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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

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Author
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#361 - 2014-07-29 21:28:56 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This change does not address the underlying problem with the Ishtar. Namely, sentry drones are broken.

They are a battleship size weapons platform.

Make it so only battleships can use them. Not cruisers, not carriers, JUST battleships. Make them require a role bonus.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Basically, sentries do have hard counters but few choose to use them because it interferes with how they want to fight otherwise. Unless there is a reason that particular bubble of space is more valuable than your own, make them come to you. Sentry boats are not as mobile as others.


Yeah, you should counter kite the guys with a 90km range weapon system and a 2.5km/s or higher speed. Roll

There is a reason the "counters" you are talking about do not see widespread use.

It's because they're bad. The Arazu is lucky if it can stand up under a few moments firepower from an Ishtar. The Lachesis is a joke, in fact all of the Recon ships need about a ten thousand native hitpoint buff. But look, they have not been rebalanced yet.

Sentry drones have no real counters besides bombing, which is problematic against Ishtars for reasons that should be obvious. Nevermind carriers, who are immune to even that since their drone bays are so ridiculous.



The drones are not that strong, nor difficult to hit. Dedicate a ship or two to popping sentries at range, and there is little the Ishtar can do about it except leave.

You don't need bombs to kill drones, that's just silly.


He can wreck the rest of your fleet but you totally have a "win" because your long range pair killed a bunch of drones...
Bocephus Morgen
The Suicide Kings
Dreadbomb.
#362 - 2014-07-29 21:29:19 UTC
I like the idea behind the incremental changes. It's a real shame you guys didn't do that with the jump fuel changes!
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#363 - 2014-07-29 21:30:51 UTC
Bocephus Morgen wrote:
I like the idea behind the incremental changes. It's a real shame you guys didn't do that with the jump fuel changes!


The fuel change could still be incremental. No one said they would not bump it more. :D
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#364 - 2014-07-29 21:39:40 UTC
Honestly I'd love to see small and medium sentries introduced, and bandwidths adjusted to appropriate levels, so that each ship class can step up with fewer drones (trade off being more alpha with less application), or down (trade off being damage for more application).

I could even see a bandwidth premium on sentries (and possibly upgraded standard drones), so that the middle ship weights (destroyers, battlecruisers) and drone dedicated ships with extra bandwidth could use full sets of them. Small Sentry could use 6mb, Medium could use 12mn Drop heavy drone requirements to 20mb, Leave large sentry at 25. Destroyers and drone bonused frigates could get an extra 5 mb, Battlecruisers and drone bonused cruisers could get an extra 10. Non bonused Battleships could be capped at 100mb, and only drone bonused battleships could field large sentries.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#365 - 2014-07-29 21:42:24 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This change does not address the underlying problem with the Ishtar. Namely, sentry drones are broken.

They are a battleship size weapons platform.

Make it so only battleships can use them. Not cruisers, not carriers, JUST battleships. Make them require a role bonus.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Basically, sentries do have hard counters but few choose to use them because it interferes with how they want to fight otherwise. Unless there is a reason that particular bubble of space is more valuable than your own, make them come to you. Sentry boats are not as mobile as others.


Yeah, you should counter kite the guys with a 90km range weapon system and a 2.5km/s or higher speed. Roll

There is a reason the "counters" you are talking about do not see widespread use.

It's because they're bad. The Arazu is lucky if it can stand up under a few moments firepower from an Ishtar. The Lachesis is a joke, in fact all of the Recon ships need about a ten thousand native hitpoint buff. But look, they have not been rebalanced yet.

Sentry drones have no real counters besides bombing, which is problematic against Ishtars for reasons that should be obvious. Nevermind carriers, who are immune to even that since their drone bays are so ridiculous.



The drones are not that strong, nor difficult to hit. Dedicate a ship or two to popping sentries at range, and there is little the Ishtar can do about it except leave.

You don't need bombs to kill drones, that's just silly.


He can wreck the rest of your fleet but you totally have a "win" because your long range pair killed a bunch of drones...


Or you could use tactics and keep his DPS down by popping his drones while your fleetmates dealt with him and his support. Or I suppose just charging into a meatgrinder specifically designed to repel the sort of assault you are attempting warrents a change to the game, and not the player.
Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#366 - 2014-07-29 21:44:13 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:


I could even see a bandwidth premium on sentries (and possibly upgraded standard drones), so that the middle ship weights (destroyers, battlecruisers) and drone dedicated ships with extra bandwidth could use full sets of them. Small Sentry could use 6mb, Medium could use 12mn Drop heavy drone requirements to 20mb, Leave large sentry at 25. Destroyers and drone bonused frigates could get an extra 5 mb, Battlecruisers and drone bonused cruisers could get an extra 10. Non bonused Battleships could be capped at 100mb, and only drone bonused battleships could field large sentries.


Ishkur fleets would be a thing. I like this.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#367 - 2014-07-29 21:44:47 UTC
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Mike Voidstar wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
This change does not address the underlying problem with the Ishtar. Namely, sentry drones are broken.

They are a battleship size weapons platform.

Make it so only battleships can use them. Not cruisers, not carriers, JUST battleships. Make them require a role bonus.

Mike Voidstar wrote:

Basically, sentries do have hard counters but few choose to use them because it interferes with how they want to fight otherwise. Unless there is a reason that particular bubble of space is more valuable than your own, make them come to you. Sentry boats are not as mobile as others.


Yeah, you should counter kite the guys with a 90km range weapon system and a 2.5km/s or higher speed. Roll

There is a reason the "counters" you are talking about do not see widespread use.

It's because they're bad. The Arazu is lucky if it can stand up under a few moments firepower from an Ishtar. The Lachesis is a joke, in fact all of the Recon ships need about a ten thousand native hitpoint buff. But look, they have not been rebalanced yet.

Sentry drones have no real counters besides bombing, which is problematic against Ishtars for reasons that should be obvious. Nevermind carriers, who are immune to even that since their drone bays are so ridiculous.



The drones are not that strong, nor difficult to hit. Dedicate a ship or two to popping sentries at range, and there is little the Ishtar can do about it except leave.

You don't need bombs to kill drones, that's just silly.


He can wreck the rest of your fleet but you totally have a "win" because your long range pair killed a bunch of drones...


Or you could use tactics and keep his DPS down by popping his drones while your fleetmates dealt with him and his support. Or I suppose just charging into a meatgrinder specifically designed to repel the sort of assault you are attempting warrents a change to the game, and not the player.


Your long range people can only kill sentry so fast unless you dedicate more ships to it. The rest of the fleet will need to be much closer range which mean they get picked off by the sentries. If everybody is long range blapping sentries from afar, the Ishtar will just leave the field...
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#368 - 2014-07-29 21:52:26 UTC
Crazy thought for sentry drones:

Sentry drones are battleship sized weapons, in a very small hull. So they're taking liberties with shielding and the like, and are unstable.

When destroyed, they explode, damaging anything in a 6km radius, doing at least enough damage to kill any sentry drone (max boosted sentry drone, at that matter)

Oh, and push sentry drone deployment out to a 3km radius of the ship deploying them.




And just to take care of a potential issue, no sentry drone deployment within, say, 20km of a station or star gate.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#369 - 2014-07-29 21:53:42 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

The biggest benefit that drone ships have is that they can carry multiple sizes of weapons without needing to refit the ship. This benefit is still there whether or not they get bonuses to the smaller size drones.

On the Ishtar, I would like to see it get -1 Mid and +1 low to encourage armor tanking.

Yeah because screw shield ALL the way.


















































No

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#370 - 2014-07-29 21:53:59 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:

Your long range people can only kill sentry so fast unless you dedicate more ships to it. The rest of the fleet will need to be much closer range which mean they get picked off by the sentries. If everybody is long range blapping sentries from afar, the Ishtar will just leave the field...


So... you just want a way to absolutely shut him down so he is defenseless before you? "Balance" may not mean what you think it means.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#371 - 2014-07-29 21:55:07 UTC
Arya Regnar wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

The biggest benefit that drone ships have is that they can carry multiple sizes of weapons without needing to refit the ship. This benefit is still there whether or not they get bonuses to the smaller size drones.

On the Ishtar, I would like to see it get -1 Mid and +1 low to encourage armor tanking.

Yeah because screw shield ALL the way.


gallente are supposed to armour tank. if you want to shield tank, you picked the wrong race.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#372 - 2014-07-29 21:57:17 UTC
Should be changing the Ishtar hull bonus to be to light, medium and heavy drones only.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#373 - 2014-07-29 22:02:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Should be changing the Ishtar hull bonus to be to light, medium and heavy drones only.


and then I suppose make the ship stronger in some other area, as it has a bonus that only applies to sentries?

Point being that sentries are not some emergent factor or oversight on the part of the devs... this is how the ship is designed to be used, and it effectively loses a bonus to do it since Heavies and Sentries are mutually exclusive.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#374 - 2014-07-29 22:07:14 UTC
mynnna wrote:

As Querns noted, catching you before you edited, it runs a single damage mod. The Zealot I compared to has two, the Tengu three. The point is to compare standard fleet fits to the range of Ishtar DPS numbers and illustrate that the Ishtar's range is "about 15% lower" to "nearly 50% higher" than other fleet cruisers, with some common fleet BS included just because.

>Comparing single damage mod to 3 damage mods
>Comparing damage as if tracking plays no role
>Comparing inability to change location 3 times and still having dps to not having that
>Comparing 55k ehp with 150k +ehp

Baltec is completely different to ishtars and while ishtars are very strong in numbers ranging from 10-25 they dont scale well beyond that.

Meanwhile slowcats truly have no counter and nobody complains because guess who fields them the most.

You guessed right.

Your coalition.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

Chjna
the Goose Flock
#375 - 2014-07-29 22:10:40 UTC
The Ishtar needs a nerf and down to 5% tracking / level looks appropriate.

About the 8/4/7 Tempest?
No - keep some of the minmatar ships flexible. We have two and a half armor race as it is.

Remove T2 BPOs

Falin Whalen
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#376 - 2014-07-29 22:16:08 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Ishtar - really want to emphasize how we would rather take smaller steps more often than big ones more rarely. After some more feedback here we will definitely revisit and make sure we are happy with this change for this release.

Keep it comin

The problem with Ishtars is Sentry drones. The issue with sentries is that their base stats have tracking halfway between medium short & long range guns. Sentries are a thing that can put out battleship DPS, range, and track better than fugging medium long range guns. That is why people are using Ishtars so much, not the ship itself but a weapon system that is getting to be more OP the more you scale it up.

You need to attack the root of the problem and do a heavy balance pass on sentries entirely. You're probably going to progressively nerf the Ishtar until you finally figure out that Sentries are the real problem, nerf those into the ground, and then do nothing at all to compensate the Isthar afterwards and leave it utterly useless.

"it's only because of their stupidity that they're able to be so sure of themselves." The Trial - Franz Kafka 

MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#377 - 2014-07-29 22:16:24 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
It would be cool if there was a jump drive module that only battleships can use. I would call it a constilation jump drive.

How it works is you can only jump inside of the constilation you are in.

The mod requires fuel and cap to use and a cyno. But if you want to go between regions or a different constilation you have to use a gate.

Edit: or you can make it a one time use deployable that only battleships can activate

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.

Goochan derp
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#378 - 2014-07-29 22:23:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Goochan derp
using the argument that sentries can be killed as a downside is kind of lame when your talking about a ship that can hold 3 sets of them. if your going to put forth the effort to kill that many drones you have probably already lost the fight. each garde2 has over 6000 raw hp with max skills so that's 30,000 hp per set. assuming an ehp value of 45,000 for the ishtar that adds up to 135,000 hp you have to kill, assuming you kill every drone and the ship... all while doing a meager 1800 m/s. sure your drones die eventually but they are essentially tripling your ehp to do so.

the fact that sentries cant move can also be seen as an advantage, if your kiting away from your enemy your essentially laying a big fat land mine in your wake whenever you deploy them. what downside is there to this? should my fleet stop and kill the drones before continuing?

the problem with the ishtar is that its simply the total package. it has everything you can possibly want in a ship.

the way to bring it in line with other ships is to start taking away its features one at a time, the problem is, where to start?

i think even if the optimal+tracking bonus was removed completely it would still be op, sentries have great range even before that bonus, and not every ship that uses large weapon systems needs a tracking bonus to be effective either.

ive spent way too much time writing and thinking about this post and i don't know what else to put here, theres 1000 ways to balance this, put on a blindfold and throw a dart at a wall with a bunch of specs on it and nerf that one, odds are the ship will still be op with only one removed.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#379 - 2014-07-29 22:26:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Bullet Therapist
MeBiatch wrote:
It would be cool if there was a jump drive module that only battleships can use. I would call it a constilation jump drive.

How it works is you can only jump inside of the constilation you are in.

The mod requires fuel and cap to use and a cyno. But if you want to go between regions or a different constilation you have to use a gate.

Edit: or you can make it a one time use deployable that only battleships can activate


Eh I'd rather see battleships keep their current mobility and gain the raw stats they deserve instead. I wouldn't mind seeing new modules in general though, especially highslot modules. Maybe an ancillary style smartbomb, or an active defense module- something that might actually be a choice over DLAs, nosferatus and neuts or maybe a lowslot damage control type mod that forfeits links, boosts, fleet bonuses, and RR for a little more combat power for people that want to run solo. Might be a way of bringing off grid boosting in line a little too.
Rek Seven
The Persuaders
#380 - 2014-07-29 22:27:38 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Crazy thought for sentry drones:

Sentry drones are battleship sized weapons, in a very small hull. So they're taking liberties with shielding and the like, and are unstable.

When destroyed, they explode, damaging anything in a 6km radius, doing at least enough damage to kill any sentry drone (max boosted sentry drone, at that matter)

Oh, and push sentry drone deployment out to a 3km radius of the ship deploying them.

And just to take care of a potential issue, no sentry drone deployment within, say, 20km of a station or star gate.


Yeah you're right, those did seem like crazy thoughts...

On your first point, why do you consider sentries a battleship sized damage weapon? ...On paper they seem more inline with medium long range weapons that trade tracking for range.