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Fuel blocks! (and CCP Soundwaves wildlife safety advice)

First post First post
Author
CCP Greyscale
C C P
C C P Alliance
#301 - 2011-12-11 17:17:11 UTC
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
OFFICIAL NOTICE: DUE TO COMPLETELY SCREWING UP ....... CHRISTMAS LEAVE HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR "various key people" SO THIS CAN BE PUT RIGHT.


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.

Lucia Ferragano wrote:
Side note, I once read an argument about game-makers not reading forums as a brain-health safety measure. It must be a bit nerve wracking to put your heart to your work and get flamed for failures, perceived failures or just regular whiner-pleasure :D



It gets a lot easier once you learn to stop taking any of it remotely personally Smile
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#302 - 2011-12-11 17:26:36 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:

It gets a lot easier once you learn to stop taking any of it remotely personally Smile



I really hope you haven't stopped taking the praise personally.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#303 - 2011-12-11 18:48:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Bloodpetal
CCP Greyscale wrote:


It gets a lot easier once you learn to stop taking any of it remotely personally Smile


Just thought I'd throw something inspirational in here...



Gibran, The Prophet wrote:

Work is love made visible.
And if you cannot work with love but only with distaste, it is better that you should leave your work and sit at the gate of the temple and take alms of those who work with joy.
For if you bake bread with indifference, you bake a bitter bread that feeds but half man's hunger.
And if you grudge the crushing of the grapes, your grudge distils a poison in the wine.
And if you sing though as angels, and love not the singing, you muffle man's ears to the voices of the day and the voices of the night.


Thanks for the great work and effort... :)

Where I am.

Zagdul
SUNDERING
Goonswarm Federation
#304 - 2011-12-11 20:13:29 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
OFFICIAL NOTICE: DUE TO COMPLETELY SCREWING UP ....... CHRISTMAS LEAVE HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR "various key people" SO THIS CAN BE PUT RIGHT.


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.

Lucia Ferragano wrote:
Side note, I once read an argument about game-makers not reading forums as a brain-health safety measure. It must be a bit nerve wracking to put your heart to your work and get flamed for failures, perceived failures or just regular whiner-pleasure :D



It gets a lot easier once you learn to stop taking any of it remotely personally Smile



Dude, I think he was joking.

Dual Pane idea: Click!

CCP Please Implement

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#305 - 2011-12-11 20:27:06 UTC
Zagdul wrote:

Dude, I think he was joking.


With some of the people on this forum, you gotta wonder, though.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Sidelong Glances
Perkone
Caldari State
#306 - 2011-12-11 20:39:27 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Halcyon Ingenium wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Please keep in mind that on the day of the switch, POSs will ONLY consume fuel blocks and all the old items will no longer keep the starbase going.


Good news. Is there a time we can use fuel blocks before this or is the switch over going to be that abrupt?


Going to be abrupt. Hopefully the long leadtime will make it less painful.


Aside from that now I have a month of fuel sitting idle in blocks that I had ready for the original date, yes. Was not planning the budget on having to buy another month of fuel NOW . :grumbledygrumpgrump: It would be nice if we could use both until that magical moment the unprepared have become prepared and are ready with the rest of us.

Learn from CL&P - It's ok to be late as long as you don't promise to be early ;)
Lucid Matrix
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#307 - 2011-12-11 20:58:31 UTC
CCP

In the future, why not fully test expansions and patches on a test server before they go live. I think this would result in the need for less forum rage. It would also anger paying customers much less, if you folks at CCP realized we don't want to pay to be ******* guinea pigs.

On another note, PI export/import cost needs a serious deduction, it's beyond insanity

P.S. Quality should speak first, not the douche making stupid deadlines. When someone imposes a dead line, kick them in the crotch hard and say, "it will go live when it's ready and working properly."
Faith Sunstrider
#308 - 2011-12-11 21:46:11 UTC
Too much QQ.
Kelvin Vanhorn
Black Slag Authenticated
#309 - 2011-12-11 22:16:24 UTC
Hello Greyscale!!!

Suggestion: Would it be remotely possible to have CCP tell us to keep our POS's full of the standard fuel up to the day or weekend before the switch over and when the change takes place CCP with convert all that fuel to the new Fuel Blocks.

This way all the effort players have done up to then with making the new fuel block and keeping the fuel bays full for another month won’t be in vain, think of it as a belated Christmas gift to use for what has been taken place so far for the miscommunication.

Hopefully this would make players happy about this change and let them focus on the task of keeping their tower up and running with the new fuel blocks.

Cheers

Kel
Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#310 - 2011-12-11 22:23:54 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.


A bit late commenting on this thread but.....

Considering the importance you place on not hosing CCP employee holidays, perhaps a way of showing respect to your players holiday schedules would be the following:

As a holiday gift and a mia culpa, turn off POS fuel consumption for 2-4 weeks to give people time to adapt to the new realitites. This gives people a chance to:

  • Produce more raw fuel
  • Move more raw fuel
  • Not get prison raped on market prices which will now be jacked up even more now that people know there will be an even bigger shortage.
  • Not have their holiday breaks / preparation time spent to date wasted.


I for one have been very happy with recent changes. It is unfortunate that issues like this tarnish recent progress. However considering CCP's track record with the customer base the last 2+ years something more than "We are REALLY sorry, see you in 4 weeks" would be appreciated.

Disabling the fuel consumption, one would think, should be a relatively low impact code change (speaking as someone who has never looked at the POS spaghetti code)

Thanks,
Acks
RONA Directorate
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#311 - 2011-12-11 23:17:30 UTC
Acks wrote:

As a holiday gift and a mia culpa, turn off POS fuel consumption for 2-4 weeks to give people time to adapt to the new realitites.


2-4 weeks of free reactions running on as many moons as I can get my grubby paws on? I bet I could make a few dozen billion isk.... I don't think I'd sleep at all for the month, and I'd run through a couple billion in cyno frigs, LOz, Cyno mods, and JF fuel, but I'd make more in a month than I reasonably expect to this year.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Aldarean
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2011-12-11 23:26:46 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
OFFICIAL NOTICE: DUE TO COMPLETELY SCREWING UP ....... CHRISTMAS LEAVE HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR "various key people" SO THIS CAN BE PUT RIGHT.


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.

Lucia Ferragano wrote:
Side note, I once read an argument about game-makers not reading forums as a brain-health safety measure. It must be a bit nerve wracking to put your heart to your work and get flamed for failures, perceived failures or just regular whiner-pleasure :D



It gets a lot easier once you learn to stop taking any of it remotely personally Smile



Anyone in here who would say anyone should not have Xmas off should sort themselves out.it is an argument brought by frustration, and believe this argument should be taken with a pinch os salt.

However CCP, staffing holidays should have been planed in advance. Which means the switchover should have never been planned to take place before Xmas.

Market volatility has already been mentioned. And yes during the POS happy time it was mentioned that switchover would probably take place within 2 weeks.

You guys have made a fantastic patch, and you deserve a holiday. But you have fallen into the same trap that this expansion was trying to recover. Which was basically lack of clear communication. Without any other communication industrial pilots had to assume the time span given.

There has been too much going on at once that's made fuel market to volatile, and this is just magnifying it. There is nothing we can do about the switchover, if it doesn't work it doesn't work. But find a simple way to not punish the pilots (majority) that planned and put in the effort to prepare for this switchover. Half the fuel cost for all POSs, surely this is just a simple procedure and editing quantity numbers in POS code, and shouldnt cause any major work. Could be wrong :-)
Icarus Helia
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
Dreadbomb.
#313 - 2011-12-12 00:33:42 UTC
are people still whining because they converted their entire stocks of fuel way too early?

reduction in pos fuel costs or removal of it would be a tremendously bad idea s mentioned earlier - rich will get even richer, poor might skate by with a couple extra hundred mil.

you hauling types who went and converted all the fuel you had based on a guesstimate instead of a more modest "meh, halfish?" approach - shame on you. Wait for a hard date next time, and get over it.

Why you no care?

Acks
RONA Corporation
Blue Sun Interstellar Technologies
#314 - 2011-12-12 00:46:00 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Acks wrote:

As a holiday gift and a mia culpa, turn off POS fuel consumption for 2-4 weeks to give people time to adapt to the new realitites.


2-4 weeks of free reactions running on as many moons as I can get my grubby paws on? I bet I could make a few dozen billion isk.... I don't think I'd sleep at all for the month, and I'd run through a couple billion in cyno frigs, LOz, Cyno mods, and JF fuel, but I'd make more in a month than I reasonably expect to this year.


And?

A fix to avoid exploitation if it is really needed could be to make it for current towers only. Complicates the matter but there ya go. Point of my post being that CCP's issues with their plans are not being allowed to impact their finances or holiday time off. The same consideration should be given to the players.

I only have to deal with one POS ATM but I have had to manage dozens in the past. The amount of work, fuel and isk needed to compensate for this shift is not minor.

Add in the WH factor and this gets 10x worse. Those who argue that people in a WH only have to deal with 1 POS and should not complain clearly have not really lived in a WH unless it was only with 2 or 3 other people. Most serious WH corps have multiple towers. It is necessary evil of WH living with a corp of any size.

If this were occuring during non "holiday" time it would still be a major annoyance but it would at least be much more manageable from a time / manpower perspective.

I do not feel like CCP should cancel anyones holiday break and make them stay and work. But likewise I don't think that players with a large POS investment who planned ahead and manufactured and staged new fuels should now have this dumped on them. They are faced with the choice of spending a LOT of time and isk quickly to offset this or it is "Pinata" time.

My idea may not be the right one but "Sorry see you in 4 weeks" is also far from a balanced approach to spreading the pain this "hiccup" is causing.
hellz bringer
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#315 - 2011-12-12 03:51:08 UTC
Zagdul wrote:
This is horrible.

People who run POS's have been preparing for this. You've screwed over the people who already hate their jobs.


hellz bringer
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#316 - 2011-12-12 03:54:32 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
OFFICIAL NOTICE: DUE TO COMPLETELY SCREWING UP ....... CHRISTMAS LEAVE HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR "various key people" SO THIS CAN BE PUT RIGHT.


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.



You get payed for what you do, we do not. There is a big difference here and you should not even be making that comparison.
Deriah Book
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#317 - 2011-12-12 04:43:33 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

On a slightly related note, here is a quick piece of wildlife advice...blah...blah...blah


We are a small corp that makes our own fuel in the WH. So, same complaints as everyone else. Not only are you making fueling the pos more complicated and then trying to sell it like it's sex, but you throw this 6 week wrench in? Douche bag much?

But that's not my issue.

You are trying to be cute with your insipid snake bite story when my windows still don't pin, open where ever they like, and my bookmarks autofolder?

Get real man.

Douche...
Salpun
Global Telstar Federation Offices
SLYCE Pirates
#318 - 2011-12-12 04:56:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Salpun
Deriah Book wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

On a slightly related note, here is a quick piece of wildlife advice...blah...blah...blah


We are a small corp that makes our own fuel in the WH. So, same complaints as everyone else. Not only are you making fueling the pos more complicated and then trying to sell it like it's sex, but you throw this 6 week wrench in? Douche bag much?

But that's not my issue.

You are trying to be cute with your insipid snake bite story when my windows still don't pin, open where ever they like, and my bookmarks autofolder?

Get real man.

Douche...


Its true its a mess hopefully by Tuesday with the patch windows will pin(works on Sisi), Bookmark fix will be tested and implemented not yet on Sisi but in work per a Dev, and POS fuel bays will be doubled in size to ease the pain.( entered into the development code but not yet on Sisi) has to be QAed first.
So things are looking up. MaybeLol

If i dont know something about EVE. I check https://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ISK_The_Guide

See you around the universe.

Icarus Helia
Outback Steakhouse of Pancakes
Dreadbomb.
#319 - 2011-12-12 06:11:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Icarus Helia
hellz bringer wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
MuppetsSlayed wrote:
OFFICIAL NOTICE: DUE TO COMPLETELY SCREWING UP ....... CHRISTMAS LEAVE HAS BEEN DELAYED FOR "various key people" SO THIS CAN BE PUT RIGHT.


Putting aside the basic human-decency arguments that I'm assuming you're not interested in (I'm flying home for Christmas, it'll be the first time I've seen my sister in two years, this isn't that big of an emergency), there's an entirely pragmatic reason why this sort of approach is a bad idea. Anyone who's played EVE for any serious amount of time will be familiar with burnout, and how destructive it can be, and devs can burn out too. Cancelling holidays and making people work lots of overtime and so on is hugely counterproductive in the long run.



You get payed for what you do, we do not. There is a big difference here and you should not even be making that comparison.


go to your job, and live there for a month. don't go home. then tell him burnout doesn't exist.

a small number of people are being appreciative or at least trying to come up with a new plan, but so many more are whining and complaining or generally being unappreciative. This though - this is grade-A douchebaggery.

he's right, this isn't really a crisis, and nobody should be cancelling their holiday plans because you had to haul some fuel because you made a ridiculous bet and lost.

Why you no care?

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#320 - 2011-12-12 06:20:09 UTC
Acks wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Acks wrote:

As a holiday gift and a mia culpa, turn off POS fuel consumption for 2-4 weeks to give people time to adapt to the new realitites.


2-4 weeks of free reactions running on as many moons as I can get my grubby paws on? I bet I could make a few dozen billion isk.... I don't think I'd sleep at all for the month, and I'd run through a couple billion in cyno frigs, LOz, Cyno mods, and JF fuel, but I'd make more in a month than I reasonably expect to this year.


And?

A fix to avoid exploitation if it is really needed could be to make it for current towers only. Complicates the matter but there ya go. Point of my post being that CCP's issues with their plans are not being allowed to impact their finances or holiday time off. The same consideration should be given to the players.

I only have to deal with one POS ATM but I have had to manage dozens in the past. The amount of work, fuel and isk needed to compensate for this shift is not minor.

Add in the WH factor and this gets 10x worse. Those who argue that people in a WH only have to deal with 1 POS and should not complain clearly have not really lived in a WH unless it was only with 2 or 3 other people. Most serious WH corps have multiple towers. It is necessary evil of WH living with a corp of any size.

If this were occuring during non "holiday" time it would still be a major annoyance but it would at least be much more manageable from a time / manpower perspective.

I do not feel like CCP should cancel anyones holiday break and make them stay and work. But likewise I don't think that players with a large POS investment who planned ahead and manufactured and staged new fuels should now have this dumped on them. They are faced with the choice of spending a LOT of time and isk quickly to offset this or it is "Pinata" time.

My idea may not be the right one but "Sorry see you in 4 weeks" is also far from a balanced approach to spreading the pain this "hiccup" is causing.



The smart choice given the speed that you can make fuel would have been to get 1 week of blocks and keep the rest liquid. If you're running hundreds of POSes, I can see where that would be barely tenable, but running that many POSes is going to be nightmarish no matter how you do it, so a couple extra kicks in the nuts shouldn't hurt too much.

I currently help manage about a dozen POSes. We have a week of blocks sitting in stations, ready to be ignored until it's time to put them in a few days before the switch.

Coding, Testing etc on making the POSes not consume fuel (which currently runs on the same mechanism that runs every other timed activity [i.e. reactions]) would likely either be harder than switching early, or just pause all reactions and mining for the duration. Neither are good results. And making it only apply to currently up POSes just combines the worst of both worlds.

I say, Thank you for Crucible, have a nice winter vacation, and come back rested in January. o/


P.S. Except you, Mac Devs. I really would love a stable client for christmas... Roll


P.P.S. Ok, Mac Devs, I'll work around it. Have a great holiday as well.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon