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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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C C P Alliance
#1 - 2014-03-23 19:40:56 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Hey everyone. Team Five O has been working on a few concepts for improvements to wormhole mechanics and we wanted to run one idea by you all to start some discussion in the community. This idea has already been discussed with the CSM, and we don't currently have specific plans to implement it but we think it's at least worth getting discussion started.

:Edit: Quick clarification, when I say we don't have any specific plans to implement a change I'm not lying. Nothing on this scale would be in the cards for the summer expansion, we're not going to start changing things on this scale without giving them the discussion and feedback time they deserve.

We have been thinking about and discussing the way that the Sensor Overlay has affected Wormhole life, mainly in the ease with which players can now observe new wormhole signatures appearing (which often indicates that the entry of hostile players may be imminent).
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.

The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.

This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.

The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.

This would obviously be a very significant change to wormhole mechanics, and we think it may be a very good opportunity to shake up wormhole life and further encourage the best parts of the wormhole experience.

I'd like to repeat that this change is currently not planned for any specific release, but we would like to start community discussion on the idea and see where it goes.

Let us know what you think in this thread, and we'll be watching closely.
Thanks!
-Fozzie

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Gallente Federation
#2 - 2014-03-23 19:49:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ali Aras
Is "appears on probe scans but not sensor overlay" not possible?

e: I can't read. It seems like "spam probes" is a sort of interesting "vigilance" option, (akin to spamming d-scan, which is already a thing)-- the careless get caught, the careful can still avoid things. OTOH, while I'm interested in this, I'm not a full-time wormholer, so I'll butt out :P

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog

C C P Alliance
#3 - 2014-03-23 19:52:32 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Fozzie
Ali Aras wrote:
Is "appears on probe scans but not sensor overlay" not possible?


Yes, it's very possible, but (as talked about at the summit) it doesn't potentially handle the problem as comprehensively as this.

To clarify, delaying the appearance in just the overlay and delaying it in both the overlay and probe scans would likely take a similar amount of development time.

Game Designer | Team Five-0

Twitter: @CCP_Fozzie
Twitch chat: ccp_fozzie

Gallente Federation
#4 - 2014-03-23 19:53:06 UTC
I'm bad at reading :( See edit.

http://warp-to-sun.tumblr.com -- my blog

#5 - 2014-03-23 19:53:46 UTC
This is a rather drastic change to the balance equations and the way wormhole space is navigated, no longer could K162s be reliably expected as methods of travel, system security would become a nightmare, wormhole travel 'direction' would become one way, down the chain.

One suggestion that I think would balance it decently: Make the signature appear when someone warps to the site. This means, if a scout K162s in, they can warp off the wormhole without the wormhole being detected, its when they go back that a signature is generated.
Sleeper Social Club
#6 - 2014-03-23 19:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: James Arget
I'll get my full post written out when this townhall is over, saving my spot in line for now.

Right then, I'm ducking out early to get this out before I run to work.

During the summit, I was very, very hesitant to endorse this idea. The current situation is, of course, not good, and I would very much like to see sig spawning return to pre-oddyssey behaviours. In particular, I think it's fair that if I want to see new signatures, that I should have to do something in order to gain that intel, and that getting it for free is too generous.

This change would be very very powerful for the spawning party, because even if the party who has been rolled into is actively looking for for incoming connections, they simply do not have a way to know it's there. A 1 tick appearance on dscan (assuming dscan is in range) is not a fair shot at knowing that you have hostiles inbound.

When I heard of this, I said that if such a change was to be enacted, that some kind of limit should be placed on the agressing party. In particular, I suggested that they be unable to leave the grid until the signature appeared. This means for whatever time window that the sig is invisible, a cloaked scout can begin the process of looking for ships, for wrecks, comparing ship losses in the system, identifying POCO owners, adjusting a fleet comp for wh effect, etc. Once the sig is up, they can hit warp to whatever location they've planned to go to, and the defenders are on the clock for realizing that there's a new signature.

This would go beyond rolling back to pre-oddyssey mechanics, and would still make it significantly more dangerous than pre-oddyssey, but would prevent people from getting jumped with absolutely no way to even know there could be ships inbound until they were on grid.

CSM 8 Representative

http://csm8.org

#7 - 2014-03-23 19:56:03 UTC
To me this potential change reaks of another hi-sec type nerf to discourage "safe" areas of resource gathering and sig farming. IMHO, there is enough danger presented as there are always WH entrances and exits that need to be scouted/monitored while doing anything basically.

I dissaprove.

UTM
#8 - 2014-03-23 20:00:20 UTC  |  Edited by: mkint
lol, first you add sensor overlay, then you make it mandatory because 90% of your players would shut it off altogether and that doesn't look good on a resume, and now you're realizing it's causing problems? Who'da thunk.

I'm not a WH dweller, but it makes sense to me to have no sensor overlay at all outside of empire space or maybe even have it highsec-only, especially in w-space. It removes the exploration part of exploration.

From a logical point of view, a wormhole is a wormhole. Why should it make a difference in what end it's being probed out? It's already leaning in favor of whoever's on the other side because they'll already be at 0m to the wormhole and the k162 side would still need to be probed out. The aggressors already have a time advantage.

edit:
and isn't the no local supposed to be the make-it-easy-for-bored-nullbear-aggressors factor?

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

Caldari State
#9 - 2014-03-23 20:01:24 UTC
This is good. I approve.

While you're at it, how about making ships that enter a null or low sec system from a WH in that system have a delayed appearance in local?

Pandemic Legion
#10 - 2014-03-23 20:02:14 UTC
Thank you for considering this. Today it is too easy to passively catch K162s. I am not sure I'd like the K162 being too delayed from probes though. How about 2 minute delay before it can be scanned down and 4 minutes before overlay shows it?
Plucky Adventurers
#11 - 2014-03-23 20:03:08 UTC
Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.

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Red Coat Conspiracy
#12 - 2014-03-23 20:08:54 UTC
By removing the option for probing and seeing a signature on scan, I feel that this will surely increase the risks and danger to wormholes. That being said, I'm of the opinion that making probing options delayed for any amount of time would unbalance the mechanic. If you can't scan, probe, see, or anything of a K162, then what option does the receiving end have?

This option gives the leg up to the aggressor without providing an alternative to those who are proactive on the receiving end of a wormhole. I am all for changing the discovery scanner to only allow an update upon session change or probing for new signatures, but making a K162 unprobable is not an option I support, Fozzie :)

Thanks for pushing discussion from the CCP side, you are doing good things. Let's go ahead and require probing to be required for Grav sites again. That is a fix that would help wormholes too. Thanks

Minister of High Society | Twitter: @autoritare

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Gallente Federation
#13 - 2014-03-23 20:19:29 UTC
Something has to be done. But just when miners were getting excited about the possibilities of wh mining again based on compression arrays, now they will flee because their ore is all in anoms. I love ganking me some miners, but it hardly seems fair to leave them as sitting ducks for 2 minutes. They might as well warp to anom and set the self destruct timer.

[i]"The purpose of fighting is to win. There is no possible victory in defense. The sword is more important than the shield and skill is more important than either. The final weapon is the brain. All else is supplemental[/i]."

Caldari State
#14 - 2014-03-23 20:25:43 UTC
I like the change.

Wormholes are billed as the "dangerous unknown" part of EVE and this would get some of that feel back.

Specifically, I like the idea of delaying k162s from being probed for a period of time, and delay their appearance on the discovery scanner for a longer period of time. There are still ways to get some advance warning even if you can't probe down the sig, so I'm ok with not returning us to a previously mastered status quo.
ChaosTheory.
#15 - 2014-03-23 20:27:01 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:


This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.



It would present more gank targets for sure. I'm all for the idea of making unknown space a bit more so, but asynchrony of information will lead to combat only when it heavily favors the party with the information. So in most cases that will lead to more dead ratters. Not entirely opposed to the idea, I just want to be honest about what kind of conflict it will create.

Perhaps there are other conflict drivers to consider? Though that is almost certainly outside the scope of this proposal.
#16 - 2014-03-23 20:27:17 UTC
I don't know how this change in k162 appearance delay will affect the quality of pvp for entities already willing to fight. I do know that this will lead to a decrease in Wh population for people living just for pve. The same sort of thing happened to c6 space where big groups purged pve entities in c6's. Don't think c6 is better off as a result. From what you are proposinf ccp fozzie, the quality of consensual pvp will remain unchanged but Wh ganking will increase. I'm not sure that's best for W-space. But hey, if you go through with this, we'll adapt.
Caldari State
#17 - 2014-03-23 20:29:27 UTC
Saede Riordan wrote:
This is a rather drastic change to the balance equations and the way wormhole space is navigated, no longer could K162s be reliably expected as methods of travel, system security would become a nightmare, wormhole travel 'direction' would become one way, down the chain.

One suggestion that I think would balance it decently: Make the signature appear when someone warps to the site. This means, if a scout K162s in, they can warp off the wormhole without the wormhole being detected, its when they go back that a signature is generated.


I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.

Uncle Traveling Matt wrote:
To me this potential change reaks of another hi-sec type nerf to discourage "safe" areas of resource gathering and sig farming. IMHO, there is enough danger presented as there are always WH entrances and exits that need to be scouted/monitored while doing anything basically.

I dissaprove.

UTM


Wormhole space is not highsec and should not be anything like it. There are other areas of space that offer varying degrees of safety, but wormhole space was never billed as being anything other than the most dangerous of space.
Rura-Penthe
#18 - 2014-03-23 20:31:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiri Dasmijn
Since I am a wormhole dweller, I will respond.

Not sure why the original changes to the Scanner Overlay were made to begin with. The old way is closer to what you are proposing.

In either case, I would remove all signatures as populating automatically in a wormhole. All would require a scan. (That's the old way, I suppose?). That was more 'dangerous'.

As for a delay, just plain silly. Breaks logic. I would not make them populate into the scanner without a scan. But we currently have this Sensor Overlay. So it only works in Hi/low/null sec? Breaks logic again.

If a delay is coming irregardless, then either dependent on mass, and/or number of activations.

The proposed change makes vigilance pointless and seems to punish those that are. Or the reverse, it just paves the way for free sneak attacks that are already pretty easy considering the probe scanner list populates everything except data/relic/wormholes.

In the above I am referencing Scanner Overlay and Probe Scan List separetely.

Wormhole PvP is not centered around detection (well, sort of but not in the way you think) in either case, it is centered around the life/mass/polarization of a womrhole. 99% of battles are on the wormhole, not out in the system. Ships don't warp off to that ore site to bait you, they wait at the hole with support on the other side. So doubt even if this was implimented things would change, except the bait would have to wait X time to be noticed.

As for ganking? Who are you going to gank? 99% of wormhole dwellers are sitting in a PoS. You can already warp to that Ore site, it populates free. How slow can you possibly be if this is what you were planning anyway that you need a delay. Scanning it down has already been done for you. Point is, gankers want easy targets. If there is activity at an Ore Site? Likely a bunch of active players, and they aren't that brave.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#19 - 2014-03-23 20:32:22 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:

I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.


The problem is not in the mechanic in and of itself - but in the fact that there is no good counter at all. Which is why the earlier suggestions of not allowing them to be passively detected - but allowing active detection seems to be better.

Goonswarm Federation
#20 - 2014-03-23 20:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Schwa Nuts
Two step wrote:
Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.


I completely disagree with the notion that you can farm wormholes nearly risk free. Twice in two months I've lost my C5 capital fleet to logoff traps, and I had friends evicted from theirs just a few weeks ago. The merits of the change I'm still vascillating on, but the statement that it's nearly risk free to farm wormholes is, in my opinion, just not true.

There seems to be a lot of angry ranting from gankers who feel like they should be given as many advantages as possible in order to win a fight. If there is enough preparation on the side of those looking for the fight, they have, as it stands, a pretty clear advantage already.
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