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[Hyperion] Heavy Assault Cruiser tweaks

First post First post First post
Author
D-Glester Hardunkichud
Ergonomic Dildonics LLC
#301 - 2014-07-29 19:17:29 UTC
I think that this is an opportunity to add missile launcher hardpoints on the Ishtar. Change one of the bonuses to a rate of fire bonus to festival launchers.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#302 - 2014-07-29 19:17:31 UTC
Not only should ecm break connection with the drones/sentires, but a Tracking Disruptor should affect the ship's drones/sentries as well. If a module on my ishtar can increase the tracking speed or optimal eange of my drones, then enemy tracking disruption hitting my ship should also affect my drones/sentry tracking.
Harvey James
The Sengoku Legacy
#303 - 2014-07-29 19:18:47 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Not only should ecm break connection with the drones/sentires, but a Tracking Disruptor should affect the ship's drones/sentries as well. If a module on my ishtar can increase the tracking speed or optimal eange of my drones, then enemy tracking disruption hitting my ship should also affect my drones/sentry tracking.


I agree along with other changes this could help alleviate the ishtar domination

T3's need to be versatile so no rigs are necessary ... they should not have OP dps and tank

ABC's should be T2, remove drone assist, separate HAM's and Torps range, -3 HS for droneboats

Nerf web strength, Make the blaster Eagle worth using

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#304 - 2014-07-29 19:21:57 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Cerberus, still needs an improvement of its abilities to apply damage with heavy missiles. It is still too much of a one trick pony and hard to justify over better alternatives. it does not need much, a small application bonus to heavy missiles would be sufficient to just lift it into the decent choice category.

Ps I LOVE the Gila, but the ishtar would need quite a rethink if one was going to remove or degrade sentries as some have suggested. Super fast,speed bonused, gila class mediums would be a very very different role for the ship.Shocked slots would need adjusting to keep some semblance of balance due to the rigs. And keeping the shield /armor choices. Wormhole effects are a Real consideration.

I think your step by step approach has merit, but don't please do what you did to the rattlesnake to it. mediums are where the hero drone concepts stops. Beyond that just why?Ugh


If your incremental approach fails to yield the desired results, then the above may be a decent alternative option.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#305 - 2014-07-29 19:23:09 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
This "Ishtar has bonuses to battleship weapons" line that keeps coming up is interesting. We talked about it some earlier here. There's parts of it that we can agree about but it's also something that makes drones interesting across all drone using/bonused ships. You could use the same argument to say that Dominix's shouldn't get bonuses to light drones or that Vexors shouldn't be able to use lights or heavies or sentries.

We feel that in general it's an interesting and positive part of drone design that they aren't fixed to ship sizes nearly as strictly as other weapon types. We just need to find ways to have balanced ships as well.


Ishtar does have bonuses to BS sized weapons system, or did you not pay any attention to the pirate ship balance pass? Look at Guristas' ships, drone sizes are listed there for our pleasure per ship.

Stupid analogue aside, yes drones have downsides in that you need to fly back to them to pick them up. Oh wait, you have 3 flights + depot with an extra flight anyways. Lose all 4 flights? Just run away from bubbles at 2k+ m/s, warp away, get moar drones.

I've been on bombing runs to take out sentry drones and it takes on average 8 bombs detonating within 5 seconds to wipe sentries, meaning you need 2 wings (theoretically 6 is enough but people can fail). After you've done this against an FC, the next thing you see is 100 ishtars pooping drones into a cloud with dimensions 2-4x the size of the bomb explosion radius, meaning you need to field 2-4x more bombers to do the same damage, yet the drones continue applying full DPS if the FC is intelligent at flying the blob of potatoes.

TL;DR: BS weapon system, hard to get rid of outside of killing the drone owner, too much HP, no real downsides because 4 flights per ishtar.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#306 - 2014-07-29 19:23:50 UTC
MeBiatch wrote:
Night Condor wrote:
CCP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

WHAT ABOUT AMARR HAC's ?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


How about
Amarr Cruiser bonuses (per skill level):
5% bonus to light missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile damage
4% bonus to all armor resistances
Heavy Assault Cruisers bonuses (per skill level):
10% bonus to light missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile max velocity
5% bonus to Rapid Light Missile, Heavy Missile and Heavy Assault Missile Launcher rate of fire
Role Bonus:
50% reduction in Microwarpdrive signature radius penalty


The Sacrilege needs to be 6/4/5 or 6/3/6. 7/3/5 would probably be overpowered. The problem is the fourth midslot is useless unless you're running a dualrep active tank, the weapons don't use cap and the capacitor is so good you can permarun a MWD and still have enough cap to run an MAAR out of paste without an injector.
Adrie Atticus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#307 - 2014-07-29 19:24:34 UTC
Ugly Eric wrote:
Budan Kado wrote:
CFC if you cant beat them, nerf them.

Devs I hope you skip over the CFC posting brigade of nerfing. Its sorta personal for them. They cant figure out how to beat them, so they will try to get them nerfed. This isnt a new case, it has happened before with ships.

Its a shame really, they have the biggest collection of players in Nullsec and when they cant out blob something, they run and cry about it to get it nerfed.


Well, the Ishtar needs a nerfhammer like never seen before. This coming out of a dude in alliance flying almost nothing but ishtars on alliance level fleets.

Happy now?


Tri is the only alliance I've ever seen flying Ishtars correctly, Ishtars are stupidly effective in correct hands.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#308 - 2014-07-29 19:24:47 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Not only should ecm break connection with the drones/sentires, but a Tracking Disruptor should affect the ship's drones/sentries as well. If a module on my ishtar can increase the tracking speed or optimal eange of my drones, then enemy tracking disruption hitting my ship should also affect my drones/sentry tracking.


I agree along with other changes this could help alleviate the ishtar domination


At least its not just a hands down nerf to just one ship because everyone uses it. It gives pilots the ability to counter. Its what ECM means, counter measure. Why the ingame counter measures dont already affect drones is beyond my understanding. That should have been a part of EVE a long time ago.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#309 - 2014-07-29 19:27:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Mike Voidstar
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Querns wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
To balance the ishtar I would greatly reduce the target range by 1/3 or to 52.8km. That way if you want to take advantage of the senty range you have to use sensor boosters.

Ishtars will just assign their drones to someone with longer target range.


Just to be sure I understand the mechanic, your sentry will still fire to "drone control range" even if if your enemy is further away from the sentry as long as you direct him to attack while your ship is within targeting range of the enemy right? Like you can put yourself between your sentry and your enemy to reduce the targeting gap but the sentry will fire to your max drone range from their own point in space?



Unless something changed since a month or 3 after the rat agro change when I largely stopped using drones, no. Both your ship and the target must be within drone control range. It's one of the reasons no body ever complained about Garde range, though they were not used much before the battleship rebalance gave them useful range. Other than Garde, any sentry will hit as far away as you can use, their 'superior range' is largely wasted due to drone control limitations.

On the other hand, the idea of limiting the target range as Frostys suggested would change how they are piloted, but not much in how they fight, drone control range would not change, and if sniped from beyond target range the drones would still respond on their own---the main difference would be that they drop sentries and then fly into target range to engage, which many do already anyway.

It's almost a 'be careful what you wish for' scenario. Remove sentries from the Ishtar and you also have to reassign half it's bonuses to other things---currently the ship functionally operates as if it only had 2 bonuses, because you can't fly full flights of heavies and sentries at the same time. If the ship were fairly bonused, it's drone bonuses would be doubled like the Minmitar boat, or else the bonuses would apply to universal drone attributes that worked on all drones.

Using ECM, etc... to break a ships connections with it's drones would make every drone ship utterly useless. Drones come with enough downsides, and a big one is that they are easily destroyed. If they are that much of a problem, just shoot them--- they are not tough, and a sentry has the sig of a stationary cruiser. As was previously discussed, they are limited by drone control range regardless of the range of the sentry itself--- perhaps it's time to revisit the occasional sniping battleship or assault battlecruiser to handle such things. I see this as more of a failure to adapt to drones becoming actually useful in PvP than a problem with the ships using drones. Until the relatively recent changes that gave a free Omni to a couple of drone bonused hulls and the addition of some damage mods, drones were considered pretty useless except as temporary frigate cover. For the ships with the tracking bonuses, all that happened is more dps moved into drones and away from onboard guns.
Nolak Ataru
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#310 - 2014-07-29 19:31:25 UTC
"Lets nerf a ship that uses a broken weapon system for PVP instead of fixing the broken weapon system" - CCP
Aleqs Villint
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2014-07-29 19:36:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi guys

You may or may not have seen me make a post a while back saying that we were intending to do a revisit on battleship and heavy assault cruiser balance for this summer, and I can now be a little more specific with you about that!

[snip]

Ishtar:
Bonus to drone tracking and optimal range from 7.5% per level -> 5% per level
Max Velocity from 195 -> 185

We expect that some of you will feel this is far too gentle on the Ishtar, and we understand that (it's what we heard from the CSM as well), but we get releases very often now and we're happy to be conservative here, rather than nuke it out of the game, and just make more changes if they're needed in the following release.



Incremental nerfs are ok, and in this case forcing the Ishtar to use one of it's slots to maintain parity is a step in the right direction.

That said, and this has been echoed many times in the thread, have you considered looking at Sentry drones? I understand the Ishtar is meant to be the 'sniper' HAC for the Gallente, so maybe a behaviour change for the Sentries is in order, like making them orbit their parent or assigned ship.
Riot Girl
You'll Cowards Don't Even Smoke Crack
#312 - 2014-07-29 19:37:34 UTC
Nolak Ataru wrote:
"Lets nerf a ship that uses a broken weapon system for PVP instead of fixing the broken weapon system" - CCP

They did fix the broken weapon system and now they're even more OP.
Frostys Virpio
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#313 - 2014-07-29 19:40:43 UTC
Riot Girl wrote:
Nolak Ataru wrote:
"Lets nerf a ship that uses a broken weapon system for PVP instead of fixing the broken weapon system" - CCP

They did fix the broken weapon system and now they're even more OP.


They didn't "fix" it, they made it broken in a different way.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#314 - 2014-07-29 19:44:48 UTC
Nerfing the range on the Ishtar is actually fairly significant.

One of the biggest problems with the Ishtar is that it can shoot from outside the range of any medium-sized weapons except for railguns, and railguns shoot into its T2 resists. This is compounded by the fact that the Megathron is vastly superior to all the other gun-based battleships in basically every way, and it's also on kin/therm damage. This makes it very difficult to exploit the Ishtar's major weakness - EM damage.

What are you going to use against a sniping Ishtar fleet? The best option is the Apoc, but Amarr is the least-played race and an Apoc with beams basically requires AWU V to even undock. Large artillery? Proton L has a 96km optimal, it can't really reach a 130km sniping Ishtar and it has problems tracking it even at that range. Medium beams and projectiles don't have the range to hit a sniping Ishtar even on optimal range-bonused ships.

The same problem occurs against brawling Ishtars, close in, lasers have trouble tracking because they have the worst tracking. Autocannons have been nerfed into a godawful weapons system in general and the best missile boats are locked into kinetic (the worst damage type to use against an Ishtar) due to their bonuses. So, how are you going to apply EM? Ishtars are free to fly around with a giant EM hole, confident that it's very difficult for anyone to take advantage.
Sara Tosa
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#315 - 2014-07-29 19:45:29 UTC
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Querns wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
To balance the ishtar I would greatly reduce the target range by 1/3 or to 52.8km. That way if you want to take advantage of the senty range you have to use sensor boosters.

Ishtars will just assign their drones to someone with longer target range.


If ECM and Damps affected a ship's connection with its drones, then it couldnt assign their drones because they'd lose ability to command their drones.

Ewar is the key to balancing OP sentry boats. EWAR needs to affect the connection between ship and its drones.

maybe sentries, if regular drones get immobile becouse ewar they'll get instakilled then the ship (now we arent' talking about ishtar anymore) lose its only weapon.
ewar should be temporary, not a permanent weapon denial.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#316 - 2014-07-29 19:49:29 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
What are you going to use against a sniping Ishtar fleet?

Typhoons.
Altirius Saldiaro
Doomheim
#317 - 2014-07-29 19:49:48 UTC
Sara Tosa wrote:
Altirius Saldiaro wrote:
Querns wrote:
MeBiatch wrote:
To balance the ishtar I would greatly reduce the target range by 1/3 or to 52.8km. That way if you want to take advantage of the senty range you have to use sensor boosters.

Ishtars will just assign their drones to someone with longer target range.


If ECM and Damps affected a ship's connection with its drones, then it couldnt assign their drones because they'd lose ability to command their drones.

Ewar is the key to balancing OP sentry boats. EWAR needs to affect the connection between ship and its drones.

maybe sentries, if regular drones get immobile becouse ewar they'll get instakilled then the ship (now we arent' talking about ishtar anymore) lose its only weapon.
ewar should be temporary, not a permanent weapon denial.



Balancing ewar is a separate topic. Making ewar affect drones just makes too much sense for ccp to implement. There is ECCM which is the counter to ECM. So ecm is not permanent. It can be if you're fitted to make it highly effective. But there are still counters in game for that.
Xequecal
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#318 - 2014-07-29 19:50:48 UTC
Skia Aumer wrote:
Xequecal wrote:
What are you going to use against a sniping Ishtar fleet?

Typhoons.


I'm pretty sure that when you're 130km away, the two-minute warning you get before the missiles actually hit you give you plenty of time to scoop your drones and warp off.
Mike Voidstar
Voidstar Free Flight Foundation
#319 - 2014-07-29 19:55:12 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
Nerfing the range on the Ishtar is actually fairly significant.

One of the biggest problems with the Ishtar is that it can shoot from outside the range of any medium-sized weapons except for railguns, and railguns shoot into its T2 resists. This is compounded by the fact that the Megathron is vastly superior to all the other gun-based battleships in basically every way, and it's also on kin/therm damage. This makes it very difficult to exploit the Ishtar's major weakness - EM damage.

What are you going to use against a sniping Ishtar fleet? The best option is the Apoc, but Amarr is the least-played race and an Apoc with beams basically requires AWU V to even undock. Large artillery? Proton L has a 96km optimal, it can't really reach a 130km sniping Ishtar and it has problems tracking it even at that range. Medium beams and projectiles don't have the range to hit a sniping Ishtar even on optimal range-bonused ships.

The same problem occurs against brawling Ishtars, close in, lasers have trouble tracking because they have the worst tracking. Autocannons have been nerfed into a godawful weapons system in general and the best missile boats are locked into kinetic (the worst damage type to use against an Ishtar) due to their bonuses. So, how are you going to apply EM? Ishtars are free to fly around with a giant EM hole, confident that it's very difficult for anyone to take advantage.



To deal with sentries? Rohk comes to mind, as does any maurader-- large rails will do the job easily, as will beams and cruise...artillery will be in falloff and fire a bit slow for the purpose. Get outside that drone control range--- which is only 100 or less for 99.9999% of all drone boats and you are shooting a stationary cruiser. I don't care how bad you think laser tracking is, they can hit a stationary cruiser which is what a sentry looks like for targeting, and if you can't, it's not like target painters don't exist or are hard to use.

Expensive? perhaps, but it can be done cheaper by the attack battlecruisers. They can counter by picking up their sentries and chasing you, but then they are doing exactly 0 DPS. Stop letting them fight how they want, and this problem will go away.
Skia Aumer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#320 - 2014-07-29 19:56:14 UTC
Xequecal wrote:
when you're 130km away

...then you rewarp.