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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Author
Nix Anteris
The Dark Space Initiative
Initiative Mercenaries
#621 - 2014-03-26 13:39:09 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
add some new content don't nerf something that is working fine.


This is what we were saying in the prelude to the scan overlay in the first place ;)
Yalawni
Demonstrably False
#622 - 2014-03-26 13:51:36 UTC
Deeply depressed by this it smacks so much of poorly executed damage control.

What the hell was wrong with the way it was BEFORE the overlay? If you were lazy and didn't keep an effective watch out for newly spawned wormholes you got caught with your pants down and paid the price. If you kept probes out and constantly scanned you, (mostly), avoided surprises. This was not broken.

The automatic overlay created a problem, in that it made it too easy for farmers to avoid consequences, but now this proposed 'fix' would swing the pendulum too far in the other direction. Again I ask... what was wrong with the original way things worked before the overlay?

CCP, please just have the honesty to admit a mistake was made there and remove it returning things to how they were before.

o/
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#623 - 2014-03-26 14:19:39 UTC
For all the folk in favor of more pew - this is not a good direction.

This is going to drive out wormhole space's favorite targets. The already rare mining corps are going to be pretty close to non-existent. The farmers and new corps are going to leave too. It's not like even the 'safety' features have made every W system inhabited, this will not improve the situation.

Essentially this turns W-space into PI in stabbed/nano/cloaked epithals or gangs of T3s.

This K162 deal is a special kind of **** move that blatently only favors one playstyle. EvE has always functioned in a way so that if you understand the risk you can mitigate it (moving expensive stuff? web sling. Gate camps? Npc Alt. New sigs? use active probes). This makes it impossible to mitigate risk other than limiting the ships you fly to mitigate loss or just choosing not to engage in PVE activities.

Seriously, when the discovery scanner was released your subs went way up - PVP groups bitched about it because it made their job more difficult. You actually have new players talking about exploration as a career path in multiple subforums weekly, which DID NOT happen pre release. There are some new WH corps talking in W-space forums. These have all been, overall positive changes.

The discovery scanner / probes are our local. Don't **** on the little guy CCP.
Von Keigai
#624 - 2014-03-26 14:24:23 UTC
Nix Anteris wrote:
how about tying dungeon visibility to ship visibility. The signature remains undetectable for as long as no ship has de-cloaked on grid. As soon as cloak is broken to warp, launch probes, jump back, whatever, then the signature is visible to all.

Good idea. Several people have proposed it so far. (I proposed it on page 18.)

It's kind of like what Fozzie is getting at, using "1 minute" as the length of time, except that Fozzie's idea allows the scout to do whatever he wants. Using gatecloak-dropping as the K162-is-scannable event means that the scout can only do a limited set of things in the undetectable state. As you say. Fozzie's idea is far too generous to the aggressor.

I don't think that hunters need a huge edge, but I do they need a bit more. Wspace PVE is currently too safe, at least in C1-4. I have no opinion on the balance in C5+.

vonkeigai.blogspot.com

Nix Anteris
The Dark Space Initiative
Initiative Mercenaries
#625 - 2014-03-26 14:35:56 UTC
Von Keigai wrote:

It's kind of like what Fozzie is getting at, using "1 minute" as the length of time, except that Fozzie's idea allows the scout to do whatever he wants. Using gatecloak-dropping as the K162-is-scannable event means that the scout can only do a limited set of things in the undetectable state.


My reasoning was that the skilled or the lucky could get a fleet halfway in warp before the timer pops the signature, with it triggered on de-cloaking then it's visible at the point you decide to take action and actually makes optimal use of the limited time a tactical thing (the difference between "there's ships somewhere over there - I'll just drop probes" and "there's ships roughly 1AU from planet X towards the sun - I need to drop my probes and be fast"), with various ways you can actually screw yourself if you're not careful.

P.S. Bring back old session timers.
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#626 - 2014-03-26 14:50:34 UTC
Bleedingthrough wrote:

Not only can C5 and C6 groups roll their statics to other C5+s more reliably in one go but also with about half the number of accounts involved compared to a typical lower class WH static. While C5+ groups with lower class static “should” have the numbers to abuse the proposed mechanic to their advantage, who chain rolls lower class WH statics for PvP anyways? Way to painful, way too few targets!
It is needless to say that most lower class WH groups don’t have the numbers to roll in one go on a daily basis. Most of their PvP (from my experience) comes from their chain or people trying to crush connection a WH or do something else foolish.


We can roll our C4>C2 up to 20 times in an hour if that is our want for pvp rather than tracking the chain so I think you're a little out of touch because we're not alone. It takes 1 t3 prober/tackle scout and 4 orcas (or 2 orcas and 4 orca pilots) to roll. Having lived in C5 it normally takes Scout + dread + 2 orcas to roll so 1 less pilot + more chance of extra ship need because of larger mass variance so no real difference. Don't count us "low class" people out.

Either way the rest of your post is redundant in my opinion as it still remains a completely non-counterable implementation regardless of equations, class v timer fappings or anything else.
If we are now looking at the "what if we have to come up with something as a conciliation" then CCP aren't reading, CSM aren't representing (Chitsa your job is to represent the majority opinions of your constituents regardless of your own opinions so do your job!) and we already gave up holding our own ground.
For the record the only think I love more than shooting a ratter in a WH is shooting him slowly and waiting for him or his corp to escalate in rage but I do not support any part of the proposed OP in any way.
Sad,

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#627 - 2014-03-26 15:30:44 UTC
Fozzie..... Do something..... this is getting out of hand
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#628 - 2014-03-26 16:22:29 UTC
1. Disagree that there should be a delay to K162 being scannable/probable. As previous posters have said, any new site should be detectable/scannable by some means immediately, that is a basic game principle.

2. Also DISAGREE that the discovery scanner should be removed from w-space entirely. The old way forced PvE fleets to use a dedicated scanner/alt to spam the scan button over and over to find new sigs. This is an incredibly stupid and boring role, a job that nobody wants, even on an alt. There is far and away enough scanning/probing in w-space already. I do it every day and it is freaking boring and monotonous. But it is the cost of doing business so that I can do the things that I love about w-space. Frankly there should be more variety and incentive to probe/scan in w-space. That is not to say that I like the idea of removing the defending NPCs from exploration sites like was done in High/Low/Null. But at least there is an incentive for probing/scanning in K-space -by itself-. Such does not exist to reward this profession in w-space without major investment into ratting skills (ghost sites are too rare to count).

3. If a timer is going to be put in no matter what I say, please please scale it by wormhole class. C1's should be close to instant. C2 and up, progressively longer timer. Also might be interesting to have a secondary mass trigger that also scales by wormhole class. But the whole idea of a delay is not something I like.

4. My suggestion is similar to other posters. K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship passes through it (and not before). At worst, K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship decloaks after passing through. K162 should also be scannable via probes in the same manner, i.e. it can be scanned with probes when the FIRST ship passes through it.

5. Please please please for the love of all that is wormholey, please make ore sites into sigs again. Ore anomalies are so depressing, because there's no point in risking a barge over cheap ore that I could mine on a highsec or sov nullsec alt with almost no risk. Why risk getting podded and sent back to empire flying a defenseless barge that dies to any old lazy pirate that roams through? And oh look, now they get a timer so I can't even see the K162 open up. Yeah. That's balanced. My how w-space mining is dying a horrible and ugly death. Send halp pleaaase

6. For those complaining about low site/salvage values, its high fricking time that CCP expanded the portfolio of T3 ships that can be produced exclusively in WH space. Its been god knows how many years since they did anything with w-space production. That's where most of the problem is really. At least the subsystems need to be rebalanced so that they are all useful. But really there needs to be some more w-space exclusive hulls, and some more tying of w-space production to the high/low/null production chains. Also starbase-related towers/modules should have some w-space exclusives. There should absolutely be a w-space exclusive gas-harvesting ship. There's so much to be done here and it would totally fix site values.
Bjurn Akely
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#629 - 2014-03-26 18:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjurn Akely
Maduin Shi wrote:
1. Disagree that there should be a delay to K162 being scannable/probable. As previous posters have said, any new site should be detectable/scannable by some means immediately, that is a basic game principle.

2. Also DISAGREE that the discovery scanner should be removed from w-space entirely. The old way forced PvE fleets to use a dedicated scanner/alt to spam the scan button over and over to find new sigs. This is an incredibly stupid and boring role, a job that nobody wants, even on an alt. There is far and away enough scanning/probing in w-space already. I do it every day and it is freaking boring and monotonous. But it is the cost of doing business so that I can do the things that I love about w-space. Frankly there should be more variety and incentive to probe/scan in w-space. That is not to say that I like the idea of removing the defending NPCs from exploration sites like was done in High/Low/Null. But at least there is an incentive for probing/scanning in K-space -by itself-. Such does not exist to reward this profession in w-space without major investment into ratting skills (ghost sites are too rare to count).

3. If a timer is going to be put in no matter what I say, please please scale it by wormhole class. C1's should be close to instant. C2 and up, progressively longer timer. Also might be interesting to have a secondary mass trigger that also scales by wormhole class. But the whole idea of a delay is not something I like.

4. My suggestion is similar to other posters. K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship passes through it (and not before). At worst, K162 is pushed to discovery scanner when the FIRST ship decloaks after passing through. K162 should also be scannable via probes in the same manner, i.e. it can be scanned with probes when the FIRST ship passes through it.

5. Please please please for the love of all that is wormholey, please make ore sites into sigs again. Ore anomalies are so depressing, because there's no point in risking a barge over cheap ore that I could mine on a highsec or sov nullsec alt with almost no risk. Why risk getting podded and sent back to empire flying a defenseless barge that dies to any old lazy pirate that roams through? And oh look, now they get a timer so I can't even see the K162 open up. Yeah. That's balanced. My how w-space mining is dying a horrible and ugly death. Send halp pleaaase

6. For those complaining about low site/salvage values, its high fricking time that CCP expanded the portfolio of T3 ships that can be produced exclusively in WH space. Its been god knows how many years since they did anything with w-space production. That's where most of the problem is really. At least the subsystems need to be rebalanced so that they are all useful. But really there needs to be some more w-space exclusive hulls, and some more tying of w-space production to the high/low/null production chains. Also starbase-related towers/modules should have some w-space exclusives. There should absolutely be a w-space exclusive gas-harvesting ship. There's so much to be done here and it would totally fix site values.


I find your lack of comprehension of what 'the most dangerous and unforgiving space in Eve' means disturbing.

Sure, scanning and being scout can be boring. But it is a price that wormholers ALWAYS have paid in order to minimize the risk of annihilation. Having assets diverted ti those tasks is THE ONLY THING that motivates the pretty good payout we get for the PvE we do. Yeah, I do PvE too. Our fleet has usually 3-6 scouts covering the fleet. Those people get part of the share, of course, as they do an important task.

It's whining like this that makes me move into holes with people. Thanks, now you've made me grumpy. Blink

I do agree with the mining sites being moved back to sigs... But ONLY if there is infinite delay and the sigs require probes to find. If I should have to probe your Retriever down you should have to probe the entrance down. Seems fair, right.
Zingr
Doomheim
#630 - 2014-03-26 18:26:54 UTC
zoonr wrote:
This change only make sense if the same is done for local in every part of Eve, for pilots entering a system via a stargate or a WH.
They should not appear in local for the same amount of time (may be linked to the mass of their ship as suggested).

otherwise, it will unfairly affect the W H players.

CCP, please stay fair in this issue. As the concept is a good one, but there is no reason to only apply it only to WH residents.


I'm with you, bro..
Kirasten
Perkone
Caldari State
#631 - 2014-03-26 18:51:45 UTC
I sure hope that I am not the only one who has commented here that this idea is maybe the worst idea for wormhole space I have ever heard. The trouble with wormhole space is that it needs MORE people, not more ganks.

The current system (or going back to having to scan it down with probes) offers a defense, but that defense is only for the vigilant. There are plenty of ganks that still go on on a day to day basis. Do you really think that Blood Union needs a delay to be on top of your escalation fleet? If it's taking you too long to find targets when jumping into a new hole, get better scouts.

A much more pressing problem in W-space is the lack of PEOPLE in it. We go hole to hole to hole and see no sign of life anywhere. If those holes were filled with people, there would be no need to have this discussion. And this discussion will make that problem even worse! How many people do you think you will find living in wormholes if this goes through? This will create a mass exodus.

Please don't ruin wormhole space.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
#632 - 2014-03-26 18:55:17 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
I'm surprised everyone wants that annoying having to probe every second trick. how about something to give people a good reason to flow through WH space and not just live there. something like an ESS for WH space. doesn't have to be about rats could be about moon goo for example. add some new content don't nerf something that is working fine.


Most of us don't want less scanning and certainly no moon goo.

No trolling please

Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#633 - 2014-03-26 19:24:55 UTC
I would like the devs or csm to answer me one question. Why do we need more PvP like this in wormhole?

To lure more people in or to evict more out of wormhole space? To make it more fun? Which is always discutable. This change surely brings less fun to me and everyone doing PvE in wormholes. And admit it that we all are in wormholes because of sleeper loot. Not to mention that this change looks quite illogical and not consistent with general scanner mechanics.
Icewolf7
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#634 - 2014-03-26 19:51:25 UTC
Seems like your looking for low hanging fruit / quick fix to help WH pvp.

But this idea only helps the pvper's who actively roll their static to look for targets and punishes people for running combat/mining sites.

One thing that could be a "quick fix" would be to lower the scan strength / time to Find wh's sigs. It would make it faster to go from wh to wh locate a "Good fight" or "Gank".


The real problem seems to be finding pvp. You can spend hours scanning down system's and find no one(decloaked that is). Now the only Natural way to increase pvp in wh's would be to increase the population of them with re-balancing the isk gain/loss ratio.

And its obvious the incentives for wh space are not measuring up to major alternatives of making isk passive or active.

Ratting in Null? local and Intel channels
Incursions? High sec ganking if you fit your ship to shiney
Moon goo? setup and "meta politics"
Anything in worm holes? Clicking D scan or sig watching



Perhaps its time for a more open and larger scale discussion on adding content to W-space so that more pilots and corporations see the value of exploring and settling in wh's



PS: bring back the WH wiggle's when you started warp on a wh, I had hours of fun spamming that on people who were camping a wh.
Maduin Shi
MAGA Inc
#635 - 2014-03-26 19:58:01 UTC
Bjurn Akely wrote:


I find your lack of comprehension of what 'the most dangerous and unforgiving space in Eve' means disturbing.

Sure, scanning and being scout can be boring. But it is a price that wormholers ALWAYS have paid in order to minimize the risk of annihilation. Having assets diverted ti those tasks is THE ONLY THING that motivates the pretty good payout we get for the PvE we do. Yeah, I do PvE too. Our fleet has usually 3-6 scouts covering the fleet. Those people get part of the share, of course, as they do an important task.

It's whining like this that makes me move into holes with people. Thanks, now you've made me grumpy. Blink

I do agree with the mining sites being moved back to sigs... But ONLY if there is infinite delay and the sigs require probes to find. If I should have to probe your Retriever down you should have to probe the entrance down. Seems fair, right.


Learn to read the entire post before misinterpreting what I say pls. I am in favor of reasonable changes to make w-space more dangerous. I am in favor of improvements to site values that would mean more isk and more content for all of us, and would not require diverting more pilots and effort to probing (which I believe can be toned down and/or given more incentives (e.g. wallet) without making w-space less dangerous). Site values are not derived just from having to probe everything, which only cuts supply, and for all the wrong reasons, and does nothing to address demand.
Bjurn Akely
WiNGSPAN Delivery Services
WiNGSPAN Delivery Network
#636 - 2014-03-26 20:11:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bjurn Akely
Maduin Shi wrote:
Bjurn Akely wrote:


I find your lack of comprehension of what 'the most dangerous and unforgiving space in Eve' means disturbing.

Sure, scanning and being scout can be boring. But it is a price that wormholers ALWAYS have paid in order to minimize the risk of annihilation. Having assets diverted ti those tasks is THE ONLY THING that motivates the pretty good payout we get for the PvE we do. Yeah, I do PvE too. Our fleet has usually 3-6 scouts covering the fleet. Those people get part of the share, of course, as they do an important task.

It's whining like this that makes me move into holes with people. Thanks, now you've made me grumpy. Blink

I do agree with the mining sites being moved back to sigs... But ONLY if there is infinite delay and the sigs require probes to find. If I should have to probe your Retriever down you should have to probe the entrance down. Seems fair, right.


Learn to read the entire post before misinterpreting what I say pls. I am in favor of reasonable changes to make w-space more dangerous. I am in favor of improvements to site values that would mean more isk and more content for all of us, and would not require diverting more pilots and effort to probing (which I believe can be toned down and/or given more incentives (e.g. wallet) without making w-space less dangerous). Site values are not derived just from having to probe everything, which only cuts supply, and for all the wrong reasons, and does nothing to address demand.


I understood you the first time. I'm just of the opinion that you want to have it too easy. Our opinions differ. I was also trying to be a bit funny. I'm sorry I was bad at getting that across.
Talon Kane
ExeKrab
#637 - 2014-03-26 20:19:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Talon Kane
devian chase wrote:
You guys all want easier ganks .
But if you cant get a fleet going in the 2-3 minutes it takes for a pve fleet to clear a site of pointing sleepers you dont deserve the kill :)
Ganking shouldnt be made easier ...
We just need more ppl in wh space , since incursions you can get the same isk/h and group pve totaly safe in high sec or get more doing the FW thing
K-space ppl dont go up for day trips to wh space at all anymore
there just isnt a reason for ppl to come up to wh space , everything up here takes way more effort and coordination

if you want to improve wh space :
1 remove escalation waves ,will force ppl to do sites in small pve fleets again outside of their capital infested home
2 add c1-3 site spawns to c5 classes as well , so ppl dont need the 6+ gang to do stuff
3 add pointy sleepers to all c1-3 sites
4 small buff to the loot of all sleeper sites
5 add more content like ded plexes / sansha stuff to wh space


This!

and this !

« I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer ».

♣♣♣ I offer a character pricecheck service ♣♣♣

Oska Rus
Free Ice Cream People
#638 - 2014-03-26 22:47:07 UTC
devian chase wrote:

1 remove escalation waves ,will force ppl to do sites in small pve fleets again outside of their capital infested home

fastest way to clear C5+ space.
unimatrix0030
Mass Collapse
It Must Be Jelly Cause Jam Don't Shake
#639 - 2014-03-26 23:02:02 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
Why do you guys always say that this would only benefit dudes who don't scan their chain?
This carefree PVE wich drives down prices and make c1-c4 residents complain that their risk/reward ratio is so low is a real problem and effect everyone!
If down the chain you are scanning a wormhole with no active residents then by scanning you spawn the static of this hole.
But guess what before you even land at that hole the residents in there have already fled to their pos.
So scanning the static also delivers less targets then before.
Kills are down for all pvp alliances, by a big factor.
PVE prices are going down by the minute because of overproduction and no demand because of an upcoming t3 nerf.
The price of each T3 hull has droped at least 50 mil since last year.
The only influx of people we have is because of the null sec situation.

I DO want more people in w-space.
But the carefree pve'ing must stop so that the rest of us can make more isk.
T3's shouldn't be nerfed but buffed so more loot is sold. And buffed in the way that they are usefull in more then just wormholes.

So the carefree oddesy immediate pop up of sigs need to stop.

Either bring back the pre oddesy system, where sigs don't get autorefilled in the probe scanner.

Or bring in a delay to fill in the probe scanner , unless you are activly probing with probes.
We need the probing for the new players.
Probing in w-space is life, you provide yourself and yours with info, security, isk and targets by probing.
Not to probe in w-space is certain death.
That way the defenders are rewarded by scanning and the attackers at least have a chance to get a target.
Scanning is searching for the will of BOB.

Don't talk about giving us an ess in w-space if the one in null sec doesn't work to give fights.

Ore sites will be repopulated after the reprocessing changes since it would actualy be worth it to mine in w-space after those.

Give us more unique things to make, find, shoot, ... .

We Don't NEED or WANT a local in w-space, it has been fine before , now it is causing the problems we have in w-space.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#640 - 2014-03-26 23:59:57 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)