These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

What does the Phantasm even do?

First post
Author
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#61 - 2013-02-18 16:18:43 UTC
If projection was supposed to be a weakness of the Angel lineup why did you give them a falloff bonus? That's like saying projection's supposed to be a weakness of the zealot.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#62 - 2013-02-18 16:29:41 UTC
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
If projection was supposed to be a weakness of the Angel lineup why did you give them a falloff bonus? That's like saying projection's supposed to be a weakness of the zealot.


And a huge drone bay. Lol
Inkarr Hashur
Skyline Federation
#63 - 2013-02-18 16:36:59 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Inkarr Hashur wrote:
If projection was supposed to be a weakness of the Angel lineup why did you give them a falloff bonus? That's like saying projection's supposed to be a weakness of the zealot.


And a huge drone bay. Lol


Yeah. So Yitter Bitter, I'd say figure out what the actual weakness is or should be. Because projection isn't it, as the Machariel projects about 70% to 80% as well as the Nightmare does.
Jenn aSide
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#64 - 2013-02-18 17:20:19 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.


Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness)Oops

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.


  • Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.

  • Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.

  • Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.

  • Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.

  • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


  • So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.


Blasphemy. Don't make me swim to icleand, i'll do it. Ok I won't but don't you touch my mach, it's already worse at pve in the north (Serp, Guistas space) than the Vindicator.
Danny John-Peter
The Congregation
420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
#65 - 2013-02-18 19:20:12 UTC
Phantasm with an optimal bonus would be pretty sweet, all that kitey goodness.
Anya Klibor
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#66 - 2013-02-18 19:53:17 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:
The Phantasm used to be awesome. It had HAC-level firepower with a nice buffer tank and very reasonable cost, and effectively replaced the Zealot. The problem was that it was the first faction cruiser to be updated, so when CCP released the faction ship boost patch they assumed the Phantasm was already good enough since it had been updated more recently than the others. Unfortunately they were wrong, and the Phantasm is now a terrible ship since everything else around it has been made so much better.


Ah yes, this dates back to 2009, and you're looking at the one responsible for that (along with the Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel uberness) Oops

Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.


  • Blood Raiders: Bhaalgorn is nice, Ashimmu and Cruor need some iteration. Need to find ways to make them useful at what they do without them competing too much with the Amarr Recon Ships.

With their laser bonus, it allows them to not only neut substantial amounts, but also put out solid DPS, fit a decent tank and web substantially. You pretty much mixed the Succubus and Daredevil when you created the Cruor. I think what makes them better than the Amarr Recons is that fact: they have damage, tank, and flexibility with regards to how they fly.

Quote:
  • Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.

  • How many Nightmares do you see in high sec wars compared to Vindicators, Machariels, and Bhaalgorns? The only ship flown less is the Rattlesnake, and that's flown primarilly as a PvE ship because everyone knows a Rattlesnake is bait, pure and simple. Hell, Scorpion Navy Issues are flown more.

    Quote:
  • Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.

  • I think this is where I disagree in part. I absolutely love the Worm as a frigate-based drone platform. Would I like to see a bit more damage? Absolutely, but being able to field two full squadrons of light drones is awesome. It makes it a MErlin-hull Ishkur in part!

    Quote:
  • Serpentis: we are quite pleased with all the ships in this line.

  • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


  • So, when would this be coming out? Not for a while, we have a lot of more urgent rebalancing to go through, mainly with Tech1 and 2 hulls, but this definately is on our to-do list.


    I'm putting these together.

    1.) The Serpentis line gained a substantial boost when the Hybrid balance came out. The Vindicator was already seeing play for a blaster boat, boat then the hybrid changes came and the Daredevil and Vigilant became far more common. In fact, in many respects the Vigilant surpasses the Deimos. That web bonus is nothing to scoff at! And the Daredevil is a fast ship that can keep range far better than really any other frigate in the game, if it gets on you (I will argue only the Keres and Hyena do it better because of their bonuses).

    2.) I agree on the Angel Cartel lineup. It's pretty simple how to beat them, but all things considered it is very difficult to do that when many of the dedicated pilots run High Grade Snakes and a Loki boosting them. The velocity, agility, and projection puts many other ships to shame, including the Vagabond. I think a reduction in agility is necessary to bring them in-line with other ships of their classes, or at least a reduction in maximum velocity by 10%. I won't say reduce the falloff bonuses because they're supposed to be flown kitey.

    Leadership is something you learn. Maybe one day, you'll learn that.

    Liang Nuren
    No Salvation
    Top Belt for Fun
    #67 - 2013-02-18 20:24:47 UTC
    Anya Klibor wrote:

    With their laser bonus, it allows them to not only neut substantial amounts, but also put out solid DPS, fit a decent tank and web substantially. You pretty much mixed the Succubus and Daredevil when you created the Cruor. I think what makes them better than the Amarr Recons is that fact: they have damage, tank, and flexibility with regards to how they fly.


    I'm sorry, did you just claim that the Ashimmu and Cruor are better than the Amarr Recons? And that they have "damage"?

    I.... what?

    -Liang

    I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

    Callic Veratar
    #68 - 2013-02-18 20:47:17 UTC
    Could the Blood Raider ships be rebuilt to focus on Nos use rather than Neut use? Possibly a role bonus that makes the nos function like neuts (ie drain to 0 cap and 5x transfer amount).

    This could end up with an interesting fleet composition involving Ashimmu and Logis to make large vamp chains, but shouldn't be excessively powerful as the function would only exist on the BR ships.
    Pinky Denmark
    The Cursed Navy
    #69 - 2013-02-19 00:04:17 UTC
    The firepower on the Phantasm is nice - especially with the tracking bonus. The problem as I see it comes from having too much mass and being too slow while at the same time very few worthwhile things can be fit in the 2 utility slots. Those 2 utility slots are often just empty and wasted making the entire ship subpar.

    The Blood Raider frigate and cruiser ships just seems to lack armor hitpoints and capacitor amount to actually use cap neutralizers. I do like the suggestion to make it a nosferatu ship though and a web bonus like the bhaal would certainly help keep targets inside the neut range but not sure it's needed with the lower mass on plates coming soon™

    About those Cynabals and Machariels the Tracking enhancers and speed are to blaim. The acceleration and agility on those are nice, but if you cut down the top speed they would still be able to outmaneuver other ships while not being able to outrun them in a straight line when the enemy would reach their top speed.

    Pinky
    Kristoffon vonDrake
    Forceful Resource Acquisition Inc
    #70 - 2013-02-19 13:22:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Kristoffon vonDrake
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

  • Oh no don't you dare touch the Cyna and the Mach.

    The Mach is the only ship battlecruiser or bigger a person can go soloing inside hostile territory and have a fighting chance to get out of blobs. DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH IT.

    The Cynabal is still a 260M cruiser. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD. KEEP YOUR DIRTY HANDS OFF IT. IT HAS CRAP DPS ALREADY WHEN KITING. If the other ships suck in comparison it's their problem.
    Storm Novah
    Yada Industries
    #71 - 2013-02-19 13:55:34 UTC
    Kristoffon vonDrake wrote:
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

  • Oh no don't you dare touch the Cyna and the Mach.

    The Mach is the only ship battlecruiser or bigger a person can go soloing inside hostile territory and have a fighting chance to get out of blobs. DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH IT.

    The Cynabal is still a 260M cruiser. IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE GOOD. KEEP YOUR DIRTY HANDS OFF IT. IT HAS CRAP DPS ALREADY WHEN KITING. If the other ships suck in comparison it's their problem.

    And the Mach nerf QQ begins... seriously tho they both need nerfs. The fact that its flown to the exclusion of 90% of other pirate battleships means that its way OP. I have been seriously looking forward to this. And as for comment about the "other ships" that "suck in comparison" being "their problem" waaaaaaaay wrong... its CCP's problem and they are in the process of remedying that. Which thrills me to the core!

    As for the line of Sansha ships... While I agree the NM is decent it needs something more... giving it a bit more speed and a bit more cap would go a LONG way to making it a more viable option. Also the Phantasm... its slot layout isnt that bad and could easily benefit from the same buffs i mentioned the NM needing.
    Darius Brinn
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #72 - 2013-02-19 14:02:25 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Cynabal and Machariel...

    Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.


    The "don't matter as much as they should" part is quite an understatement.

    Both ships work with Artilleries AND Autocannons, and are able to effortlessly fit a full rack of the BIGGEST ones in each category.

    Both have a 50% built-in falloff bonus with Gallente Cruiser/Battleship V.

    It's actually the other way around: their damage projection is nothing short of AMAZING. Something to consider while we reveal in their unsurpassed speed, agility and scan resolution, best of their classes easily.

    It's due time Cynabal and Machariel meet the Nerfhammer.

    kyrieee
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #73 - 2013-02-19 14:08:09 UTC
    Storm Novah wrote:
    And the Mach nerf QQ begins... seriously tho they both need nerfs. The fact that its flown to the exclusion of 90% of other pirate battleships means that its way OP.


    That's laughable, vindicators and bhaalgorns see a ton of use in lowsec / wh fleet combat, much moreso than machs.
    Reppyk
    The Black Shell
    #74 - 2013-02-19 14:21:02 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
    Considering I was the one breaking this ship in the first place, the least I can do is to post here what we think of pirate ships at the moment.
    My pov.

    Bhaal : perfectly fine.
    Ashimmu : low EHP, low speed, low agility, average dps, bad capacitor, lolwut drone bay, not-that-good pwg, is only useful when brawling within 8km-12km (which is not the range of medium pulse/beam lasers). Buff a bit everything, give it another lowslot.
    Cruor : like the ashimmu but even worst. On everything.

    Nightmare : it's a good T1 battleship. Nothing else. To shine a bit, it needs a -15% large energy turret bonus instead of the 10% and more PWG. Oh, and buffer-fit shield battleships suck (the only exception being the rokh with a tier3 buffer and the shield bonus, and somewhat the suicide herocat where the tank doesnt matter) because there is no XLSE.
    Phantasm : the spikey crap. Isn't that the slowest cruiser in the game ? And had some serious capacitor problems. And "tracking lazers+shield" is not really a role when you consider the other pirate lineups.
    Succubus : even worst than a T1 fregate (yes, I'm looking at you, dreadful tormentor).

    Rattlesnake : gimmick ship. Just good for AFK-farmers. Bad because a bonus is wasted (large launchers are bad, only 4 slots on it, and that speed missile bonus is already available on standard caldari ships). Remove the missile speed bonus, give it a DPS bonus (rof or dmg) and a 5th launcher slot.
    Gila : 4th missile slot and more CPU please, otherwise it's a good one.
    Worm : it's pretty. Everything else is bad (sup tristan'). It's lacking some pwg, CPU, missile slots, good bonus, and love.

    Vindicator : fine.
    Vigilant : more EHP please.
    Daredevil : fine.

    Machariel : -1 highslot, lower the speed and the agility. Problem solved.
    Cynabal : lower the agility and a bit of EHP. Oh, and the scan res. And the drone bay.
    Dramiel : The only one I don't fly, 'can't speak for it.

    And where are the EOM (not sure of the name) ? The amarr ships with hybrid weapons.
    There is no pirate ships with missiles as a main weapon. Mordus rokhs with 7/8 torp launchers, anyone ?

    I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

    Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

    goldiiee
    Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
    #75 - 2013-02-19 14:49:17 UTC
    Reppyk wrote:
    [quote=CCP Ytterbium]

    Machariel : -1 highslot, lower the speed and the agility. Problem solved.


    So you want to turn it into a maelstrom?

    Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.

    Charadrass
    Angry Germans
    #76 - 2013-02-19 15:30:02 UTC
    Quote:
    Machariel : -1 highslot, lower the speed and the agility. Problem solved.


    Do that and no one will ever fly it again :)
    Inkarr Hashur
    Skyline Federation
    #77 - 2013-02-19 16:33:18 UTC
    Charadrass wrote:
    Quote:
    Machariel : -1 highslot, lower the speed and the agility. Problem solved.


    Do that and no one will ever fly it again :)


    Do that and Charadrass will make an incorrect statement.
    Danny John-Peter
    The Congregation
    420 MLG TWINTURBO 3000 EMPIRE ALLIANCE RELOADED
    #78 - 2013-02-19 18:02:18 UTC
    goldiiee wrote:
    Reppyk wrote:
    [quote=CCP Ytterbium]

    Machariel : -1 highslot, lower the speed and the agility. Problem solved.


    So you want to turn it into a maelstrom?


    Except for the role, bonuses, slot layout and, well, everything.
    Verity Sovereign
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #79 - 2013-02-19 18:23:02 UTC
    CCP Ytterbium wrote:
  • Sansha's Nation: Nightmare is very good, Phantasm and Succubus also need some love. Probably going to need to have a look at their mobility and EHP. Open to ideas however, so this thread will be watched.
  • The nightmare is not very good - its slow and easily capped out with no selectable damage - when do you ever see these in competitive PvP?
    It can blitz the easy lvl4s... but the harder missions/PvE content - well its either got the wrong damage type, or the incoming damage is what is shield tank is weakest against, and it can't run a booster and its guns at the same time (sure, there is the Ancillary booster, but that isn't good for PvE, and the ship itself is a poor choice for PvP) - unlike some other shield ships, it can't passive shield tank worth a damn.
    Its main use is in incursions, where beyond vanguards, it is actually a bit of a pain in the arsch because of its cap issues (especially on TPPHs, its slow speed requires MWDing to the gates for reasonable completion times, and then theres the tower bash that hurts the cap with continuous firing of crystals with full cap draw) - and its only going to get worse when you remove the passive resist bonus to inactive hardeners... when its capped out, it will die, fast.
    Its capacitor needs to be increased to equal the Bhaal and the Apoc, and I'd say put its recharge time to be equal ot the Rattlesnake.

    I'll reiterate my suggestion for all Sansha ships, beyond buffing their stats a bit (like speed or cap/shield stats)
    Increase the "role bonus" for large energy turrets, then for Caldari BS, add a shield resist bonus

    Quote:
  • Guristas: Rattlesnake and Gila we are happy with, not so much with the Worm.
  • Note really... the price of the Rattler(which you don't set) is a measure of demand - clearly there isn't as much demand for the ship, a normal Domi easily out DPSs it.
    You really need to rethink the high slot/launcher slot layout, and its missile bonus. Torps still aren't really usable on it, and the range bonus is useless for Cruise missiles
    Its all tank, no gank... its PvE utility has gone down recently with the new drone aggro mechanics

    Quote:
  • Angel Cartel: while the Dramiel has been brought back into line, the Cynabal and Machariel need a nerf. Not necessarily a big one mind you, but at the moment they are just too much versatile with their flexible slot layouts, extended drone bays coupled with amazing speed and good damage. Their theoretical weaknesses (lack of EHP, poor damage projection) don't matter as much in the field as they should.

  • How can you say poor damage projection? You gave them 50% falloff bonuses... and falloff on projectiles is already out of whack because TEs benefit projectiles much more than other weapon systems, and fitting the high damage ammo on projectiles does very little to their effective range, unlike other weapon systems (except maybe blasters)

    If projectile ammo came with falloff and optimal penalties... then they might have OK damage projection... right now, their damage projection is excellent.
    At least you acknowledge their other "flaws" (in this case, design flaws, ie, the ship is too good)
    goldiiee
    Bureau of Astronomical Anomalies
    #80 - 2013-02-19 18:48:13 UTC
    Needless to say since this thread got hijacked by the 'pro mach' / 'anti mach' extremist that the upcommin BS balancing is going to cause a storm of feeling both elated and hurt.

    Things that keep me up at night;  Why do we use a voice communication device to send telegraphs? Moore's Law should state, Once you have paid off the last PC upgrade you will need another.