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Requesting the CSM to ask CCP to remove Jump Fatigue

First post First post
Author
Ripcord Zarrek
#201 - 2015-05-21 21:23:57 UTC
I have to agree that the jump bridge fatigue is insanely stupid. I'm willing to accept jump fatigue and all that but having fatigue for going through a JB that you alliance owns, in space you own and that you pay to fuel for each jump should not cause fatigue. JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps, we shouldnt be punished for using them.

admiral root
Red Galaxy
#202 - 2015-05-21 21:53:09 UTC
Ripcord Zarrek wrote:
JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps


And they're for the mass movement of fleets across huge distances almost instantly.

No, your rights end in optimal+2*falloff

knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#203 - 2015-05-22 15:03:29 UTC
admiral root wrote:
Ripcord Zarrek wrote:
JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps


And they're for the mass movement of fleets across huge distances almost instantly.


If you get rid of all the cool things that you can build in nullsec, people will start to question what the point of living their is.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#204 - 2015-05-22 15:17:09 UTC
Having lots of smaller groups rather than 2 ultra blocs who only have one fight a year is the very coolest of those things.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#205 - 2015-05-22 20:02:07 UTC
Jump bridges are still pretty cool things to have and use even if they're not "free".

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#206 - 2015-05-22 22:20:16 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
admiral root wrote:
Ripcord Zarrek wrote:
JBs are so we can move around easily/avoid camps


And they're for the mass movement of fleets across huge distances almost instantly.


If you get rid of all the cool things that you can build in nullsec, people will start to question what the point of living their is.


and that question is being asked.

but I do not see that the jump bridge has been 'gotten rid of' just that it has ceased to be the highway it once was and now pays the same penalty for swift movement that other methods do.

similar to the 'risk and reward' mantra is 'power and cost'

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

Reeses Peices
Doomheim
#207 - 2015-05-27 03:27:28 UTC
Mike, don't you wonder why people are leaving Eve in droves since Jump fatigue was introduced?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#208 - 2015-05-27 06:59:23 UTC
Reeses Peices wrote:
Mike, don't you wonder why people are leaving Eve in droves since Jump fatigue was introduced?


Because they pine for the good old days when 0.0 was split between 2 blocs and there was 1 big fight per year?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#209 - 2015-05-27 08:22:08 UTC
Reeses Peices wrote:
Mike, don't you wonder why people are leaving Eve in droves since Jump fatigue was introduced?


Who? I have met lots of players coming back and seen a few go out the door but 'droves' implies a major exodus. PL closing down? They certainly would have a reason to if we took all their fun away

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Pandemic_Legion/stats

nope

Oh, Maybe it is the goons who are leaving to play H1S3 or whatever it is called

http://evemaps.dotlan.net/alliance/Goonswarm_Federation/stats

Oho, yeah drop in numbers right then in . . . May. 7 months later . . . well I guess their news sources are a little slow.

Reeses, have you quit? Or have you adapted? Have you noticed that Caps are being used? Blown Up? That there is action and battles and hotdrops and ambushes still happening? Or is that just exiting players liquidating their assets in big explosions?

Show me the droves.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#210 - 2015-05-27 14:01:04 UTC  |  Edited by: knobber Jobbler
I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest.

Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#211 - 2015-05-27 15:03:51 UTC
Sylphy wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
At which point you are better off using a jump clone that uses no fuel and requires no friend/alt to light cynos for you.


Exactly. But people are coming up with ideas on how to evade Jump Fatigue with an excuse that "Logistics movements shouldn't be penalized" but "warlike things should".


Right, because logistics and war have nothing to do with each other. Blink

knobbler Jobbler wrote:
Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question


So you imply that only holders of significant amounts of sov can give anything other than "opinions based on anecdotes" and then you call Malcanis passive-aggressive? Wow.

From my point of view as a gate-and-wormhole-taking scrub, I'm sure it was nice to be able to teleport hither and yon, your "taxi carrier" protected by the threat of a giant hotdrop if anyone looked at it sidelong. I'm sure it felt really good to stride across entire regions uncontested. Ah, the glory of Empire! The problem is that it sucked for everyone else.

For every cap that's been retired because New Eden is no longer a pleasant Sunday drive, how many have been fielded because they no longer have to worry about Sunday drivers from the other side of the cluster? For everyone who sold their cap alt, there's a buyer who wanted it.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#212 - 2015-05-27 15:20:52 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest.

Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue.



And your evidence that jump fatigue is the major cause is....?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Mike Azariah
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#213 - 2015-05-27 17:38:30 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest.

Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue.


Fair question. Yup, used jump bridges when with TOLE under Engarde and then SCDOT. Not recently, late 2012. Not since because I have not been part of a null alliance since then. So except for some blops work I have accumulated very litte fatigue since the effect came into being and oddly it did not seem to slow us down very much.

m

Mike Azariah  ┬──┬ ¯|(ツ)

knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#214 - 2015-05-27 23:44:00 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I think http://eve-offline.net/?server=tranquility says where we're at in current game interest.

Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question but so far in this thread I see passive aggressive former CSMs and current CSMs who I don't think have the experience in this field to give anything other than opinions based on anecdotes. Neither which are really that helpful to discussion about what is a divisive issue.



And your evidence that jump fatigue is the major cause is....?


No but I wasn't the person suggesting it was, it was in reference to the health of the game. Its purely circumstantial and the falling pcu could be many things.
knobber Jobbler
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#215 - 2015-05-27 23:59:25 UTC
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Sylphy wrote:
ShahFluffers wrote:
At which point you are better off using a jump clone that uses no fuel and requires no friend/alt to light cynos for you.


Exactly. But people are coming up with ideas on how to evade Jump Fatigue with an excuse that "Logistics movements shouldn't be penalized" but "warlike things should".


Right, because logistics and war have nothing to do with each other. Blink

knobbler Jobbler wrote:
Mike, when was the last time you used a JB? Have you ever used one? That's not a facetious question


So you imply that only holders of significant amounts of sov can give anything other than "opinions based on anecdotes" and then you call Malcanis passive-aggressive? Wow.

From my point of view as a gate-and-wormhole-taking scrub, I'm sure it was nice to be able to teleport hither and yon, your "taxi carrier" protected by the threat of a giant hotdrop if anyone looked at it sidelong. I'm sure it felt really good to stride across entire regions uncontested. Ah, the glory of Empire! The problem is that it sucked for everyone else.

For every cap that's been retired because New Eden is no longer a pleasant Sunday drive, how many have been fielded because they no longer have to worry about Sunday drivers from the other side of the cluster? For everyone who sold their cap alt, there's a buyer who wanted it.



Would you go to a plumber for informed and educated advice on how to rebuild a car engine? Would you go to a mechanic to seek advice on your latest physical ailment? If you drive a Ford should I come to you for advice on buying an Audi?

I've stated several times that the idea of restrictions on capitals and movement by way of fatigue is quite valid, however the blanket use of the mechanic without much thought given to some areas was poorly thought out and in several ways too harsh. Never at any point in this thread did I take on the black or white view point so many others have that it's all or nothing.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#216 - 2015-05-28 03:30:38 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
I've stated several times that the idea of restrictions on capitals and movement by way of fatigue is quite valid, however the blanket use of the mechanic without much thought given to some areas was poorly thought out and in several ways too harsh. Never at any point in this thread did I take on the black or white view point so many others have that it's all or nothing.

Unfortunately... the mechanics of the game are very "black and white" when it comes to this.

The ability to rapidly move from the far side of null-sec to pick up skillbooks in low-sec is mechanically NO DIFFERENT than moving from the far side of null-sec to gank some poor sob in low-sec.

The only differences between the two scenarios are the intent and end result... and a computer cannot discern your intent until it sees an end result... at which point the damage is done.


tldr; traveling quickly IS projecting power. And Jump Bridges are no different from capital jump drives in this regard. They are merely stationary.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#217 - 2015-05-28 04:06:56 UTC
knobber Jobbler wrote:
Would you go to a plumber for informed and educated advice on how to rebuild a car engine? Would you go to a mechanic to seek advice on your latest physical ailment? If you drive a Ford should I come to you for advice on buying an Audi?


This is just more obscurantism. A jump bridge isn't an internal combustion engine. A carrier isn't a human body. The ability to cross the entire cluster easily in one of the most (technically) dangerous parts of a gigantic PVP game (and call it a "taxi," as if you were just getting around midtown) is so obviously a projection of power that there's no arguing it. You know that, which is why you're trying to fluff this into some arcane issue that only the Illuminati know enough to ponder.

Get real. It takes about 10 minutes to get up to speed on this issue. Even Blizzard eventually figured out that hey, maybe letting players fly willy-nilly over all of their content is dumb. It feels great, and players get hooked on the experience, but it's killing the game.

knobber Jobbler wrote:
I've stated several times that the idea of restrictions on capitals and movement by way of fatigue is quite valid, however the blanket use of the mechanic without much thought given to some areas was poorly thought out and in several ways too harsh. Never at any point in this thread did I take on the black or white view point so many others have that it's all or nothing.


But you also dodge any attempt to get a specific example that passes the laugh test. Whether you ever used it or not, your taxi enjoyed the implicit protection of a hot drop by the biggest power in the game--better protection than Yellow Cab gets from NYPD. Your logistics runs and your repositioning are intrinsically military. I really shouldn't have to explain to a Goon that logistics are strategically and tactically vital: you guys have the best logistics in the game. There's no separating these roles because there's no separation to be found.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#218 - 2015-05-28 10:54:58 UTC
Still waiting for a suggestion that isn't either pinky-swear or whargle garble.

When you come up with one, let's continue the discussion then.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

General Xenophon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#219 - 2015-06-02 16:42:20 UTC  |  Edited by: General Xenophon
Thorn Galen wrote:
It is pointless, irritating and there are more would-be pilots spinning ships in stations now than ever before.
CCP have already reduced Jump ranges for jump-capable ships.
Jump fatigue is just going to diminish Fleet content.

Really, I doubt I am the only person who feels the same.

Get rid of Jump Fatigue, it serves no constructive purpose in EVE.


Let me add a little story so far, mostly for humor, mostly for venting, mostly because CCP are all Humans are honestly aren't out to ruin their game (they love it too) and honestly, because it happened (in no particular order, and missing several other eye-wateringly cringe worthy 'balance' changes):
__________________________________________

"CCP: Oh! Let’s add a massive ship called a Titan which will cost a ton to build and make, do massive eye-watering-boner-inducing area of effect dps, allow it to jump fleets in while staying in place, and to shoot the doomsday through the cyno to the other end without having to be on the field!
Players: Yay! Let’s build 70 of these and bring them all to a fight!
CCP: Oh… we didn’t think about this very well. *Nerf*
___________________________________________

CCP: Oh! Let’s add carriers and let them carry ships, and ammo, and be awesome support capitals!
Players: Yay! Let’s use them to carry stuff within haulers to make 0.0 logistics easier!
CCP: Oh… we didn’t think about this very well. *Nerf*
___________________________________________

CCP: Oh! Let’s add Motherships! They’ll be the pride of all drone ships and completely kickbutt with a great name, epic dps, and essentially a giant drone weapon platform.
Players: Yay! Let’s camp low sec with these, fight epic capital battles with them, and solo plexes with epic drone dps!
CCP: Oh… we didn’t think about this very well. *Nerf!*
___________________________________________

CCP: Oh! Let’s add jump bridges and Jump freighters to make eve Logistics more interesting and easier!
Players: Yay! Let’s colonize whole regions back to back so we can travel the billion hours it takes to cross Eve, within a few minutes and make 0.0 logistics almost bearable!
CCP: Oh… we didn’t think about this very well. *Nerf!*
___________________________________________

CCP: Oh! Let’s continually re balance 0.0 sov mechanics to allow more alliances ‘access’ to colonizing 0.0!
Players: Yay! Let’s just form giant coalitions and split Eve into 4-5 parts.
CCP: Oh… we didn’t think about this very well. *Nerf*

_________________________________________

All said.. this jump fatigue thing is probably one of the worst changes to Eve since the Mothership debacle and item-shop-of-horrors fiasco.

The Eve Universe is HUGE, so unless this change is entirely to prove Yatzi right in his Escapist video - dated but still can ring true in many ways about how hard and slow it is to get around in Eve (and how the game is like a game that rewards you for not playing), then this change is completely terrible.

Also, using the logic about a null-argument about why jump fatigue is """""""necessary""""""", why do Jumpgates not give fatigue? Note: don't do this, it's obviously not a suggestion. What 'science' is behind that yet every other form of jumping causes fatigue (apparently - I just returned to Eve to find out about this nonsense).

Why have jump bridges at all now? Why have capital ships in Eve? We keep nerfing them anyway so why not get rid of them all-together? Note: again, please don't add this idea so you can lemming off the 'balance' cliff.

I'll admit, I like the going through jumpgates with a super or carrier - that's pretty cool, thank you CCP., but this fatigue thing combined with a reduction in range, makes the change more of a negative than a positive - also didn't think about the MASSIVE bumpage that would happen when x number of supers come charging through a gate eh?

Don't even make the 'sov mechanics' argument, as that's utter crap and shouldn't require nerfing the crap out of capitals via jump-trolltigue and breaking jump networks.

Apparently instead of "Rock, Paper, Scissiors", to CCP this is "Rock, Glue, Nerf."


*nerdrage over until next major game breaking change that CCP adds*
General Xenophon
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#220 - 2015-06-02 18:27:48 UTC  |  Edited by: General Xenophon
Posts by CSM defending such blatant and massive broken game breaking changes completely erase any faith I had in CSM. Boo hoo oh well. This change is entirely indefensible and logic used to support CCP on this is extremely ridiculous and ignores the facts on the ground that this change is overwhelmingly bad and hated by the Eve community.

Where did this idea of fatigue even come from? Was there a vote or did players ask for jump fatigue? I could have just missed it, so any links would be great.

Also, CSM you were voted in to help be a voice for players and to help make the game better - so why would defend something which obviously breaks a major and established mechanic for over a decade now? Do you genuinely think this jump fatigue is actually a complete answer to current balancing issues, is a positive change, and has received overwhelmingly positive player response?

If so, sounds like a FIFA revote to me Twisted

But corbexx, we love you, why you no love us? Sad