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Fuel blocks! (and CCP Soundwaves wildlife safety advice)

First post First post
Author
Hurrm V'Bakshi
Divine Intervention Enterprises
#361 - 2011-12-13 19:18:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Hurrm V'Bakshi
disregard
Saarinn
C0LDFIRE
#362 - 2011-12-13 20:23:37 UTC
Thank You CCP for obliterating my plex money i worked up to compensate the vacation time with increased fuel prices and market speculators coming out of the woodwork.

Yes its good that you postponed to avoid all our towers diaf. But not only are we putting in loads of man hours to load 6 more weeks of old fuel, and paying out the nose for it, but our wallets are getting hit pretty hard.

Especially those of us that operate towers for purposes that do not generate any income, (wormholers/supercap safety/bridge points/TCU Defense/etc).

Sure we can reprocess our fuel blocks and stuff them into all of our towers... I dont know about other people but when prices are already inflated and I'm buying up fuel in advance for a change, I didnt buy a metric ton of it that would get me all the way to Jan 24th.

The reason you're getting so much flak for this ccp has nothing to do with the changes, it's the fact that those of us that are seasoned in changes in this game, are used to using every minute we have available to be ready. We dont take chances, we have toons logged in the necessary stations before deployment to get the blueprints on release. We build up a stock of fuel as soon as we can.

So most of us were sitting on job well done until we login and see "WARNING SOMETHING WRONG WITH POSES" on the login screen. I feel sorry for the Anshar pilots burning all those topes moving fuel around, I know my jf fuel stock took a dent with all the trips importing topes and pi products.

ACESsiggy
Pandemic Horde Inc.
#363 - 2011-12-13 23:28:38 UTC
Yup.. playing the game for about a year and have no clue what fuel blocks are

CheersWhat?

“The open-minded see the truth in different things: the narrow-minded see only the differences.”

Icarus Helia
State War Academy
Caldari State
#364 - 2011-12-14 00:38:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarus Helia
Saarinn wrote:
Thank You CCP for obliterating my plex money i worked up to compensate the vacation time with increased fuel prices and market speculators coming out of the woodwork.

Yes its good that you postponed to avoid all our towers diaf. But not only are we putting in loads of man hours to load 6 more weeks of old fuel, and paying out the nose for it, but our wallets are getting hit pretty hard.

Especially those of us that operate towers for purposes that do not generate any income, (wormholers/supercap safety/bridge points/TCU Defense/etc).

Sure we can reprocess our fuel blocks and stuff them into all of our towers... I dont know about other people but when prices are already inflated and I'm buying up fuel in advance for a change, I didnt buy a metric ton of it that would get me all the way to Jan 24th.

The reason you're getting so much flak for this ccp has nothing to do with the changes, it's the fact that those of us that are seasoned in changes in this game, are used to using every minute we have available to be ready. We dont take chances, we have toons logged in the necessary stations before deployment to get the blueprints on release. We build up a stock of fuel as soon as we can.

So most of us were sitting on job well done until we login and see "WARNING SOMETHING WRONG WITH POSES" on the login screen. I feel sorry for the Anshar pilots burning all those topes moving fuel around, I know my jf fuel stock took a dent with all the trips importing topes and pi products.




If you don't take chances, why did you over convert, and do all that work based on a guesstimate date rather than a set and certain one?

Why you no care?

TorTorden
Tors shibari party
#365 - 2011-12-14 01:56:45 UTC  |  Edited by: TorTorden
Nevermind I'm drunk anyways.
Joahna Gramer
Little Red Riding Hole
Wolves Amongst Strangers
#366 - 2011-12-14 02:11:09 UTC
Now, maybe i fail somewhere in my thought, then please be so kind to explain it to me, but:

If you are already able to fill in normal POS fuel and the fuel blocks at the same time, why not make the tower check if there is normal POS fuel, use this as first choice and if there is not enough of the normal POS fuel then start using the fuel blocks.
It has just to check every hour cycle if there is enough of normal fuel if not then check if there are Fuel Blocks, if yes start using.

Begin Cycle:
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> yes -> use POS fuel
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> no -> Blocks (yes/no) -> yes -> use Blocks
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> no -> Blocks (yes/no) -> no -> Tower goes offline

This would let everybody fill in the type of Fuel they want and People who already made tons of Blocks could already start using them instead of buying another Month of normal POS fuel

Regards,
Joahna

PS: In order to avoid problems with the different composition of the normal POS fuel depending on the CPU/PG usage you could just already switch other to an independent base consumption just the same as in the fuel blocks (they are still CPU/PG independent, right?)
Brynhildr Valkjeri
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#367 - 2011-12-14 02:37:50 UTC
Joahna Gramer wrote:
Now, maybe i fail somewhere in my thought, then please be so kind to explain it to me, but:

If you are already able to fill in normal POS fuel and the fuel blocks at the same time, why not make the tower check if there is normal POS fuel, use this as first choice and if there is not enough of the normal POS fuel then start using the fuel blocks.
It has just to check every hour cycle if there is enough of normal fuel if not then check if there are Fuel Blocks, if yes start using.

Begin Cycle:
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> yes -> use POS fuel
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> no -> Blocks (yes/no) -> yes -> use Blocks
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> no -> Blocks (yes/no) -> no -> Tower goes offline

This would let everybody fill in the type of Fuel they want and People who already made tons of Blocks could already start using them instead of buying another Month of normal POS fuel

Regards,
Joahna

PS: In order to avoid problems with the different composition of the normal POS fuel depending on the CPU/PG usage you could just already switch other to an independent base consumption just the same as in the fuel blocks (they are still CPU/PG independent, right?)



For some reason, that's how I understood it to work from now till the switchover. Made a stockpile, not exactly wanting to get more non-block fuel.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#368 - 2011-12-14 03:23:56 UTC
Joahna Gramer wrote:
Now, maybe i fail somewhere in my thought, then please be so kind to explain it to me, but:

If you are already able to fill in normal POS fuel and the fuel blocks at the same time, why not make the tower check if there is normal POS fuel, use this as first choice and if there is not enough of the normal POS fuel then start using the fuel blocks.
It has just to check every hour cycle if there is enough of normal fuel if not then check if there are Fuel Blocks, if yes start using.

Begin Cycle:
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> yes -> use POS fuel
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> no -> Blocks (yes/no) -> yes -> use Blocks
POS Fuel (yes/no) -> no -> Blocks (yes/no) -> no -> Tower goes offline

This would let everybody fill in the type of Fuel they want and People who already made tons of Blocks could already start using them instead of buying another Month of normal POS fuel

Regards,
Joahna

PS: In order to avoid problems with the different composition of the normal POS fuel depending on the CPU/PG usage you could just already switch other to an independent base consumption just the same as in the fuel blocks (they are still CPU/PG independent, right?)


Because there is a very good chance that trying that will make all POSes DIAF. From my understanding POS Code is terribly fragile. Remember the Free Moon Goo from POSes exploit? For over 3 YEARS, reactors didn't actually check if they were being fed inputs if they had cycled properly last time, the result: Free Moon Goo. For 3 Years. This is the type of coding POSes are run on. It's optimized for decreased server load (b/c of the hardware at the time) to such an extent that sometimes it breaks for no reason. In addition, adding this would require a test of the kind that is holding up the full switch, so this would just slow down the full switch.

I want my POSes to stay online, thankyewverymuch, CCP do all the tests you need.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#369 - 2011-12-14 03:38:09 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:


Because there is a very good chance that trying that will make all POSes DIAF. From my understanding POS Code is terribly fragile. Remember the Free Moon Goo from POSes exploit? For over 3 YEARS, reactors didn't actually check if they were being fed inputs if they had cycled properly last time, the result: Free Moon Goo. For 3 Years. This is the type of coding POSes are run on. It's optimized for decreased server load (b/c of the hardware at the time) to such an extent that sometimes it breaks for no reason. In addition, adding this would require a test of the kind that is holding up the full switch, so this would just slow down the full switch.


This x100. Any suggestion that would involve writing or changing the POS code is a non-starter, not without at least a multi-month period in which the changes could be tested and beat on on the Singularity test server. It's simply not something that is going to happen overnight. It may even be to the point where you'd have to dedicate a 6-12 month window for someone to shepherd it through the development/QA process.

Changing which fuel types get consumed by the towers - is merely a change in some data tables. Changing the size of the fuel bay (other then checking for assumptions in the code like "fuel bay can never be larger then X" or "fuel bay will never have a surplus of material") is also just a value change in a data table.

Data table value changes are cheap, inexpensive, and low risk. Changing code logic, like making towers consume either fuel blocks or the old-style fuel depending on what is available, is much higher risk and requires an order of magnitude more development time.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#370 - 2011-12-14 03:48:20 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:


Changing which fuel types get consumed by the towers - is merely a change in some data tables. Changing the size of the fuel bay (other then checking for assumptions in the code like "fuel bay can never be larger then X" or "fuel bay will never have a surplus of material") is also just a value change in a data table.

Data table value changes are cheap, inexpensive, and low risk. Changing code logic, like making towers consume either fuel blocks or the old-style fuel depending on what is available, is much higher risk and requires an order of magnitude more development time.


And with the POS code this Fragile, even cheap, low risk data table valies are high risk given the consequences. The change failed on the test they ran. Who knows what the result of the failure was, but I assume POSes Dying in Fires.
That's a huge insight into the POS code.

Switching from Accept X to Accept Y broke POSes.

Failed the Test. We're waiting until January because the alternative is POSes going BIGGEST BOOM, and industry in Eve dying as we know it until well after it's fixed.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

hermerdoo
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#371 - 2011-12-14 06:58:21 UTC
That's cool. In the last WH corp we always had at least 6 months supply in case of emergency.
Now this only gives more time to make and have a resonable stock of fuel blocks.
Thx for the delay.
Ciar Meara
PIE Inc.
Khimi Harar
#372 - 2011-12-14 08:27:20 UTC
CCP Prism X wrote:
Why are you tackling these inconsequential survival myths?
What about drinking my own urine? I should be drinking my own urine while the snake bites me, right?!


I'd also recommend not to do anything Bear Grylls tell you to do, except when he recommends 5 star hotels.

- [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/janus/ceosig.jpg[/img] [yellow]English only please. Zymurgist[/yellow]

Deriah Book
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#373 - 2011-12-14 10:41:15 UTC
Salpun wrote:


Its true its a mess hopefully by Tuesday with the patch windows will pin(works on Sisi), Bookmark fix will be tested and implemented not yet on Sisi but in work per a Dev, and POS fuel bays will be doubled in size to ease the pain.( entered into the development code but not yet on Sisi) has to be QAed first.
So things are looking up. MaybeLol

OK, how did/do you know this stuff?

I've never really given the forums any thought until crucible came out. I'd rather spend my time playing Eve. But in the last two weeks I've been reading quite a bit here.

From the patch notes for today and from the complete lack of information regarding said issues that I have been able to find on my own I would believe that CCP is perfectly happy with postage stamp windows spawning arbitrarily all over my desktop. I have found no mention of the bookmark feature either.

I ask because I really, really love Eve.

But this patch coming up in a few minutes may be my last...
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
Masters of Flying Objects
#374 - 2011-12-14 11:26:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Deriah Book wrote:
Salpun wrote:


Its true its a mess hopefully by Tuesday with the patch windows will pin(works on Sisi), Bookmark fix will be tested and implemented not yet on Sisi but in work per a Dev, and POS fuel bays will be doubled in size to ease the pain.( entered into the development code but not yet on Sisi) has to be QAed first.
So things are looking up. MaybeLol

OK, how did/do you know this stuff?

I've never really given the forums any thought until crucible came out. I'd rather spend my time playing Eve. But in the last two weeks I've been reading quite a bit here.

From the patch notes for today and from the complete lack of information regarding said issues that I have been able to find on my own I would believe that CCP is perfectly happy with postage stamp windows spawning arbitrarily all over my desktop. I have found no mention of the bookmark feature either.

I ask because I really, really love Eve.

But this patch coming up in a few minutes may be my last...


While pinning worked again for one build it must have broke more fixes then it fixed so it got pulled again.

For where i find this info I read all dev posts and stay logged in to Sisi way to much. Devs answer questions some timesLol.

What client are you using? With all problem reports if you do not include client everyone is trying to reproduce it blind.

Edit. Pinning got implemented at the last minute so its in game again.

Another client patch will be deployed tomorrow at down time.

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Ris Dnalor
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#375 - 2011-12-14 18:32:10 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.



Amen.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=118961

EvE = Everybody Vs. Everybody

  • Qolde
Minneret
Celestial Horizon Corp.
#376 - 2011-12-15 01:47:58 UTC
I'm sure this has been brought up but can someone explain to me why fuel blocks where created to make life easier but then you put a waist factor and prod efficiency affect on the bpos? I mean compressed ore is just squished rock and doesn't have this so why does consolidated fuel block?
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#377 - 2011-12-15 04:17:40 UTC
Minneret wrote:
I'm sure this has been brought up but can someone explain to me why fuel blocks where created to make life easier but then you put a waist factor and prod efficiency affect on the bpos? I mean compressed ore is just squished rock and doesn't have this so why does consolidated fuel block?


Why not? All BPOs have waste built into them. Some are 5%, some are 10% waste as a default. Making BPOs with 0% waste would be a bad precedent.
GSCyber
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#378 - 2011-12-15 05:23:07 UTC
well that's all fine and dandy and all that sugar free candy, but here's my issue with the whole scenario of your roll out expectations...

If you double the fuel bay, to make room for the pez, why take it back STRICTLY when the changeover happens...
My reasoning behind asking that is:

a) What happens to any remaining fuel components that are still in the bay when you shrivel it up to normal size

b) what if some random tard stuffs his full of pez the night before with only a day's worth of component fuels

c) Not sure about you, but the whole " premise " behind these fuel changes isn't to make us mine more ice product *sarcasm* but to make it " easier " for the large alliances with 1000's of posses, for the sole reason of the horde, you've changed pos fueling to be more expensive for the sake of ease of use and expediency, That being the case, why now all of a sudden do you expect these lot to count all their fuel in all their poses down to the minute so they don't lose anything on switch over day?..

I don't know how many teaspoons of salt are in the dead sea, but i gather you'd want us to count each grain by hand first as well...then charge us a 5£ tax on each.
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#379 - 2011-12-15 09:54:45 UTC
GSCyber wrote:
well that's all fine and dandy and all that sugar free candy, but here's my issue with the whole scenario of your roll out expectations...

If you double the fuel bay, to make room for the pez, why take it back STRICTLY when the changeover happens...
My reasoning behind asking that is:

a) What happens to any remaining fuel components that are still in the bay when you shrivel it up to normal size

b) what if some random tard stuffs his full of pez the night before with only a day's worth of component fuels

c) Not sure about you, but the whole " premise " behind these fuel changes isn't to make us mine more ice product *sarcasm* but to make it " easier " for the large alliances with 1000's of posses, for the sole reason of the horde, you've changed pos fueling to be more expensive for the sake of ease of use and expediency, That being the case, why now all of a sudden do you expect these lot to count all their fuel in all their poses down to the minute so they don't lose anything on switch over day?..

I don't know how many teaspoons of salt are in the dead sea, but i gather you'd want us to count each grain by hand first as well...then charge us a 5£ tax on each.


a) They stay in the bay, you can still take them out, you just can't put any more in until it stops being overloaded

b) See a)

c) see a)
Jarnis McPieksu
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#380 - 2011-12-15 11:13:49 UTC
Minneret wrote:
I'm sure this has been brought up but can someone explain to me why fuel blocks where created to make life easier but then you put a waist factor and prod efficiency affect on the bpos? I mean compressed ore is just squished rock and doesn't have this so why does consolidated fuel block?


You do know that...

- You can buy pre-researched BPOs on contracts fairly cheap. I think ME40 ("zero waste") prints are only about 20-30 mil ISK
- You can research BPOs yourself - ME0 to ME40 is like bit over 3 days in a POS. If you need fuel blocks, you have a POS right? Anchor a lab for a while, research, take it out if not needed.