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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
sten mattson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#221 - 2014-07-29 17:10:12 UTC
weird idea:

maybe make sentries follow the mothership and shoot its target while moving? i.e they always follow the ishtar while shooting its primary

that way the ishtar will always be close to its drones and he will have to care about tracking again

IMMA FIRING MA LAZAR!!!

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#222 - 2014-07-29 17:11:19 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside.


Which makes you completely vulnerable to frigate wings if you are pushed out of the sentry range.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#223 - 2014-07-29 17:12:17 UTC
Why isn't anyone discussing Eagle changes, is it because no one cares about Eagles.
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#224 - 2014-07-29 17:12:39 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.

Consider the Ishtar in the context of battleship-class sentry drone boats like the Dominix and Rattlesnake: they all have identical sentry drone damage bonuses (7.5 effective drones). The only other place you see smaller hulls fielding that kind of battleship-level DPS is attack battlecruisers, but those have thinner tanks than battleships without much of a sig radius advantage. The Ishtar gets a significant sig radius advantage over a battleship and still has the slots, resists and fitting to mount a solid tank. I can't think of any other ship in the game that has that combination of features, and this nominal damage application nerf isn't going to change that. It might make the Dominix look better compared to the Ishtar (bigger and slower, but slightly better sentry range), but the Ishtar will still put the other HACs to shame in many contexts.

Why not just reduce the Ishtar's drone damage/hitpoints bonus from 10% to 7.5%? That gives it a ~9% DPS nerf, which puts its theoretical long-range damage output right in line with other high-DPS HACs like the Deimos. You'd then have to decide what to do about the Vexor Navy Issue, but given that hull's much weaker tank, you might be fine leaving it as-is and letting it fall into the glass cannon niche like the attack battlecruisers.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#225 - 2014-07-29 17:14:01 UTC
sten mattson wrote:
weird idea:

maybe make sentries follow the mothership and shoot its target while moving? i.e they always follow the ishtar while shooting its primary

that way the ishtar will always be close to its drones and he will have to care about tracking again


Nah, rather the Ishtar have to remain in range to stay connected. Say 20km max or it loses connection with the sentries. Make their scoop/return range 10km.
Aareya
Dynamite.
Tactical Narcotics Team
#226 - 2014-07-29 17:14:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


What happened to the Gila then? (choices in drone was reduced)
And, more importantly: When can we expect carriers to be able to field fighter bombers?

I think you have something here.

Twitter:   @AareyaEVE

Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#227 - 2014-07-29 17:14:48 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside.


Which makes you completely vulnerable to frigate wings if you are pushed out of the sentry range.

if only sentry range wasn't enormous
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#228 - 2014-07-29 17:15:07 UTC
Taleden wrote:
Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.


I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#229 - 2014-07-29 17:17:50 UTC
we could just remove sentry drones altogether. they're silly and hard to balance.
Vlad Vladimir Vladinovsky
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#230 - 2014-07-29 17:18:22 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
we could just remove super capitals altogether. they're silly and hard to balance.

ftfy
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#231 - 2014-07-29 17:19:31 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


But with the possibility for 3 full sets of sentries it outweights this downside.


Perhaps the solution is to increase the size (but not bandwidth) of sentry drones. Sentries taking up 50 m3 of space would severely limit the number of sentries a drone ship may utilize. Suddenly Ishtars are 1 set of Sentries, 1 Set of heavies.

Food for thought, not necessarily a good idea (and may require balancing the drone bay of other drone boats).
Tyrus Tenebros
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#232 - 2014-07-29 17:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyrus Tenebros
Amarr HACs
I like the position of the sacrilege/zealot. The sacrilege in particular is in a really good place right now. The zealot has always been a good combination of mobility and projection and that hasn't really changed either.

So with that as an idea of a base:

Gallente HACs

Deimos: It cries out to have a utility high returned to it. Cross-referencing the sacri, which is a brick and has high cap strength, the deimos wants to be the fast-attack solo version of the fleet oriented sacrilege. To do that, it needs the nos back! That simple tweak would legitimize the deimos as a solid small-gang ship, particularly with a bit more base cap.

Alternative to base stats tweak, if you want to get more adventurous, small tweaks to cap batteries to make them fit better. (actually, it might work as is, see the spoiler below, but I'd prefer a 1600mm plate on this fit).

I envision a solo fit along these lines, resistant to neuts but requiring careful attention to micromanage:

[Deimos, SoloPassiveCapLife]
800mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Medium Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
Damage Control II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II
True Sansha Armor Explosive Hardener

Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I
Large Peroxide Capacitor Power Cell
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I

Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Heavy Ion Blaster II, Void M
Medium Diminishing Power Drain I

Medium Ancillary Current Router I
Medium Anti-EM Pump I

Valkyrie II x5

The speed difference with the sacrilege is already sufficient to differentiate the ships roles.

this way the vigilant is positioned as a bricktanked, cap-booster using ship, and the deimos as a different style and use of slots.

Ishtar: Remove the sentry role. With the buff to heavy drones, it's no longer necessary to "fix" the ishtar's damage projection with a sentry role.

There's a couple of options once you've done this:

1) Continue with the stratification of drone tiers and give it bonuses to medium drones only. In this case the gall cruiser bonus could be "7.5% bonus to medium drone optimal, tracking, and speed" and "10% bonus to medium drone damage" and HAC skill would be "+5km range" and "5% bonus to medium drone damage" (or 5% pending the exact power balance you want here). This makes it competitive with the gila without creating an obvious winner

2) Make the ishtar's bonuses to medium and heavy, respectively, giving it a broad range of options but not a particular specialist.


This would remove the sentry aspect of the ishtar, but would still make it able to project damage in fleets due to heavies and meds being a bit faster now (~1.8km/s on gecko?) and have the hope of recovering its drones still. Kiting is still feasible, particularly through the use of medium drones, if that route is taken.

In both cases, Eos then retains the heavy bonus, and dominix is stripped of the bonus to Heavy drones and retains only the bonus to sentries (making it a battleship instead of a solopwnmobile)



Minmatar HACs

Muninn is a victim of the meta. It "should" be a competitive boat in mid-range HAC fleets but the projection of scorch overshadows arty a bit, and because of the last few years, people are kinda played out on artymuninn fleets I suppose. It does really lack in the solo department, not having the raw dps of the vaga or the tank/projection/application of the sacrilege. Perhaps the Optimal bonus should be converted to Optimal AND falloff. Then it'd be distinctly better than the vagabond at LR atrillery application, while remaining a slower, less kiting style of boat due to base stats and slot layout.


Vagabond... needs the mids need to be able to be MWD/XLASB/LSE/Disruptor without fitting mods and a full rack of 220s, that might be the fastest way to fix it. More damage projection (the TE and falloff buffs massively improved it, and then the re-nerfed TEs hit it the hardest when they landed, perhaps in the form of a further increased falloff bonus, or a falloff+tracking bonus, especially now that it's in direct competition to RLML boats, particularly the cerb, which basically has it beat hands down in almost all situations.

Alternatively,

Caldari HACs
Cerberus is also in a pretty good place. I think it has (more of) the sort of projection and precision in the RLML configuration that the Vagabond wants to have. The HAM version is certainly interesting, and I'm not quite certain that the community hasn't just not caught on to how to use extreme range HAMs yet, as the on-paper stats certainly seem viable (particularly in a Claymore-Linked gang with Speed+Res links running). I see HACs as a class running MWD+some mods with good cap stability (but possibly lower base cap?). As harsh as it is being in-between the extremely cheap Cruisers and the much more EHP-blessed battlecruisers, the HACs having the "advanced technology" advantage in capacitor, sensor strength, sig bonus, etc., is perfect... keeping them in this niche is fine. Bumping the Cerbs cap just a tiny bit more so it's stable running, say, 2 active mids and the MWD (i.e. permatank and permanrun) would place it in a really solid class of kiting that the game has lacked w

The Eagle needs a 7.5% damage bonus in place of the current 5%, a base speed buff (already included), and MUCH better cap life. That should bring DPS up to be in line with cerb, respecting that rail tracking is "worse" than HAM tracking.
Retar Aveymone
DJ's Retirement Fund
Goonswarm Federation
#233 - 2014-07-29 17:19:47 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Taleden wrote:
Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.


I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

i, too, cite my ratting setups when discussing pvp balance
Rek Seven
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#234 - 2014-07-29 17:19:58 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Sentry drones have enormous downsides. They can be killed like other drones AND they don't return to your ship. There's a reason they were never used at all until assist + these tracking/optimal bonuses came along.


Have you considered changing sentries so that they keep up with and orbit the ship that deploys them? This would effectively turn them into a turret and would allow a pursuer to chase the ship down without it being a suicide run.


perhaps add a new type of sentry drone .. called mobile gundrones or something along those lines...

make ishtar damage bonus tied too them instead .. reduce their dps and range a little .. compared too the current sentries..


Why not just change sentries? It would solve a lot of problems and it makes sense when you think about it... We have combat drones that operate away from the ship, and sentry drones that act as shipboard turrets.
Taleden
North Wind Local no. 612
#235 - 2014-07-29 17:21:28 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Taleden wrote:
Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.


I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.


Do your Oracle's guns track as well, especially when the ship itself is moving, compared to the perfectly stationary sentry drones? Can you tune damage types in your Oracle? Do jams, damps and TDs mitigate your Oracle's damage application?
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#236 - 2014-07-29 17:21:35 UTC
Make drone ship also lose connection to its drones/sentries if jammed by ECM and/or Sensor Damps. That on top of a max range to maintain active connection to drones/sentries would balance sentries and drone boats all around.
Ugly Eric
Drone Renter Federation
#237 - 2014-07-29 17:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Ugly Eric
Cherry Yeyo wrote:


With all due respect, this is your solo play and lack of large fleet experience talking here. 120 Ishtars drop bouncers and run away, kite out to 100-120km going over 2k m/s on the nano shield fit. They only die if the FC screws up really bad and if they DO get in trouble just disengage and run away.

The armor fit with a full rack of damps in the mids is even more ridiculous. These fits sacrifice zero dps for their amazing speed, sig tank and utility.

Nothing ever has been more ridiculous that the current ishtar in a large fleet. You cant have a solo wtfpwnmobile and not expect 0.0 groups to abuse the hell out of it.


damn, the forum ate my reply propably due to double quoting.. darn

So, what I alraedy once wrote I will re-write.

Ishtar is WAY too OP. And it REALLY needs a hammer. It outpowers all the other HAC's completely. If we take a shildfit beam zealot, shieldfit artymuninn and a shieldfit rail eagle, we get close to the range's sentries do. However the ishtar outDPS's everything of those by quite an ease. It out alphas everything of those (at the rangemark of 47km whitch is garde II's + 1 omni to optimal). Muninn has insignificantly better tracking than the gardes, but the difference is minor. And even the other hac's get pretty close in some cases, like the beam zealot, it has to sacrifice 6 slots to weapon upgrades. 3 Heatsinks and 3 TE's to be even close to the ishtar with it's 2 DDA and 1 omnidirectional.

Not to mention the ishtars PG. I dont know, why ppl have not seen any issue here, but can you fit a dualprop HAC with 1600mm plate with guns that can do ~500dps to ~50km without single fitting module? no you cant. Can you fit any other hac to have 100mn AB + 2x LSE to do 700DPS to ~50km without a single fitting module? No you cannot. Or how about a Ishtar with 2x 1600mm rt, active hardeners, 3x tracking links doing 421dps @ 58km while having 105k ehp tank (with fleet bonuses and links) and only using 1 fitting rig on it? No you cant. Well, to be fair, the rail eagle has similar ehp (102k) and similar DPS (402), but tracking is less than half of the ishtar then.

So yes, do small steps, but do atleast big steps enough to make any difference whatsoever. The currently proposed changes will have 0 impact on fleet and small gang warfare.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#238 - 2014-07-29 17:24:28 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Taleden wrote:
Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.


I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

i, too, cite my ratting setups when discussing pvp balance


I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting/PVP hybrid (not the weapon system) Ishtar and my pure PVP Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

Happy now? Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#239 - 2014-07-29 17:25:13 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Make drone ship also lose connection to its drones/sentries if jammed by ECM and/or Sensor Damps. That on top of a max range to maintain active connection to drones/sentries would balance sentries and drone boats all around.


One thing I was really annoyed with: ECM Bursts seems to not effect drones effectively. This should be changed so an ECM burst causes a drone to lose all locks and then aggro based on CCP's wonky drone aggro AI.
Querns
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#240 - 2014-07-29 17:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Taleden wrote:
Sure, it's an interesting bit of variety that drone sizes are not tied to ship classes the way launchers and turrets are, but that puts you in the awkward position of finding a way to balance battleship-level DPS (which sentries clearly are) on a cruiser-class hull.


I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

i, too, cite my ratting setups when discussing pvp balance


I get more tank out of my Oracle than my ratting/PVP hybrid (not the weapon system) Ishtar and my pure PVP Ishtar, while having similar DPS and range.

Happy now? Roll

You're forgetting damage application. Sentries track much, much faster than pulse or beam lasers. Ishtars are also much faster and have much lower signature radiuses than Oracles.

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