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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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ShadowandLight
Trigger Happy Capsuleers
#41 - 2014-03-23 21:24:37 UTC  |  Edited by: ShadowandLight
I disagree with this idea entirely.

The hunter and the hunted should have equal opportunity at intel. As it sits right now, when people are engaged in PVE in sites they are often "locked" by either NPC scrams or by siege / triage in higher class holes.

They are already at a disadvantage, not to mention that the hostiles have the element of surprise and no one will jump an unsuspecting enemy without knowing they have overwhelming firepower and can entirely eliminate the opposing force with little to no risk.

In this same vein, lets not forget the issues with hostiles logging out entire fleets in an unsuspecting groups wormhole, unable to be detected and having the ability to login and gank the defenders without more then a moments notice. Imagine sieging an enemies castle in the middle ages, sneaking your forces up to the main gates every night in the cover of darkness and then magically waving your wand to hide them while you bring in more troops the next night.

This is also hugely unbalanced in the attackers favor with almost no counter-balance to the tactic (such as logged off ships at least presenting an un-scannable signature)

The defender in almost every scenario is easy prey to the even incompetent attacker, who only needs to asses the situation for a fleeting moment before engaging. Yes, the defender does have the ability to bring higher mass (and hopefully higher ability) ships to the battle, but we all know that the element of surprise completely negates that ability (and often times the defenders are podded out of the WH entirely during the engagement).

My opinion is the attacker and the defender need to be both balanced equally in their ability to gather intel, not make the situation more one sided then it already is.
Darkblad
Doomheim
#42 - 2014-03-23 21:24:54 UTC
Removing them from the overlay but, like COSMOS sites, let them appear when probing - just like before Odyssey - should be OK.

NPEISDRIP

AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#43 - 2014-03-23 21:25:59 UTC
Or you could just rip out the discovery overlay, which is a POS.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org

Axloth Okiah
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2014-03-23 21:28:48 UTC
This change would also allow safely rolling new statics you dont like. Imagine some "farmers" roll into some "pvpers". Currently, the "pvpers" have chance to scan the hole and ambush those "farmers" when they try to roll this unwanted static. Proposed change would give them perfectly safe window to crash without any possible interference. So this cuts both ways and one of them is making certain things safer, not riskier.
AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#45 - 2014-03-23 21:29:37 UTC
ShadowandLight wrote:
I disagree with this idea entirely.

The hunter and the hunted should have equal opportunity at intel. As it sits right now, when people are engaged in PVE in sites they are often "locked" by either NPC scrams or by siege / triage in higher class holes.

They are already at a disadvantage, not to mention that the hostiles have the element of surprise and no one will jump an unsuspecting enemy without knowing they have overwhelming firepower and can entirely eliminate the opposing force with little to no risk.

In this same vein, lets not forget the issues with hostiles logging out entire fleets in an unsuspecting groups wormhole, unable to be detected and having the ability to login and gank the defenders without more then a moments notice. Imagine sieging an enemies castle in the middle ages, sneaking your forces up to the main gates every night in the cover of darkness and then magically waving your wand to hide them while you bring in more troops the next night.

This is also hugely unbalanced in the attackers favor with almost no counter-balance to the tactic (such as logged off ships at least presenting an un-scannable signature)

The defender in almost every scenario is easy prey to the even incompetent attacker, who only needs to asses the situation for a fleeting moment before engaging. Yes, the defender does have the ability to bring higher mass (and hopefully higher ability) ships to the battle, but we all know that the element of surprise completely negates that ability (and often times the defenders are podded out of the WH entirely during the engagement).

My opinion is the attacker and the defender need to be both balanced equally in their ability to gather intel, not make the situation more one sided then it already is.



If you wanted to farm safely maybe you should go check out some of that space you're renting out in your signature.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org

Ssieth
The Lunatic Collective
#46 - 2014-03-23 21:31:12 UTC
Sounds like a dreadful idea.

Noone gets any less safe as all you have to do is spam probes to detect a new K162. So rather than adding excitement and dynamism to the game (as most folks want) it adds a tedious new role of probe-spammer to the list of things w-space corps need to maintain,

Nice thought. But it won't work in practice.

W-Spacer.  Bittervet. 75% PvP, 25% assorted other stuff.

Admiral Douros
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#47 - 2014-03-23 21:32:40 UTC
As a wormhole dweller who has lost 3 capital fleets to ganks within the last 6 months, I completely disagree with this change. It's already dangerous enough without delaying K162 visibility. We've been able to avoid ganks a couple times by noticing a new sig pop up, but we've also been caught during sites by well-organized fleets who open the K162 and immediately jump through and throw out combat probes.

I'm not sure why you want to make wspace more dangerous than it already is. The amount of isk that is invested in a capital escalation fleet is higher than any other PVE activity in the game. People can move in while you're asleep and setup the perfect logoff trap. People can come in through a K162 and close it with dreads before it even shows up on your sig list.

If you are trying to significantly lower the number of people who live in wormholes, this is the way to do it. You're trying to create more PVP content, which I admire, but in my opinion this will have the opposite effect. Smaller corps like mine are already at a huge disadvantage and are getting tired of being ganked. A huge change like this is going to be the last straw that forces me to close up shop and leave wspace forever.
mynnna
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2014-03-23 21:34:00 UTC
Nah I don't think so. As James noted it really leaves no choice of any sort, no warning.

Instead, leave the overlay as is, but remove the ability to loot and salvage sleeper wrecks. In its place create a new structure that does it for you but has a relatively lengthy access time, say five minutes or so, long enough that if someone does come through that newly spawned hole, they'll find ya. Then you do have the choice to flee, but doing so means losing what you've made farming.

In essence I'm proposing a wormhole version of the ESS, except because I always hear wormholers telling me how much more hardcore than anyone else they are, it's mandatory, keeps 100% of earnings in it, and doesn't actually confer any additional bonus.


Kidding. Or am I? Twisted


Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal

Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#49 - 2014-03-23 21:35:07 UTC
Im sorry probe spam takes a toon with skills a slot on a ship probes in space and clicking a button over and over again. Discovery scanner requires nothing. One is a problem one is the way things have always been im missing why the hell u would nerf probes?? who the hell told u probe spam was a problem???? as much as a problem as d-scan spam if ur trying to kill someone yeah. So why don't we just nerf the fuckin d-scan too so ships don't show up for 2 mins. This is a terrible idea please just fix the discovery scanner and leave probes the hell alone. You guys broke this **** probe spam was never considered a problem by anyone.....fix what u broke and leave probes alone ffs. Just leave WH Alone fix the discover scan and leave us alone there are literally 1000s of broken things in the game WH isn't one of them just go make new space and leave us alone after u fix discovery scan please.
Slumber
Cellular Vigour
#50 - 2014-03-23 21:35:21 UTC
If this is going to be implemented then it should be the same the other way also and have a delayed appearance in local when exiting a wormhole to nullsec.

I believe it will enhance the options for seeding capitals as stated earlier in the thread.

AHARM Recruiter

Admiral Douros
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#51 - 2014-03-23 21:35:32 UTC
Angsty Teenager wrote:
Yes 100% this would be great fozzie. Many people seem to think that it wouldn't be fair to people running sites or whatever in wormholes, but in reality running sites right now is pretty much a zero risk affair, and even prior to sigs being shown immediately on the probe scanner, with just a core scanner probe at 64 AU you could achieve the same thing. Granted you are still subject to logoff traps, but it's pretty much risk free pve.


Says the guy who kills capital escalation fleets for a living. You killed my corp's escalation fleet twice and just killed my friend's fleet the other day. This is hardly "risk-free PVE". Granted, a lot of days are quiet and uneventful PVP-wise, but they're made up for by days when you get dunked by either a logoff trap or a big fleet jumping through a fresh K162.
Sylvanium Orlenard
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2014-03-23 21:36:05 UTC
Ssieth wrote:
Sounds like a dreadful idea.

Noone gets any less safe as all you have to do is spam probes to detect a new K162. So rather than adding excitement and dynamism to the game (as most folks want) it adds a tedious new role of probe-spammer to the list of things w-space corps need to maintain,

Nice thought. But it won't work in practice.



You mean it returns it to like it was per-odyssey, which was not horrible . . .
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#53 - 2014-03-23 21:36:18 UTC
Yes remove instant sig overlay or delay it or whatever you want.

No do not remove probable changes in sigs.

You broke it CCP (basically blanket application K space rules to W space) so please don't make it sound like it was an iteration that ever considered the chosen few in WH's.

It was working just fine. The lazy got caught and the prudent (No two-step not risk-aversed or chicken ***** or however you want to spin the titles from on high, the PRUDENT!) had a chance of getting away. There was already the risk that the guy with the probes hit cycle just before the new K appeared or went to the bathroom but making it a delayed mechanic is just ....... contrived and that's for K space.

Just my opinion, I could be wrong.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Arkon Olacar
black.listed
#54 - 2014-03-23 21:37:49 UTC
Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.
Mal Nina
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#55 - 2014-03-23 21:37:52 UTC
I want to say the problem is the dumbing down of the game. The latest introduction of open my scanner and oh look there are all the sigs killed exploration and reduced the gank opportunity.

This proposal by CCP is really saying we made a mistake. Seems the right answer is to take a step back, get rid of the instant overview of sigs and make people have a probe out to actively scan the system while they run sites. Make those ore sites have to be scanned down. GIve good scanning skills and scouting a reward. If we have to spam the probes so be it. that is being proative and trying to mitagate the risk. Mitagating risk should be allowed.

This proposal seems to be too far the other direction. It makes it so large WH entities are the only way to go so you can simply outblob others. As for no risk... tell that to the moros driver that gave us a moros this week. It was really kind of him, it would seem that they were not being proactive at all.



AutumnWind1983
Reboot Required
#56 - 2014-03-23 21:38:11 UTC
mynnna wrote:
Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.


If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey.

James Arget for CSM 8! http://csm.fcftw.org

Deeone
Deadspace Zombie Factory
#57 - 2014-03-23 21:41:58 UTC
AutumnWind1983 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.


If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey.

live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol
Admiral Douros
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#58 - 2014-03-23 21:42:17 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.


This is a great compromise and removes a very annoying mechanic.
Seelen Jager
Perkone
Caldari State
#59 - 2014-03-23 21:44:58 UTC
Deeone wrote:
AutumnWind1983 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.


If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey.

live in a wh much? tackle in wh is cloaky t3s u will have no warning unless u get lucky and the probe hits him b4 he cloaks.....dscan is useless in a wh vs ppl that know what they are doing probes and hole control is the only way to mitigate risk. These actions require things to be done by the player that makes it balanced. when u make it so u cant see an incoming static for minutes you are pretty much ensuring the death of the defenders. esp the poor miners lol


If you want to tackle my farming fleet in a cloaky t3 go ahead, I'd love to watch it melt under 90% webs and dread guns.
mynnna
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#60 - 2014-03-23 21:46:02 UTC
AutumnWind1983 wrote:
mynnna wrote:
Realistically, while I'm not actually a wormhole resident myself, I can't help but wonder how enjoyable it will be to get wrecked simply because you had zero indication attackers were incoming. I'm thinking, even to people who do enjoy a good fight and aren't just farming away to their heart's content, that the answer would be "not very". And that just re-emphasizes how "you can't get this intel no matter what you do" is a problem.


If you were spamming dscan while site running, which you should be, you'd have just as much warning as you did pre-odyssey.


Am I mistaken in my belief that by spamming scan on your probes you could see when new signatures appeared which in turn served as extra warning?

Regardless of whether I am or not, let's not forget that neither "spamming dscan" nor "spamming probe scan" are exactly what you'd call "fun and engaging" gameplay and having some other more interesting means of remaining vigilant would be fantastic.

Member of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal