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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Dr Ngo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2014-07-29 18:00:44 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Dr Ngo wrote:
... plus it would be easier to find a place for something like the Ishtar without neutering or breaking the domi if you could play with a medium and heavy variant individually.


They can already do this. Different hulls, different bonuses. Why do both of them have to have exactly the same +10% drone damage/hitpoints hull bonus? They don't. They shouldn't. Problem solved.


My point is that they've been doing it for years. The problem is every time they tweak something it has potential to break a ton of ships that they've then been having to go back and rebalance individually.

The goal is to make them easier to tweak and balance in the long term and to reduce the fear that balancing one ship class will break another.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#262 - 2014-07-29 18:02:07 UTC
a lot of those garde's with x amount of scripts still list the same range ... i suspect copy paste went wrong job

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
John Ending
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2014-07-29 18:03:19 UTC
Querns wrote:
Mods, please rename this thread to ENORMOUS DOWNSIDES: The Ishtar Story


Do these balance guys even play this game?
Dr Jihad Alhariri
Dr Jihad's Brigade of Interstellar Mujahideen
#264 - 2014-07-29 18:04:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:


Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.



An ineffectual nerf. The word "conservative" is acting as a euphemism for "timid" in this case, arguably.

As others have already explained, the core of the overall problem is sentry drones. But I think CCP has already given their answer regarding those a few months ago.

We may not see a proper nerf to sentry drones in the foreseeable future. We might be stuck with little, band-aid nerfs like this for now.
Deacon Abox
Black Eagle5
#265 - 2014-07-29 18:04:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Deacon Abox
Thanks for taking a soft approach. If you used the sledge hammer something else would just fill the void.

But, having an Eagle move faster than an Ishtar just twists my underwear. Couldn't you at least lighten up the Ishtar speed nerf to 190 as well? What?

That and throw a little more drone bay (25 even) to the VNI.Smile

Anyway, looking forward to more new balancing threads/posts by you guys. Welcome back from your summer vacations, to the flame zone. P

edited for drone bay not bandwidth

CCP, there are off buttons for ship explosions, missile effects, turret effects, etc. "Immersion" does not seem to be harmed by those. So, [u]please[/u] give us a persisting off button for the jump gate and autoscan visuals.

Valterra Craven
#266 - 2014-07-29 18:04:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Valterra Craven
CCP Rise wrote:


Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.



Personally I think you are going about this the completely wrong way.


The old way, you have 2 big patches with 2 small to medium patches for clean up, etc.
With this you had several options

Do big "HULK SMASH" changes to OP/UP ships in the big patches, and let the small patches be for fixing/cleanup. (We did see some of that)
Do medium to small changes over the course of the year 4 times.

The new way you have roughly 6 to 8 medium sized patches a year.

So you can do big "HULK SMASH" changes to a few OP/UP ships and then do corrections in the next cycle much more quickly
or you can do minor changes that don't effectively change the meta or the ships 6-8 times a year, which is what you've chosen.

The thing that I don't understand is that these fast patch cycles should allow you to take greater risks than before since you don't have to wait as long to get things fixed. So you take the nerf bat and smash the Ishtar hard now, and then make fix changes 6 weeks after assuming they need them. The old way when you made those big changes you had to wait two to three times as long to get fixes in. So given that there is a massive problem here, and you have the tools to iterate quickly, it would seem that the answer should be to try and get the Ishtar squared away quickly, no matter the size of changes and then issue fixes later.

The way you propose now would mean that the ishtar stays OP and other ships stay UP for roughly the same amount of time as your old way of doing things. In other words, if you aren't going to take advantage of being able to do quick changes, then why bother with them at all?
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#267 - 2014-07-29 18:05:14 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
a lot of those garde's with x amount of scripts still list the same range ... i suspect copy paste went wrong job

tracking script applies a -100% to omni range bonus.
mynnna
State War Academy
Caldari State
#268 - 2014-07-29 18:05:40 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:

Baltec... Its baltec because no damage mods. How about comparing something in the whole spectrum of tank and dps.


As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.

Harvey James wrote:
a lot of those garde's with x amount of scripts still list the same range ... i suspect copy paste went wrong job

No, my illiterate friend, they're x amount of tracking scripted omnis, which do not improve range, just like they do not improve tracking if range scripted.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal
5yndr0m3
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#269 - 2014-07-29 18:08:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

After digging into this we were both happy and a bit surprised to find that there weren't a lot of clear changes needed. Battleships especially seem to be in a pretty solid place. There are ships within the class getting less use than others, but that is almost completely due to either the meta favoring certain things (this is why the Abaddon isn't seeing a lot of action for example) or due to the ship falling into a niche that isn't extremely popular even though the ship performs exceptionally in that niche (the Hyperion is a great example of this). So the result is that for now we are going to leave BS alone and keep checking back for opportunities to make improvements.

HACs on the other hand are a slightly different story. In general the class gained a lot of power in the last pass and it's seeing plenty of use across the board, but there are some pretty clear imbalances between certain ships in the class. If you've undocked lately you probably know the Ishtar especially is a little out of control. Here's the small set of changes we're going to make:

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

Eagle:
Max Velocity from 180 -> 190

Muninn:
Max velocity from 210 -> 230

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.

Looking forward to your feedback as always

PS - how would you feel about an 8/4/7 Tempest?

Note for clarity: Hyperion release date is August 26


Where is the Recon/T3 balance?

Also dont touch the Tempest, its in a good place. making it strictly an armor tank ship would be bad.

The Ishtar nerf dosent go far enough. Seriously, when you have them listed for more points in the AT than any other hac, you really need to pound it with a hammer.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#270 - 2014-07-29 18:10:29 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Arya Regnar wrote:

Baltec... Its baltec because no damage mods. How about comparing something in the whole spectrum of tank and dps.


As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.

Harvey James wrote:
a lot of those garde's with x amount of scripts still list the same range ... i suspect copy paste went wrong job

No, my illiterate friend, they're x amount of tracking scripted omnis, which do not improve range, just like they do not improve tracking if range scripted.


Then you should have put tracking attribute down .. as you talk about tracking being 50% of the effective dps ...

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using
Corey Lean
No Vacancies
No Vacancies.
#271 - 2014-07-29 18:11:04 UTC
Beat it with the nerf bat until it stops moving.
Obsidian Hawk
RONA Midgard Academy
#272 - 2014-07-29 18:11:18 UTC
Well people sure do complain about sentry drones a lot. I have an idea? Instead of complaining why not use your brains for something useful like counter tactics against sentry drones.

Now as for the 8/4/7 Tempest.... Personally i do fly a armor tanking pest fit with arts of course with the changes, can we see a velocity change since we are losing a mid? Also how would the layouts change with a fleet tempest? Do you plan to change the Vargur as well to keep all of them in line with each other?

Why Can't I have a picture signature.

Also please support graphical immersion, bring back the art that brought people to EvE online originaly.
Cherry Yeyo
Doomheim
#273 - 2014-07-29 18:19:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cherry Yeyo
Obsidian Hawk wrote:
counter tactics against sentry drones

Which consists of staying 200km away...

All of these things need to be balanced around: what is a large fleet gonna do with these things. There is nothing that can stay on grid, no counter to a sentry blob. Everything ingame except supers gets shredded to teeny tiny ribbons.

The ishtar with all its utility slots and speed and sig tank exacerbates the sentry problem.

.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#274 - 2014-07-29 18:20:21 UTC
eh. drones should be more consistently ewar resistant/immune than they are now. that and range flexibility is what they do... at the expense of, I don't know, something. being destroyable and being delayed damage, I guess.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#275 - 2014-07-29 18:24:19 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
eh. drones should be more consistently ewar resistant/immune than they are now. that and range flexibility is what they do... at the expense of, I don't know, something. being destroyable and being delayed damage, I guess.


The sentry drone delay for damage is long as hell. I can probably check my overview to chose a warp out destination during that delay. If I am really fast I might even pull off clicking "warp to".
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#276 - 2014-07-29 18:25:33 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Skia Aumer wrote:
Folks, that's just stupid.
Rise has acknowledged that sentry Ishtars are OP. And they are OP on purpose. But to compensate, they have enormous downsides, i.e. sentries are destructable.
The problem is, that they can not be destructed in any practical way I can think of.


Bomb runs? Forcing Ishtars to warp off and then shoot or scoop them? Frigates? Dedicated ships? Mobile drones from your ships?

1. Bomb runs could be a counter for a slow ship like Domi, but Ishtars are highly mobile and they can (and often do) deploy drones in a large cloud, which is by no means easy to bomb. Furthermore, they have 3 flights (+3 more in cargo) so the bombing is just a waste of bombs. Also never forget the anti-bombing support that you should always bring for the big battles. And finally, in medium to small fleets (when every ship matters) bomber wing is a luxury you cannot afford.
2. A reasonable Ishtar will rewarp and reconnect sooner than you start shooting the drones, leave alone scooping them. And how one can force them to rewarp - I cant even guess.
3. Frigates? Lolwhat?
4. Dedicated ships? What could it be? Smartbombing battleships maybe? They are irrelevant for the same reason as bombers.
5. My drones will eat 1 sentry per minute at best. Now again, Ishtar has 15 to 30 drones, and in that time spawn the battle should be over.

Finally, if Ishtar fleet runs out of drones - you can always jump a carrier under the POS field and replenish them all.
checkingprices
Imperial Merchant Fleet
#277 - 2014-07-29 18:26:54 UTC
Waiting ages for the HAC pass so the blatantly terrible Sacrilege can get some much needed love, and it isn't even mentioned. Faith in CCP lost.
Budan Kado
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#278 - 2014-07-29 18:27:25 UTC
CFC if you cant beat them, nerf them.

Devs I hope you skip over the CFC posting brigade of nerfing. Its sorta personal for them. They cant figure out how to beat them, so they will try to get them nerfed. This isnt a new case, it has happened before with ships.

Its a shame really, they have the biggest collection of players in Nullsec and when they cant out blob something, they run and cry about it to get it nerfed.
Gorski Car
#279 - 2014-07-29 18:28:16 UTC
Role Play wrote:
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Requiescat wrote:
solo battleship


please, rise and fozzie are delusional enough already



CCP Rise used to solo battheships all the time.


https://www.youtube.com/user/jampyzero/videos

Also there used to be videos on club-bear.com but they are gone now. You can find the mirrors online somewhere.


Check the date on that **** bro. Have fun doing solo battleships now

Collect this post
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#280 - 2014-07-29 18:30:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

The biggest benefit that drone ships have is that they can carry multiple sizes of weapons without needing to refit the ship. This benefit is still there whether or not they get bonuses to the smaller size drones.

On the Ishtar, I would like to see it get -1 Mid and +1 low to encourage armor tanking.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.