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Dev Blog: Long-Distance Travel Changes Inbound

First post First post First post
Author
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6401 - 2014-10-04 09:35:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Dea Doughmaker wrote:
Rowells wrote:
well, the existing changes help with that immensely. having all supers in place is now risky to anywhere they are not so i say let them. if a group wants to leave the backdoor open and put all of its cards down on the table, let them. Unless you want to make 250 fleet members another requirement to owning a titan (a personal asset btw). it seems very restricting to player choice rather than beneficial to anyone in particular.


current changes are stupid cos they increase idle time. this game has too much idle time. I wont be waiting 3 hours to get into engagement.

then dont. fly a different ship. use a gate. no one is forcing you to stay in whatever ship youre in (unless you are in a super then I have a little sympathy, but not too much since 99% chance you have alts to use).

Aslo your proposal means people will have to wait on anywhere from 10-250 to show up before they can be useful so kinda conterproductive.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#6402 - 2014-10-04 09:37:00 UTC
uziel99 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Suzuka A1 wrote:

B) But what about moving all the cyno alts? Or the need for twice as many cyno alts?


If you live deep down in 00 (ie. after Phoebe more than 2 mids away from Low sec), you then must depend on others and cannot do your logistics alone anymore. Yay for more forced encouraged cooperation and risk when you chose (allowed yourself the laps to trust/depend on) the wrong cyno person and have a Suddenly Spaceships experience on your carrier/JF in midspace. But more cooperation and less lone-warriors is definitely a more pronounced and overt requirement to live in deeper Sov 00 or many NPC 00.


So, it's your game to play however you want, until you choose to exclude others.

Because screw self reliance, moving multi-billion isk defenseless ships in a game full of sociopaths and thieves should be a community activity. So take gates, because we, the developers, want you loosing things through no fault of your own. /sarcasm

In the hopes you will buy plex to replace what was no longer worth 7 bill in the first place.


You get what you ask for (asking here meant literally (daily sov revamp threads in F&ID, anyone) as well as figuratively (player behavior ingame that made the game a boring place).

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#6403 - 2014-10-04 09:38:42 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
uziel99 wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Suzuka A1 wrote:

B) But what about moving all the cyno alts? Or the need for twice as many cyno alts?


If you live deep down in 00 (ie. after Phoebe more than 2 mids away from Low sec), you then must depend on others and cannot do your logistics alone anymore. Yay for more forced encouraged cooperation and risk when you chose (allowed yourself the laps to trust/depend on) the wrong cyno person and have a Suddenly Spaceships experience on your carrier/JF in midspace. But more cooperation and less lone-warriors is definitely a more pronounced and overt requirement to live in deeper Sov 00 or many NPC 00.


So, it's your game to play however you want, until you choose to exclude others.

Because screw self reliance, moving multi-billion isk defenseless ships in a game full of sociopaths and thieves should be a community activity. So take gates, because we, the developers, want you loosing things through no fault of your own. /sarcasm

In the hopes you will buy plex to replace what was no longer worth 7 bill in the first place.


You get what you ask for (asking here meant literally (daily sov revamp threads in F&ID, anyone) as well as figuratively (player behavior ingame that made the game a boring place).

those parentheses.....grrr
Riven Alteritus
Liberty Logistics Company
#6404 - 2014-10-04 09:38:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Riven Alteritus
Dea Doughmaker wrote:

current changes are stupid cos they increase idle time. this game has too much idle time. I wont be waiting 3 hours to get into engagement.



Actually... It decreases idle time for capitals, NOW you can take your ship out to rat without having to worry about getting dropped by 200 people. So cap pilots can now do more than just sit at a pos waiting for a fleet.

As far as engagements it's good to see that over all, not everyone will be there. Decrease in power projection and liquidation of coalitions.

Basically, CCP got tired of the coalition's bullcrap.
Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#6405 - 2014-10-04 09:41:03 UTC
Klown Walk wrote:
So some people are qutting because they can't instantly teleport all over eve and have to fly like everyone else that doesn't use a cap.


For some people its more of a "I spent 2 years training this ship, invested 3b+ into the hull and fitting alone not to mention skill books and such and im still not even perfected, and then literally overnight everything you trained it to do becomes useless, carriers were trained in most cases not to drop 300 of them on a thorax but to instead move ships over great distances where jump freighters werent viable either because of Risk or range." Its more of a huge slap in the face to capital pilots in general to pull the rug out from people like this. Im a carrier pilot yes, do i drop 300 of them ? Nope 3 at the max and thats my alts anyways, I support these changes because im settled down in a nice spot with decent jump range even at 5au and now no longer have to fear PL / BL quite as much as i did before given the fact i live a few feet from under their nose. plus the immediate benefit of low sec is no real need for extensive logistics, high sec is no more than 8 jumps away on a bad day.

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Riven Alteritus
Liberty Logistics Company
#6406 - 2014-10-04 09:56:22 UTC
Christopher Mabata wrote:


For some people its more of a "I spent 2 years training this ship, invested 3b+ into the hull and fitting alone not to mention skill books and such and im still not even perfected, and then literally overnight everything you trained it to do becomes useless, carriers were trained in most cases not to drop 300 of them on a thorax but to instead move ships over great distances where jump freighters werent viable either because of Risk or range." Its more of a huge slap in the face to capital pilots in general to pull the rug out from people like this. Im a carrier pilot yes, do i drop 300 of them ? Nope 3 at the max and thats my alts anyways, I support these changes because im settled down in a nice spot with decent jump range even at 5au and now no longer have to fear PL / BL quite as much as i did before given the fact i live a few feet from under their nose. plus the immediate benefit of low sec is no real need for extensive logistics, high sec is no more than 8 jumps away on a bad day.



Excatly... Caps were not meant to be blobed, but what did CFC, PL, BL, and the rest of the big alliances do? Exactly what caps were not meant to do. They did this to themselves, they took advantage of an exploit and abused sov space with it. Now CCP is doing something about this game breaking mechanic and unfortunately it will greatly limit the ability of jumping around a lot. But I'm sure this will be revisited and balanced out. But a door stop had to be placed on the power projection abuse taking place in TQ atm. Enough is enough.
Crimsons Storm
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6407 - 2014-10-04 09:56:57 UTC
If changes are made to jump skills is CCP planning on reimbursing those of us that have invested massive amounts of time training them??

Its not as if the ability to efficiently travel across the galaxy come cheaply and easily
JDC 5 x 4 characters
JFC 5 x 4 characters
JF 5 x 2 characters
Carrier 5 (all bar one race on one toon, other toons are (were) training)
Additional navigation skills….to numerous and tedious to mention

and that's just me...

All of this come at a dollar value cost + time and now you’re going to short those of us that paid the cost ($ubscription + time) to move around efficiently.

I get change is needed maybe:
some sort of timer , minus fatigue component
some sort of traffic control on the systems themselves


Let’s be honest, this change is a shot at super blobs….maybe that were u need to focus you changes.

Logistics is hard enough as it is without these counterintuitive ideas that fail to address the elephant in the room (ie the 200 man super blob that goes from EC- to FAT in 2 mins when the batsignal goes up)
Prince Kobol
#6408 - 2014-10-04 09:57:28 UTC
Riven Alteritus wrote:
Dea Doughmaker wrote:

current changes are stupid cos they increase idle time. this game has too much idle time. I wont be waiting 3 hours to get into engagement.



Actually... It decreases idle time for capitals, NOW you can take your ship out to rat without having to worry about getting dropped by 200 people. So cap pilots can now do more than just sit at a pos waiting for a fleet.

As far as engagements it's good to see that over all, not everyone will be there. Decrease in power projection and liquidation of coalitions.

Basically, CCP got tired of the coalition's bullcrap.


Most people in null hate the current meta however this will not weaken the coalitions, it will do the opposite.

Sure you can take your small fleet out with a big decrease in risk from a Cap Fleet being drop on you, instead you will have a 250+ Subcap fleet with no way to counter it and you will not be able to get any reinforcements in time and you can't attack their home system because it is defended by a massive capital fleet.

Prince Kobol
#6409 - 2014-10-04 10:03:26 UTC
Riven Alteritus wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:


For some people its more of a "I spent 2 years training this ship, invested 3b+ into the hull and fitting alone not to mention skill books and such and im still not even perfected, and then literally overnight everything you trained it to do becomes useless, carriers were trained in most cases not to drop 300 of them on a thorax but to instead move ships over great distances where jump freighters werent viable either because of Risk or range." Its more of a huge slap in the face to capital pilots in general to pull the rug out from people like this. Im a carrier pilot yes, do i drop 300 of them ? Nope 3 at the max and thats my alts anyways, I support these changes because im settled down in a nice spot with decent jump range even at 5au and now no longer have to fear PL / BL quite as much as i did before given the fact i live a few feet from under their nose. plus the immediate benefit of low sec is no real need for extensive logistics, high sec is no more than 8 jumps away on a bad day.



Excatly... Caps were not meant to be blobed, but what did CFC, PL, BL, and the rest of the big alliances do? Exactly what caps were not meant to do. They did this to themselves, they took advantage of an exploit and abused sov space with it. Now CCP is doing something about this game breaking mechanic and unfortunately it will greatly limit the ability of jumping around a lot. But I'm sure this will be revisited and balanced out. But a door stop had to be placed on the power projection abuse taking place in TQ atm. Enough is enough.



You need to look up the definition of the word exploit.

Also this just shows how many times CCP have introduced a mechanic only to be completely turned around by the player base.

Look back over the last 5 years and with every change they have made who has benefited the most.. CFC / NC / PL

Why, because CCP are hopeless when it comes to trying to figure out what we the players will do.

People forget why Capital Fleets become the new meta.

They came about because it was the only counter to the huge Alpha Battleships that were being used at the time and they massively reduced the time it took to grind structures with millions of EHP.

Sure CCP may make changes to structures but this change does nothing to stop those huge Alpha Battleship fleets making a come back.

Only this time it will be worse.. a lot worse.
Terminator Cindy
Yesterday's Tomorrow
#6410 - 2014-10-04 10:04:35 UTC
Mike Azariah wrote:
Gonna be a bumpy ride.
I will be collecting relevant comments in this small bag over here, tears in the tanker, over there.
m
Oh and if you are quitting may I be the first to ask for at least some of your stuff
tia


I am sorry to say but this is hardly something i would expect from a CSM. You know you are supposed to represent players not enjoy if they leave and invite them to give you their stuff ?
Momitsu
Deep Exploration Projects and Programs
#6411 - 2014-10-04 10:06:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Momitsu
Prince Kobol wrote:


Most people in null hate the current meta however this will not weaken the coalitions, it will do the opposite.

Sure you can take your small fleet out with a big decrease in risk from a Cap Fleet being drop on you, instead you will have a 250+ Subcap fleet with no way to counter it and you will not be able to get any reinforcements in time and you can't attack their home system because it is defended by a massive capital fleet.



And where will that lead to?

Empires will shrink because you can't defend systems far away as easy as of now. Homesystems will be more strengthened.
It's more difficult to wipe out someone else completely but it leaves more space for new and smaller groups with their concentrated local force.

Mission accomplished

Regarding those alpha fleets...you will loose them to the local capital fleets.
Who wants to travel every evening a lot of jumps in a fat and slow bs? Your logistics won't be able to bring unlimited replacements to every point on the map within minutes
Riven Alteritus
Liberty Logistics Company
#6412 - 2014-10-04 10:09:52 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Riven Alteritus wrote:
Dea Doughmaker wrote:

current changes are stupid cos they increase idle time. this game has too much idle time. I wont be waiting 3 hours to get into engagement.



Actually... It decreases idle time for capitals, NOW you can take your ship out to rat without having to worry about getting dropped by 200 people. So cap pilots can now do more than just sit at a pos waiting for a fleet.

As far as engagements it's good to see that over all, not everyone will be there. Decrease in power projection and liquidation of coalitions.

Basically, CCP got tired of the coalition's bullcrap.


Most people in null hate the current meta however this will not weaken the coalitions, it will do the opposite.

Sure you can take your small fleet out with a big decrease in risk from a Cap Fleet being drop on you, instead you will have a 250+ Subcap fleet with no way to counter it and you will not be able to get any reinforcements in time and you can't attack their home system because it is defended by a massive capital fleet.



This is the problem. Everyone is looking at this in the micro scale. So what if 250 people come and attack you? What happens to the systems they left to attack in the first place? Who's gonna stop another group from attacking said undefended systems? This is no longer a 4 way fight. This will turn into a hundred way fight, so putting that into perspective, there WON'T be 250 people available to leave their systems to fight a single group, because the risk of being invaded has increased now that caps and jumping is limited. And with that coalitions might stick around, but they wont be holding as much space as before, for keeping tabs on all that space would greatly weaken their overall capability to assist each other.

And who says you cant counter a 250 man fleet? Get in good terms with your neighbor, and when you attack a system, they attack another. 125 people per system now... what happens if there's a 3rd attacker out somewhere else? 83 now.... You can hold the largest group of people in game, but with the amount of space being held, there's not enough people to defend the current sov boundaries, allowing people to move in as a group. No matter whether there's 500 people in one system, there's sure to be less at the other side.

So let's stop thinking micro scale here. With the changes there won't be 4 groups fighting for massive territories. Instead we'll see tens if not hundreds of groups fighting for their own small pocket which they are capable of defending, if not migrating sov pockets will happen as well. This will be a fresh change to the game.
Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#6413 - 2014-10-04 10:18:01 UTC
Riven Alteritus wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:


For some people its more of a "I spent 2 years training this ship, invested 3b+ into the hull and fitting alone not to mention skill books and such and im still not even perfected, and then literally overnight everything you trained it to do becomes useless, carriers were trained in most cases not to drop 300 of them on a thorax but to instead move ships over great distances where jump freighters werent viable either because of Risk or range." Its more of a huge slap in the face to capital pilots in general to pull the rug out from people like this. Im a carrier pilot yes, do i drop 300 of them ? Nope 3 at the max and thats my alts anyways, I support these changes because im settled down in a nice spot with decent jump range even at 5au and now no longer have to fear PL / BL quite as much as i did before given the fact i live a few feet from under their nose. plus the immediate benefit of low sec is no real need for extensive logistics, high sec is no more than 8 jumps away on a bad day.



Excatly... Caps were not meant to be blobed, but what did CFC, PL, BL, and the rest of the big alliances do? Exactly what caps were not meant to do. They did this to themselves, they took advantage of an exploit and abused sov space with it. Now CCP is doing something about this game breaking mechanic and unfortunately it will greatly limit the ability of jumping around a lot. But I'm sure this will be revisited and balanced out. But a door stop had to be placed on the power projection abuse taking place in TQ atm. Enough is enough.


Calling it an exploit is a step too far, its an applied game mechanic but it was taken to new levels CCP couldn't possibly have predicted when they created the ships years ago like titans. Yes we did this to ourselves, and in one of the trailers a narrator says, " Greed is so destructive, and creation so precious" and he had that sheeeeet on point. If you dont think so your living under a rokh ( pun pun pun )

well our greed got the best of us this time, we stifled creation so much it had to be this way and we have nobody to blame but ourselves for it either, we created the doctrines, we dropped 400 dreads, we made power projection through carriers and supers this bad.

or if you dont like blaming yourself blame Goons, because blaming goons has been the meta since BOB took an extended vacation

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Riven Alteritus
Liberty Logistics Company
#6414 - 2014-10-04 10:18:02 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Riven Alteritus wrote:
Christopher Mabata wrote:


For some people its more of a "I spent 2 years training this ship, invested 3b+ into the hull and fitting alone not to mention skill books and such and im still not even perfected, and then literally overnight everything you trained it to do becomes useless, carriers were trained in most cases not to drop 300 of them on a thorax but to instead move ships over great distances where jump freighters werent viable either because of Risk or range." Its more of a huge slap in the face to capital pilots in general to pull the rug out from people like this. Im a carrier pilot yes, do i drop 300 of them ? Nope 3 at the max and thats my alts anyways, I support these changes because im settled down in a nice spot with decent jump range even at 5au and now no longer have to fear PL / BL quite as much as i did before given the fact i live a few feet from under their nose. plus the immediate benefit of low sec is no real need for extensive logistics, high sec is no more than 8 jumps away on a bad day.



Excatly... Caps were not meant to be blobed, but what did CFC, PL, BL, and the rest of the big alliances do? Exactly what caps were not meant to do. They did this to themselves, they took advantage of an exploit and abused sov space with it. Now CCP is doing something about this game breaking mechanic and unfortunately it will greatly limit the ability of jumping around a lot. But I'm sure this will be revisited and balanced out. But a door stop had to be placed on the power projection abuse taking place in TQ atm. Enough is enough.



You need to look up the definition of the word exploit.

Also this just shows how many times CCP have introduced a mechanic only to be completely turned around by the player base.

Look back over the last 5 years and with every change they have made who has benefited the most.. CFC / NC / PL

Why, because CCP are hopeless when it comes to trying to figure out what we the players will do.

People forget why Capital Fleets become the new meta.

They came about because it was the only counter to the huge Alpha Battleships that were being used at the time and they massively reduced the time it took to grind structures with millions of EHP.

Sure CCP may make changes to structures but this change does nothing to stop those huge Alpha Battleship fleets making a come back.

Only this time it will be worse.. a lot worse.



When a game mechanic is abused, it can very well be considered an exploit. So there you have it.

It's not about the metas, it's about sov space and the inability of smaller unaffiliated groups taking sov for themselves without having the lackeys pushing them back with Nk (n being a variable) man fleets and hundreds of caps at their disposal. Now moving your entire fleet to one side of the galaxy WILL have it's effects, more than likely undefended systems. Who can take advantage of that? Anyone with the ability to gather a few tens of people to bash towers for hours before the defense shows up. So big alliances will lose out on this. HARD, and that's good. Don't like it? Too f'in bad, **** just hit the fan and you're on the receiving end.
Irya Boone
The Scope
#6415 - 2014-10-04 10:28:37 UTC
for example do you remember what happened when all CFC was fighting in one region ..and some one decided to stab them in the back CFC just opened the checkbook ...

this will happen again and again

CCP it's time to remove Off Grid Boost and Put Them on Killmail too, add Logi on killmails .... Open that damn door !!

you shall all bow and pray BoB

Bl1SkR1N
13th HOUR
#6416 - 2014-10-04 10:32:23 UTC
Irya Boone wrote:
for example do you remember what happened when all CFC was fighting in one region ..and some one decided to stab them in the back CFC just opened the checkbook ...

this will happen again and again

you should change your corp name
Christopher Mabata
Cynosural Edge
Curatores Veritatis Alliance
#6417 - 2014-10-04 10:36:33 UTC
Bl1SkR1N wrote:
Irya Boone wrote:
for example do you remember what happened when all CFC was fighting in one region ..and some one decided to stab them in the back CFC just opened the checkbook ...

this will happen again and again

you should change your corp name


or consider moving to deep J-Space where locator agents dare to tread, where the light ends and the darkness wallows
Watch out though i hear there are Scary Wormhole people in there

♣ Small Gang PVP, Large Fleet PVP, Black Ops, Incursions, Trade, and Industry ♣ 70% Lethal / 30% Super-Snuggly / 110% No idea what im doing ♣

This Message Brought to you by a sweet and sour bittervet

Gregor Parud
Imperial Academy
#6418 - 2014-10-04 10:39:25 UTC
322 pages of "this doesn't affect us at all, but CCP really shouldn't do this because of :reasons:".
Panther X
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#6419 - 2014-10-04 10:41:19 UTC
Here's something I just thought of. Maybe someone attached this to one of the 45 kajillion posts before me but there you go.

So now what if you decide its time for a break from Eve (god forbid)

Those of us who are in null who decide to leave nullsec for awhile and move our assets to lowsec/empire are basically fuckeried in the goatass. How the hell are we supposed to move our assets out now? It will take a month to get out of deep null. Letting my bare ass hang in the breeze is something I dont want to do (it does get sweaty under this robe but lets not go there)

I for one think that this huge sweeping change is one that should be tabled for a later date. Sure, I agree that changes need to be made to sov and to force projection, but this is heavy handed and ill conceived. One change at a time. Jump timers? Sure put that in now. Let us get used to that, let us learn how to deal with that mechanic before you throw a completely new mechanic like fatigue at us. This is just wrong at this point. DO NOT DO THIS AttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttentionAttention

There are other ways that you can slow down force projection, but give us time to get used to it. You will alienate your biggest player group by hog tying, ball-gagging get-the-gimp-and-anal-raping capital pilots. FFS at least give us a little lube first.



My Titan smells of rich Corinthian Leather...

Giribaldi
Perkone
Caldari State
#6420 - 2014-10-04 10:42:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Giribaldi
Look, I agree with the change how ever I disagree with the implementation.
Step 1 initiate a max jump fatigue.

Step 2 make the fatigue harder to accumulate.

Step 3 add a skill.

Step 4 fatigue doesn't affect the time between jumps but instead once at max fatigue you are forced to wait for your fatigue level to go down.

Step 5 make a jump timer of 5 minutes per jump so as to keep a fleet from moving to quickly through the universe as well as increase risk to super flyby.

Step 6. Keep jump freighters and rorqual jump distances as they are now. So as to not **** all logistics in the game Sept big alliances with huge infrastructure.

Final Step. Change all jump skills except fuel conserve to something useful because you just made 90% of eve who wasted 90 days training lol 5 jump skills pissed cus with this change they would gain on the lol 4 to 5 on jump call a whole .24 LY. Good job.