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What does the Phantasm even do?

First post
Author
Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#41 - 2013-02-15 03:07:18 UTC
Nikea Tiber wrote:
You could keep the weak cap and give it a range bonus to nos, that way your rapidly draining capacitor would ensure the function of your nos.
I'd like to see the phantasm actually be anything other than a pile of meh. I'm torn whether or not the succubus should get buffed; it has to be the ugliest ship in space.


that's what corpum a-type medium nos is for P

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Muad 'dib
The Nine Nine
#42 - 2013-02-15 04:41:34 UTC
something has to come in last

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#43 - 2013-02-15 06:14:54 UTC
The Omen has a web and the Phantasm has a Web + Cap Booster. Considering the **** capacitor on both the Omen and Phantasm, I think the Phantasm wins. Now, if you wanted to make the argument for a MWD/Disruptor/Small Cap Booster I'd be ok, but then you'd lack a web.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#44 - 2013-02-15 06:25:07 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
The Omen has a web and the Phantasm has a Web + Cap Booster. Considering the **** capacitor on both the Omen and Phantasm, I think the Phantasm wins. Now, if you wanted to make the argument for a MWD/Disruptor/Small Cap Booster I'd be ok, but then you'd lack a web.

/shrug

-Liang


I think, once again, that the Omen is more of a kitey ship, while the Phantasm, with a larger tank naturally, is able to brawl more effectively. The web on the Omen provides a bit more should a frigate get close, but other than that serves little in the way of a purpose.

Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

Muad 'dib
The Nine Nine
#45 - 2013-02-15 12:40:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Muad 'dib
it could be alot better...

The problems is 3 lows and fitting.

double the damage bonus, drop one gun (2: 6 effective), minus a high for an extra mid - and keep fitting the same: then maybe it would keep its unique factor while being competitive in damage, cap use and fitting flexibility.

EDIT: i meant extra low not mid, 4 lows gives heatsink(s) plus nanos, dcu, tracking - the main flexibility for modifying the ships survivability and role focus.

Cosmic signature detected. . . . http://i.imgur.com/Z7NfIS6.jpg I got 99 likes, and this post aint one.

To mare
Advanced Technology
#46 - 2013-02-16 07:32:45 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.

fun, this is pretty much the same thing that happened to rifterBig smile
Goldensaver
Something Went Wrong
#47 - 2013-02-16 07:42:21 UTC
To mare wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.

fun, this is pretty much the same thing that happened to rifterBig smile

Except the Phantasm has been this way much longer...
Diesel47
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#48 - 2013-02-16 08:21:38 UTC
Muad 'dib wrote:
it could be alot better...

The problems is 3 lows and fitting.

double the damage bonus, drop one gun (2: 6 effective), minus a high for an extra mid - and keep fitting the same: then maybe it would keep its unique factor while being competitive in damage, cap use and fitting flexibility.


Need more help than that imo..
Indira Himesama
Andorianisches Bergbaukonsortium
#49 - 2013-02-16 10:57:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Indira Himesama
I looked for many ships that involve Armarr, are better than a Omen or Harbinger, are around cruiser/battlecruiser size and somehow look... well something between, nice, cool and special. A phantasm looked pretty cool for a aim (when I have enough skill spoints in Amarr and armor tanking, so I can start a second race and strengthen the shild tank skills), so I started reading this thread and I must say, I am totally discouraged now for that aim. It seems for a person having a liking for direct damage stuff like lazors (therefore my drone skills also suck) there is not much besides some heavy assault ships, the strategic cruisers or the default faction ships just anyone uses.

Well that might have been a little off topic, but actually it's not. Since that was intended to show that the phantasm would be kind of the only option for that niche, meaning someone looking for a "beaming" ship that is more than just a tech 1 battlecruiser fitted and skilled to the maximum utility. So I really wonder if there are some plans for balancing the phantasm. From reading it seems the critism comes usually down to slots being used to compensate the small capacitor. I am not a super ship expert, but wouldn't simply raising the cap a little so much that you get a free rig or medium slot actually be already equal to just adding such kind of a slot? Though I could also think of having some roll bonus for lower cap usage on some kind of default modul you will be wanting to fit like a shild booster, AB or MWD. Or maybe just give a bonus for the cap recharged with a cap recharged module? I believe others might be able to think of even cooler boni that would allow some new unique fittings. Basicly I wanted to say that I also wouldn't want to see that unique ship to be just the same as any other ship of it's class that you can alreay get, some even for much less ISK and skill points as pointed out in some comments earlier.

De Kus

Love hurts, love strengthens...

Verity Sovereign
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2013-02-16 11:53:47 UTC
My suggestion:
Cap recharge time * 0.85
Cap Capacity* 1.15 (combined effect, 35% higher cap/sec recharge
Shield recharge time *0.85
Speed + 25m/s

Drone capacity and bandwidth+10
PG + 10%



Alternately... for the *entire* sansha lineup:
Change the 100% laser bonus to 150% (so that lasers do 2.5 damage)
Then remove the 5% per level of caldari ship damage bonus (so that damage is unchanged at lvl 5)
In its place, add a 5% shield resist bonus per level of caldari ship (frigate/cruiser/battleship)


It never made sense to me why the caldari ship skill increased laser damage... you'd think that would come from the amarr ship skill

In the end, you end up with 3 effective bonuses, like all the other pirate ships.
Role bonus for increased damage (instead of simply turning 4 turrets into 8, the most common number of turrets for turret BSs)
Amarr skill for laser tracking
Caldari skill for better shields.

They'd then be some pretty good brawlers
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#51 - 2013-02-18 06:04:59 UTC
Give it a drone bonus or simply a larger drone bay?
CCP Ytterbium
C C P
C C P Alliance
#52 - 2013-02-18 12:20:34 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Ytterbium
Merin Ryskin wrote:
The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.


Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)Oops

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.


  • Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.

  • Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.

  • Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.

  • Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.

  • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


  • So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.
Jonas Sukarala
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2013-02-18 12:54:13 UTC
im curious what you think about the vigilant considering the thorax buff/change of bonuses.
Also the cynabal being better than the vaga issue?
On the gila/gursitas besides drones needing a big buff its bonuses needs looking at it can't be both bonused for brawling (tank) and for long range combat ......much as i feel about the drake atm..... they clash a bit with caldari missile velocity...

And the Ashimmu it really does suffer having the same price range as the curse considering its essentially a brawler ranged ship with no tank .. suicide ship... and costly at that.

'Tech3 ships need to be put down, like a rabid dog drooling everywhere in the house, they are out of line' CCP Ytterbium Nerf missile range into place where is the TD missile change?  ..projectiles should use capacitor. ABC's should be T2 HABC and nerf web strength its still too high

Hannott Thanos
Notorious Legion
#54 - 2013-02-18 12:57:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Hannott Thanos
It would be interesting with a ship specific bonus such as
"Energy Vampires will drain capacitor regardless of local and target capacitor percentage"

I think that would fit perfectly for the Ashimmu.

while (CurrentSelectedTarget.Status == ShipStatus.Alive) {

     _myShip.FireAllGuns(CurrentSelectedTarget);

}

Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#55 - 2013-02-18 14:01:03 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

Cant say much for Cynabal, but Machariel - you can use the same trick you've done to Hurricane: reduce PG and capacitor.
TrouserDeagle
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#56 - 2013-02-18 15:11:47 UTC  |  Edited by: TrouserDeagle
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.


Nightmare sucks, except that it has enough powergrid for tachyons. On all these ships, the utility highslots are completely wasted on beam setups. Move them to mids and lows. Also these ships suck at tanking and need more cap than nearly any other ship (lasers + shield tanking). It sucks that cap booster is mandatory, it shouldn't be - for any ship.

Also, phantasm used to be much prettier. Go find the old skin, the current one is real dull by comparison.

CCP Ytterbium wrote:

Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


Too much agility, too many effective turrets. They shouldn't be so good at straight up combat as well as running away and dictating range. Reduce damage bonuses or dronebays. What's up with that scan res as well?
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
Siberian Squads
#57 - 2013-02-18 15:36:30 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:

  • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.
  • Don't you think that Tracking Enhancer fix will remedy current flaws in terms of damage projection?

    Also, what exactly is very good about Nightmare? It's a slowass ship with DPS slightly above average and mediocre in all other fields.

    "Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.

    goldiiee
    Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
    #58 - 2013-02-18 15:38:05 UTC
    RE, Machariel:

    As a dual training is required for this ship it takes twice as long to perfect the bonuses for these ships. I dont think they are in need of a nerf so much as split the bonuses to each faction, IE, set turret bonuses for Minmitar, and Tank or capacitor bonuses for Gallente (or Vice Versa). In order to fly the ships effectively you would need both factions trained to 5 (Similar to the Scimitar/Basi).

    With an investment of 100 days for spaceship command alone, an additional 200 days to get the guns right, 120 days for the drones, then add the core tank and core capacitor skills for another 235 days. It takes almost 2 years of focused training to fly this ship to it's full potential.

    Of course there are always a few people that fly ships they have no buisness in, with skills always trained to the minimum then whine about subpar performance.

    Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

    Sidus Isaacs
    Center for Advanced Studies
    Gallente Federation
    #59 - 2013-02-18 15:50:05 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Merin Ryskin wrote:
    The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.


    Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)Oops

    Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.


    • Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.

    • Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.

    • Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.

    • Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.

    • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


    • So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.


    As a guy that loves phantams, and was a bit sad to see it got a bit of a nerf when cynabal got a boost (if I remember correctly it lost some hp), in my opinion it need more mobility. The shield tank lets it be faster than the armor variants, and it could be a kiter. However now the cynabal, vaga and many others outshine it completely while having room for lots of utility. A bit of ehp boost would also be nice, but if given enough mobility, might not be needed. A little bit of grid would not hurt either, just so you can squeeze in a cap booster or a neut in addition to the largest lasers that gives you the magic 20km+ range.

    Al inn all: better mobiliy, in form of more base speed and maybe agility. A tad more grid.
    Liang Nuren
    No Salvation
    Top Belt for Fun
    #60 - 2013-02-18 16:17:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
    First, I think it needs to be said that medium pulse is not long range enough when compared to blasters and (especially) autocannons. A large part of the problem is that I naturally expect pulse lasers to be able to attack throughout a typical engagement range. FMP was conceived with a "natural" range of 20km and Heavy Pulse with a "natural" range of about 24km. Since that time, we've seen T2 points and overheat and the proliferation of skirmish links.

    In a fairly typical small gang we can see engagement ranges stretch out to somewhere between 30km (overheated T2 point) and 45km (overheated T2 point, loki links). This makes "kiting" in a laser ship a dubious affair IMO. More importantly, it also removes the ability for lasers on the more painfully slow hulls to fight off kiting ships. If we were just talking about the longer ranged projectile ships like the Vagabond or optimal bonused ships like the Zealot I don't think this would matter as much as it does. However, we're facing the situation where blaster ships trivially outrange T2 point range - and medium pulse range.

    That is to say that conceptually I'd say lasers should both be the best kiting weapon (when mounted on an appropriate hull) and the best anti kiting weapon (when not). They should have fairly high DPS (which they do), be fairly weak up close (which they are), and restricted in damage type (which they are).

    All of that said, I think the ship could be basically ok with 4 turrets (5 highs) and the equivalent of a LCB II stuffed into its pathetic capacitor. You might also want to nudge up the speed and agility on the ship because you only have 3 lows to stuff the requisite 2 HS, 2 TE, 2 Nano, DC into.

    An optimal bonus would also help emphasize the kiting role over a brawling role - because let's just be honest: a brawling laser ship with like 10 capacitor in a land where every ship in the game has a "utility/anti-frig neut" fit is just ******* stupid.

    I'll post some thoughts on the Ashimmu shortly (read: perhaps today), but I've got to head to work soon. I will leave this as something to chew on:
    - Neuts + Lasers is simply lolwutcapacitor, even before we stop to consider the laughable capacitor it has. Again, LCB II or two builtin would be a good idea (yes, without adjusting the recharge rate).
    - The Ashimmu doesn't have the resist profile or EHP that's necessary to be useful as a raw neut ship. The Bhaalgorn has EHP and the Legion has EHP + Resists + Same Neut Power.
    - The DPS is utterly anemic, even when compared to the recons.
    - This leaves the web bonus as the only viable bonus on the ship.

    My suggestion:
    - Turn the role bonus into a resist bonus
    - Move a high to a mid (MWD, Cap Booster, Disruptor, 2x Web)
    - 5 unbonused turret slots (let them focus on that web bonus if they want, or let them sacrifice DPS for neuting power)
    - Slightly increase the neut bonus to account for moved high (otherwise it's still inferior to the Legion)
    - Build in a LCB or two
    - Fill out the drone bay with 25 bw/50 bay

    Other options include:
    - Almost Cap free neuts (yes, really)
    - Role fitting bonus for heavy neuts (increase neut range)
    - Refocusing the ship away from lasers wholesale

    Anyway, gotta run. o/

    -Liang

    Ed: Yes, I am aware how much of the projection problem is related to TEs and BS sized weapons.

    I'm an idiot, don't mind me.