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Fuel blocks! (and CCP Soundwaves wildlife safety advice)

First post First post
Author
hellz bringer
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#321 - 2011-12-12 08:06:00 UTC
Icarus Helia wrote:
hellz bringer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
OFFICIAL NOTICE: DUE TO COMPLETELY SCREWING UP ....... CHRISTMAS LEAVE HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR "various key people" SO THIS CAN BE PUT RIGHT.


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.



You get payed for what you do, we do not. There is a big difference here and you should not even be making that comparison.


go to your job, and live there for a month. don't go home. then tell him burnout doesn't exist.

a small number of people are being appreciative or at least trying to come up with a new plan, but so many more are whining and complaining or generally being unappreciative. This though - this is grade-A douchebaggery.

he's right, this isn't really a crisis, and nobody should be cancelling their holiday plans because you had to haul some fuel because you made a ridiculous bet and lost.



maybe find a new job if you dont like it?
Jackie Fisher
Syrkos Technologies
Joint Venture Conglomerate
#322 - 2011-12-12 09:00:34 UTC
Switch off POS fuel consumption for a couple of weeks to give people time to sort out their logistics and some compensation for the hassle. Big smile

Fear God and Thread Nought

Pasha Cracken
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#323 - 2011-12-12 09:00:49 UTC
I see people are still crying about the change date.
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2011-12-12 09:48:22 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.
...
It gets a lot easier once you learn to stop taking any of it remotely personally Smile


Speaking only for meself:

Despide the fact that I'm "not amused" with this Fuel Block Situation, I prefere it over "Offline Towers" or putting
Code into Production you know it is buggy!

It would be nice to know what the status of your "increase the fuel cargohold for the time beeing or forever"-Project is? (something like: "working on it", "canceld", "will be deployed bevor x-mas" or "we have a better idea" is enough)

I also have a Idea how to "improve" this situation:
create a contract for each tower including 30 days of Fuel and use the prices 5 days bevor anouncing this for calculate the isk we have to pay.
(would be a nice ISK sink, wouldn't it?)

Nevertheless:

You all should have a nice vacation and fly save. ;)

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Aldarean
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#325 - 2011-12-12 10:26:21 UTC
Pasha Cracken wrote:
I see people are still crying about the change date.


Yes people are, the POS fuel date was a big issue. I don't mind as got fuel organised for a good 3/4 months.

Considering that the carrier re-balance at this time was well over 100 pages, nearly 200. I don't think 17 pages are to bad.

CCP you have done fantastice job in last 3 months. And deserve a break, go forth and get hangovers. Please find a quick fix though for the POS until end of January please.
Jokke Jr
JJ Express
#326 - 2011-12-12 10:36:20 UTC
To all the WH dwellers out there .
I know out of experience it is a pain to bring the stuff in and Yes I also got Ffing mad when I heard the 24 th .
But then again... it means we have something to look forward to and admit we got more time to plan it all .

Some of us might even profit from selling of the Blocks at HIGH profits.
EVE won't stop due to this delay . Our POS shield might have if the code ain't right .

To CCP :

Go and enjoy your well deserved X-mas holidays.
Come back with cleared heads and make us something to look forward to .
This last Patch was done well , and truly made our life easier .
Thanks for a Great Year .
Keep going and keep involving us in what your plan to do .

side note
My wife came home one evening and said . I know you have a mistress ........ a very demanding one even ..........
I went **** she knows ...... but had to ask . Oh really and what is her name . She didn't hesitate for 1 sec ..... EVE
was here answer .

Aldarean
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#327 - 2011-12-12 10:47:56 UTC
Icarus Helia wrote:
are people still whining because they converted their entire stocks of fuel way too early?

reduction in pos fuel costs or removal of it would be a tremendously bad idea s mentioned earlier - rich will get even richer, poor might skate by with a couple extra hundred mil.

you hauling types who went and converted all the fuel you had based on a guesstimate instead of a more modest "meh, halfish?" approach - shame on you. Wait for a hard date next time, and get over it.


Which is better and more balanced on the way things play out now. Right now poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer. Prices of everything will sky rocket.

Atleast a "POS fuel amnesty" will allow market values to stabilise, and everyone can make a little
money. Win, win situation for everyone.

Fuel will still be bought sold and mined. So market will still chug along nicely.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#328 - 2011-12-12 11:59:36 UTC
hellz bringer wrote:

maybe find a new job if you dont like it?


I loved my old winter job doing Ski Patrol. I love skiing, I love EMS, and I love being outdoors and getting paid. But by the end of the season, if I have to go out in one more whiteout to find a lost drunk/rig safety rope/rescue some *******, I' be ready to stab someone. Burnout's a real thing, and the short intensity of a Ski season meant I was working 6-7 days a week for 10 hour days. I lost weight, got pissed at everything, but after about a week of the season being over, I had recharged my batteries and all of a sudden I missed getting out and stabilizing a shattered leg in a sub-zero blizzard. And I'd do it all again.

Nobody can do any job without ever taking a break, and a high stress, high workload job requires more downtime than most. A game designer for a large MMO with a massive, demanding playerbase seems to fit the bill for being a high stress, high workload job.

tl;dr If you want dev's with more than 9months experience in being an EVE Dev, let them have their vacation in peace.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#329 - 2011-12-12 12:03:33 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
hellz bringer wrote:

maybe find a new job if you dont like it?

...tl;dr If you want dev's with more than 9months experience in being an EVE Dev, let them have their vacation in peace.


QFT!

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Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#330 - 2011-12-12 14:15:22 UTC
hellz bringer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
OFFICIAL NOTICE: DUE TO COMPLETELY SCREWING UP ....... CHRISTMAS LEAVE HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR "various key people" SO THIS CAN BE PUT RIGHT.


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.



You get payed for what you do, we do not. There is a big difference here and you should not even be making that comparison.


Not only is Greyscale correct, but he's also being gentile enough to not blatantly call you a self-entitled basement dwelling obnoxious little prick. Since I find his example refreshing, I'll to the same.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Icarus Helia
Mosh Pit
THE BESTICLES
#331 - 2011-12-12 14:54:41 UTC
Aldarean wrote:
Icarus Helia wrote:
are people still whining because they converted their entire stocks of fuel way too early?

reduction in pos fuel costs or removal of it would be a tremendously bad idea s mentioned earlier - rich will get even richer, poor might skate by with a couple extra hundred mil.

you hauling types who went and converted all the fuel you had based on a guesstimate instead of a more modest "meh, halfish?" approach - shame on you. Wait for a hard date next time, and get over it.


Which is better and more balanced on the way things play out now. Right now poor will get poorer, the rich will get richer. Prices of everything will sky rocket.

Atleast a "POS fuel amnesty" will allow market values to stabilise, and everyone can make a little
money. Win, win situation for everyone.

Fuel will still be bought sold and mined. So market will still chug along nicely.


Free reactions, no fuel expenses - that sounds like a good plan to you for an entire month? ice miners will get screwed even more than they already are courtesy of the bots, and anyone who just anchored a few dozen customs offices will be even more ripped off.

they wont be giving you free towers for a month.

Why you no care?

Deriah Book
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#332 - 2011-12-12 17:55:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Deriah Book
Ingvar Angst wrote:


Not only is Greyscale correct, but he's also being gentile enough to not blatantly call you a self-entitled basement dwelling obnoxious little prick. Since I find his example refreshing, I'll to the same.


Yeah.

The insults in the OP were sufficient.
Ziranda Hakuli
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#333 - 2011-12-12 20:04:08 UTC
Salaphiel wrote:
As someone running about in a WH, I'm in agreement with the rest of the sentiments from WH folks. We had managed to switch over all the fuel we had to fuel blocks with the exception of the month we had in the POS already, which now isn't enough to get us to the deadline. Soon as you allowed us to put fuel blocks in the POS it just made logical sense for any reasonable POS manager to assume that it wouldn't be long before it'd go live. Dec 13th would've been much better and certainly seemed more like what you had in mind with allowing us to put Fuel Blocks in. *sigh*

Maybe CCP is colluding with the goons and their stupid insistence on raising the price of oxygen isotopes which ironically is only annoying our HS POS.

I do, however, appreciate the firm deadline, but I do ask that in the future, you make deadlines a little more transparent much sooner. Like the day you seeded the fuel block BPO would've been a great day for that.


LOL.

The GOONs had to learn from somewhere. Everyone who knew that the fuel blocks seed date and 2 weeks from that we were converting over to it. Shot its being a pain to try and make sure i got enough fuel now and i am in 0.0 and logistics is just a nightmare right now
Letrange
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#334 - 2011-12-12 20:54:49 UTC
Dear CCP

Re: your communications issues.

After the Dev Blogs led expectations for the fuel switch over to be a short order (around 2 weeks in the 2nd blog) after BPO seeding, the following is NOT the way to communicate a delay.

CCP Soundwave wrote:
Starbase structures begin consuming fuel blocks exclusively on January 24th. Hopefully this timeline will allow you to build up a sizable stock of blocks, without ruining your Christmas. I’m sure your family will appreciate you not bringing your laptop to the Christmas dinner to start production jobs. Please keep in mind that on the day of the switch, POSs will ONLY consume fuel blocks and all the old items will no longer keep the starbase going.

On a slightly related note, here is a quick piece of wildlife advice that could save you or a loved one: If bitten by a snake, avoid attempting to suck out the poison from the wound, like seen in movies. You’ll remove insignificant quantities of poison, while transferring bacteria to the wound and subjecting yourself to the risk of getting poisoned. Instead, call for help and arrange transport to the nearest hospital emergency room. Like with bears, the safest bet is staying away from poisonous snakes in the first place.

We might be able to sneak a few more changes in, but for now, this is the timeframe for fuel blocks. Enjoy.


The following:

CCP Greyscale wrote:
OK, so here's what happened.


We knew we needed at least two weeks between Crucible going live and us patching in the change, so people had time to sort out their logistics.

We can't safely do the switch between ~Decembec 17th and ~January 15th due to various key people leaving the country for Christmas, and the need for a clear run-up to the patch.

We had the patch on the 14th scheduled primarily to do this switchover, as it's effectively the last possible date before Christmas to safely do this (we don't patch later in the week because it means fallout drags into the weekend, and particularly in this case a lot of people are getting on aircraft that weekend).

Our original test plan would've seen us squared away weeks ago, but a series of various unforeseen events meant our critical "upgrade test" (requires a spare "full-sized" test server) got repeatedly bumped back in the schedule.

We finally ran the test earlier this week, and the thing we were most anticipating breaking, broke. The fix is relatively straightforward, but it requires us running another upgrade test to confirm that the fix works.

We weren't expecting the second test to be ready until today or Monday, and in the unlikely event that that didn't go smoothly it'd leave way too little time for you all to sort your towers out. Therefore we made the decision to push the deployment of the change back.

As above, once we miss the 14th we can't safely patch for at least a month. Given that we already had a small post-Crucible tidy-up patch scheduled for the 24th, we opted to bundle the fuel switch into that patch rather than running two "serious business" patches (ie, full client/server patch) less than a fortnight apart, because it's safer and causes less overhead.


It's not the way we wanted to do it, but it's the best option we have available to us right now. We're obviously very sorry for the trouble this is causing.


Should have been the first post on the subject. Much rage would have been avoided. Seriously, someone needs to sit on CCP Soundwave BEFORE he opens his mouth and inserts the contents of CCP's boot tray (leaked internal document anyone?). Especially anything industry related.
Sassaniak
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#335 - 2011-12-13 02:22:35 UTC
Dallas Makanen wrote:
So glad, so very, very glad, that I bought all of the fuel and just shoved it into a couple of offline corporate hangars without doing anything with it until we were given an explicit date now. :)


yes.

Jackie Fisher wrote:
Switch off POS fuel consumption for a couple of weeks to give people time to sort out their logistics and some compensation for the hassle. Big smile


also yes, i would like this even more.

as to everyone else,

seriously? you all expected CCP to follow a timeline? to patch on time and for things not to be broken? wtf were you thinking converting all your reserves to blocks? this is ccp we are talking about.

large alliances pos fuelers, dont you keep a reserve amount that's outside of your normal fuel stash? (if not why?) but again really? you expected CCP to not screw this up? how long have you been incharge of pos's? didnt you notice that a great many things about pos's are meh/borked? what would make this major change to pos's different?

remember WIS coming soon?

I changed enough fuel for two weeks into blocks, everything else is the same, the runs dont take very long to do when the change does happen so i would have had time to refuel with two weeks worth of leadtime, but i don't run alliance pos's in numbers so, blearg?

we should all push for Jackie Fishers idea.

...............................................................................

Sometimes, you all make me very disappointed.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#336 - 2011-12-13 03:13:25 UTC
Letrange wrote:
Dear CCP

Re: your communications issues.

After the Dev Blogs led expectations for the fuel switch over to be a short order (around 2 weeks in the 2nd blog) after BPO seeding, the following is NOT the way to communicate a delay.

CCP Soundwave wrote:


The following:

CCP Greyscale wrote:


Should have been the first post on the subject. Much rage would have been avoided. Seriously, someone needs to sit on CCP Soundwave BEFORE he opens his mouth and inserts the contents of CCP's boot tray (leaked internal document anyone?). Especially anything industry related.


This.... is probably true. That said, Soundwave's post reminds me of the convivial [email protected]$K you attitude of the Ghost of CCP Past, which I tend to enjoy.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Spiritus Placidus
EXT-suply
#337 - 2011-12-13 08:01:17 UTC
CCP told everyone to do a half and half approach to the switchover from the beginning so anyone that is whinning about this now either can't read or has some major comprehension problems. How hard is it to figure out what it takes to build half a month pf fuel blocks and leave it in the fuel bay till the switchover? Quit bitching about something they told you to do in the first place!
Sunrise Omega
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#338 - 2011-12-13 13:41:08 UTC
In this thread - a list of people who merc/grief corps should consider wardec'ing, because they're sure to give extra tears and laughs because they apparently can't plan well.

The smart thing was to produce enough fuel blocks to fill up the extra space that the devs gave you in your towers back on Cruc launch date. An extra 30k of volume in your large tower's fuel bay which you could have filled up with the new style fuel blocks, then just waited for a firmer date.

Sometimes, being proactive means sitting on your hands but with a plan in place to deal with the event once it becomes a certainty.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#339 - 2011-12-13 14:00:43 UTC
Hi everyone,

As you can see from this news item here, we got the TEMPORARY fuel bay size boost through all the relevant hoops and it's going out in the patch tomorrow.

This means that, until the 24th, your fuel bay sizes will be doubled, which should allow you to compensate for the unfortunate postponement of the fuel block switchover by just dumping another month's worth of fuel into your bay, without having to take out any blocks that you've already added.

We are at this time planning to revert these changes and reduce bay sizes back to their current (ie, post-Crucible-boost, pre-tomorrow-boost) sizes on the 24th. We appreciate that leaving them at their larger size would be well-received, but we're also aware that making substantial changes to logistics can have unforeseen consequences. We'd prefer not to significantly alter starbase logistics over the long term without having a better think about the situation.

Thanks for your time, and our apologies once again for the inconvenience this has caused.
-Greyscale
Neo Agricola
Gallente Federation
#340 - 2011-12-13 14:08:56 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Hi everyone,

As you can see from this news item here, we got the TEMPORARY fuel bay size boost through all the relevant hoops and it's going out in the patch tomorrow.
-Greyscale

Thank you very much.


CCP Greyscale wrote:

We'd prefer not to significantly alter starbase logistics over the long term without having a better think about the situation.


Please do so. And think it through!

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