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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Author
Nyx STeeLGamers
Kenshin.
The Initiative.
#21 - 2014-03-23 20:35:14 UTC
If you really would like to make wormholes more fun and pvp oriented CCP Fozzie then please change the mechanic where a wormhole doesn't spawn on the other side till its warped to. Change it to spawning on both sides the minute it appears on static side. This is a much better change than delaying it on the k162 side.
Raddan Eldre'Thalas
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
#22 - 2014-03-23 20:38:24 UTC
I have to disagree with this change,

Wormholes are already dangerous, even if your on your A-game the situation can change in a matter of moments. Most of the hunting that takes place in wormholes is done directly on the hole. Now we just have a bunch of ships sitting around a hole for X-amount of minutes waiting for the sig to pop up.

pushing a delay timer will seriously unbalance the receiving end of a K162. If you want to increase the PvP in wormholes then give people a reason to come into a wormhole rather than chase them out, like adding content to attract visitors. Bringing in more people to wormholes will surely increase the PvP.
Kurt Konrad Rimfrost
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
#23 - 2014-03-23 20:38:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kurt Konrad Rimfrost
These proposed changes concern me

I do live in a wormhole, and I have traveled into other parts of wormhole space. As of right now, from my experience, I do not feel that there is "little risk" without consistent and careful scouting of your own wormhole. I don't believe that those who actively plan ahead and run recon should be penalized for their play style because roaming fleets looking for pvp can't catch the well organized corporation off guard.

We have come across wormholes plenty of times where people where running PI and doing their own thing and never even noticed that they had an incoming hole. Why? because they aren't actively keeping an eye out. As of right now, you only know you have an incoming hole if you've scanned everything else down so you know which is the new signature that has shown up on scans. Then you still have to scan it down to find out if it's a wormhole or just a gas site that has spawned. Womhole dwellers who actively keep their Combat Anomaly's clear can make spotting sigs easier, but they still have to track and label their comsic signatures.

But to be fair, here are a couple of suggestions that might help with those who are of a different opinion:

  • classify all ore and combat sites within W-space as Cosmic Signatures so that everything in womrhole space MUST be scanned. This away there are many more signatures that must actively be accounted for.
  • Disable the Sensor Overlay in W-Space without changing the Probe Scanner mechanics
  • IF you change the timing on any of the Cosmic Signature apperances, make the timing relevant to the level of the wormhole. For istance, C1 and C2 are not effected by changes, but C3 and C4 have a slight delay (less than a minute) while C5 and C6 can have a larger delay. HOWEVER, I an personally not in favor of changing this mechanic at all.
  • Increase the reasons for people to come to W-Space in the first place. Higher traffic through W-Space equals more chances of PvP
Kastsion Strax
4 Marketeers
Rura-Penthe
#24 - 2014-03-23 20:38:37 UTC
WH are a dangerous place already, do you really think you need to complicate that area of the game further? Also I think a tunnel though space time tearing open would be a fairly significant cosmic event at the level of tech the EVE universe seems to exist at I would say its safe to bet that much energy would not go unnoticed.

Allow us to intelligently defend our selves out there CCP, not every thing needs to be a meat grinder.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#25 - 2014-03-23 20:40:16 UTC
Intana Kreis wrote:
Klarion Sythis wrote:

I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.


The problem is not in the mechanic in and of itself - but in the fact that there is no good counter at all. Which is why the earlier suggestions of not allowing them to be passively detected - but allowing active detection seems to be better.


Allowing active detection or not during the delay is a valid debate, but my response above was aimed at the apparent misconception that k162s simply cannot be found...or something. The person's concerns I was addressing seemed to be based in misunderstanding.

I'm still in favor of even a probing delay, but I understand that it represents a significant risk increase and perhaps everyone wouldn't care for that. There are still things you can do to be better prepared for any chain rolling fleets though, so it isn't totally without counters.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#26 - 2014-03-23 20:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Not a fan of any system that does not permit an active player to detect incoming threats.

Removal of auto update without probes? Go ahead.

Continuing ability to use probes to detect an incoming WH as soon as it spawns? Definately.

But If a party can get open up a WH, potentially far from any other celestial, then bring people into system for several minutes before it appears on system scan or probe scan, that really tilts things far too far in the aggressors favor.

Having alts in within dscan range of every celestial after closing all incoming holes and rolling static, then constantly spamming dscan on every one and hoping that they don't get a cloaky in between 2 second pings should not be a requirement for best possible safety. (Barring having been previously seeded)

Just my two cents.
Proclus Diadochu
Mar Sarrim
Red Coat Conspiracy
#27 - 2014-03-23 20:46:14 UTC
Klarion Sythis wrote:
Intana Kreis wrote:
Klarion Sythis wrote:

I think you've drastically missed what this change is talking about. K162s will still exist, can still be probed, and can still be navigated. There's just some undecided amount of delay before you can do so. Probably irrelevant in most cases except in the if a hostile fleet is already formed up on the other side.


The problem is not in the mechanic in and of itself - but in the fact that there is no good counter at all. Which is why the earlier suggestions of not allowing them to be passively detected - but allowing active detection seems to be better.


Allowing active detection or not during the delay is a valid debate, but my response above was aimed at the apparent misconception that k162s simply cannot be found...or something. The person's concerns I was addressing seemed to be based in misunderstanding.

I'm still in favor of even a probing delay, but I understand that it represents a significant risk increase and perhaps everyone wouldn't care for that. There are still things you can do to be better prepared for any chain rolling fleets though, so it isn't totally without counters.


Having a PVP fleet on standby incase you are dropped seems like one of the counter options I'd imagine you are eluding, however this requires numbers, and smaller groups won't be able to achieve this counter. This idea will make lower class wormholers struggle to find any reasonable counter to a gank.

This idea is great to catch the C5/C6 capital escalating farmers and would definitely harm their game, but the other wormhole residents throughout the area, and the larger picture has to be seen. What other counters could be considered that would make this change viable?

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Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2014-03-23 20:46:29 UTC
I disagree with there being no way of knowing whether there is a new sig or not. If "defenders" are on the ball and actively looking for incoming wormholes, they should be allowed to find them. Such blanket delay would also make seeding practically uncounterable.

imho the delay should be on the overlay and self-populating sig list, not when using probes (5-15 minutes?)

More helpful would be automatically spawning both sides of new holes, ie. no "not warping to the static" to keep K162 unspawned.... and delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec, pretty please.
Enta en Bauldry
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2014-03-23 20:48:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Enta en Bauldry
TLDR: dislike

I'll preface this by saying I'm all for shaking up W-Space. Be it through added randomization, new content or just changes to mechanics considered stable.

A two minute delay essentially provides two minutes of near-absolute(except for the split-second Dscan) cover for intel gathering and preparation for the entry side. In order to turn this into an advantage you need unfriendly people in space, assuming day-to-day business. This mostly influences ganks or gives the entry side a chance to quickly roll the hole if they end up connecting to entities they don't wish to.

W-Space often doesn't have enough targets, which seems to be a stated by many people from all areas of it, except for carebears and daytrippers. If this change does increase the amount of ganks in the long run anybody who doesn't like the new risk/reward pattern will pack up and leave. They don't necessarily have to be carebears. Ex: If a C3 corp can't fund its activities anymore because they lose too many assets to ganks instead of consensual or at least interesting PvP they leave. This will generate a new equilibrium where you'll probably end up getting a similar amount of PvP compared to now, just more holes will be empty. I'll let the C5-C6 guys speak for their own thing but farming in low-end WHs take quite a long time, where(assuming C3) sites only generate ~45M in loot. I sincerely believe that getting more corps into W-Space is the answer to the "not enough action" problem, which IMO can only be solved through making W-Space more interesting.

As for the opportunity to quickly roll the fresh hole: if you get connected to somebody you don't like, too bad. Deal with it or actually risk your battleship(low class) or dread(C5-6) to get rid of them.
ZergRushJohnny
The Order of Atlas
#30 - 2014-03-23 20:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: ZergRushJohnny
My initial thought is that I would be fine removeing them from the sensor overlay, and make them not-instantly available to be seen on the cosmic sigs list in the scanner window. However, they could still be seen with a probe scan.

I wouldn't want them removed from probe view, this would change the entire dynamic of navigating wormhole space, restricting a lot of our chains because people couldn't probe down the exits (or even know they are there). There's benefits when it comes to ganking sure, but I think it would be too much of a pain in the arse. Not to mention people actively keeping an eye out should be rewarded.

Besides, I don't really care if people are alerted to my presence because they are vigilant (probe spamming), but instantly appearing (current system) might be a little obvious and lazy.

On the other hand, if it didn't appear on the scanner list right away, but you were able to probe it down, you would know instantly what signatures were k162 and which weren't.

Really I'm personally find with the current system though.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#31 - 2014-03-23 20:55:34 UTC
Proclus Diadochu wrote:
Having a PVP fleet on standby incase you are dropped seems like one of the counter options I'd imagine you are eluding, however this requires numbers, and smaller groups won't be able to achieve this counter. This idea will make lower class wormholers struggle to find any reasonable counter to a gank.

This idea is great to catch the C5/C6 capital escalating farmers and would definitely harm their game, but the other wormhole residents throughout the area, and the larger picture has to be seen. What other counters could be considered that would make this change viable?

I can add 2 more ideas off the top of my head:

System size and celestial layout are already considerations when choosing a home. If you get a small system, it's easier to have a single character using D-Scan looking for new scouts. Bigger systems make it harder to find your ratters, but also harder to find their scouts. It's not unreasonable to think that anyone running sites would spread their alts out to be mashing D-Scan. This is EVE, and people go to pretty impressive lengths once they need to.

The other thing is that a capital escalation fleet can still be fit and positioned to be a force to be reckoned with. Mobile depots also help so your whole capital group doesn't have to sit on top of each other for carrier refits. You can shield tank your dreads instead of the single rep armor setups that die in a fire when dropped. Foolproof? No. But to say there's nothing that can be done isn't true either.

As for smaller class holes, I admit I have no experience there. I'm sure the same principles apply, but maybe that's a good argument for the sig delay scaling with wormhole class.
Angsty Teenager
Broski North
#32 - 2014-03-23 20:55:45 UTC
Yes 100% this would be great fozzie. Many people seem to think that it wouldn't be fair to people running sites or whatever in wormholes, but in reality running sites right now is pretty much a zero risk affair, and even prior to sigs being shown immediately on the probe scanner, with just a core scanner probe at 64 AU you could achieve the same thing. Granted you are still subject to logoff traps, but it's pretty much risk free pve.
Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2014-03-23 20:56:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvanium Orlenard
If this change goes through, then I suspect that most WH dwelers, myself included, will start spamming combat probe scan, but more importantly combat probe scan for ships.

This most definitally forces the residents / farmers to be active and on the ball, it adds the extra hassle of having to ignore you own fleet and whatever towers are on Combat Probe Scan at the start of the farming op and then forces them to actively combat probe scan the entire system. Any new ship appears on combat probe scan forces an ivestigation if you wish to remain safe. This methot would work for any non-covert ops ships, which would probably change the ganking wormhole meta to cloaky T3s, recons, and the SOE frigates and cruisers. Ships that don't have as much fire power then the defenders.

In short I like the proposed change, I like what new ganking meta this would introduce and I love the fact that defenders whom are on the ball would actually be rewarded for being on the ball, vs the current "laissez-faires" attitude that the current mechanics promote. The only thing I ask is that ship / POS / POS module names (as in the names the players give these items) be displayable on the combat probe scan, which would make the job of ignoring ships signatures a lot easier but still require a non-insignificant amount of work.
Seelen Jager
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2014-03-23 20:57:34 UTC
Just go back to having to probe all wormhole sigs. Having some arbitrary delay is just dumb.

corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#35 - 2014-03-23 21:03:10 UTC
My personal view is if you are actively looking for sigs (have probes out and hitting scan every 20 or 30 second). Then you should see new sigs appear. I don't like the idea of a delay on it appearing. I do however want them instantly appearing on the overview gone. You should have to work for your intel.
Klarion Sythis
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2014-03-23 21:04:23 UTC
Schwa Nuts wrote:
I completely disagree with the notion that you can farm wormholes nearly risk free. Twice in two months I've lost my C5 capital fleet to logoff traps, and I had friends evicted from theirs just a few weeks ago. The merits of the change I'm still vascillating on, but the statement that its nearly risk free to farm wormholes is, in my opinion, just not true.

There seems to be a lot of angry ranting from gankers who feel like they should be given as many advantages as possible in order to win a fight. If there is enough preparation on the side of those looking for the fight, they have, as it stands, a pretty clear advantage already.

To be honest, I think that has a lot to do with your corp tag. Not even necessarily because GRR Goons, but because you're clearly not there to live there, you're there to farm, with capitals, without backup. You're a prime target for seeding.
tgl3
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2014-03-23 21:05:36 UTC
Phone posting, excuse any typos.
I feel this goes too far the other way. Before odyssey, a "defending" Corp could watchfor new wormholes, but they'd need to have a dedicated prober (or probes launched, at least) and actively scan for new signatures. With odyssey, the need for probes or to scan was removed, meaning the little effort involved was essentially gone (though you still need to watch the result window) .This proposed change means the "defending" Corp now has 0 way to identify a new incoming wormhole. Not even with a tonne of effort, there's simply no way to find it. It's gone from being too easy to literally impossible. Unfortunately the only solution Ihave is to disable the discovery scanner in wspace outright, reverting it to pre odyssey (this is something I've wanted for a long time regardless)

My 2 cents.
Gunner GzR
Anomalous Existence
Initiative Mercenaries
#38 - 2014-03-23 21:10:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Gunner GzR
I would like to see it go back to pre-patch. This New mechanic is a ""dumbing Down" of W space. I feel that you should have to have probes out and actively scanning to see new sigs. If we Are Addressing making it too safe to run sleeper sights in wh space Then at the same time You might look at local in null sec and a delay on local

How many times have your scouts jumped to null sec and you see a carrier running sights and he warps directly off because you show up in local actually b4 you go through your session change? Maybe we should delay local as well in null sec since it is not a "safe" area and they should not be able to "safely" run sights and farm isk and it would reduce the number of bots running sights as they die off.

Change For the Sake of Change is bad Listen to you community CCP We are what make you Money. Remove Local From 0.0 and Low Space Please

Meytal
Doomheim
#39 - 2014-03-23 21:15:27 UTC
Those willing to put in effort should be rewarded. Right now, it's too easy for people to sit back and PvE in peace while watching for new sigs that appear the moment a potential hostile initiates warp on their side. Someone actively probing should see it immediately. That's the difference: active vs passive.

It's also too easy for the ganking entities to fly to the random ore sites because they no longer require scanning. I very much like not having to scan the Grav sites anymore, as it cuts down on time to categorize all the sigs in a system, but it throws a major advantage toward the prospective ganker.

Things are out of balance in both directions.

- Sigs should be delayed by 5 minutes from appearing in the scanner window, but visible immediately via probes
- Ore sites in W-space should be returned to signatures instead of anomalies

Let people in W-space be punished or rewarded based on the effort they put into the game.
It's W-space, not Nullsec. Things are different here.

Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#40 - 2014-03-23 21:21:04 UTC
Who the hell are Rura-Penthe and why have they declared a posting CTA on this thread?