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New dev blog: Unified Inventory Changes

First post First post First post
Author
Madenofpain
Omen Industries
Sixth Empire
#341 - 2012-05-24 07:00:30 UTC



CCP Soundwave wrote:
Maintaining two systems really isn't an option and I've never seen this promised anywhere. As I mentioned, we'll continue making changes and making fixes (like the looting reverting to the main hangar) though, so if you're missing any specific piece of functionality we'll definitely look at the viability of implementing it.


first off, Soundwave the work you do talking to the community is excellent, i wouldn't dream of saying otherwise. the same goes to all the other CCP staff who do likewise, when the **** hits the fan your here listening to everybody vent, trying to help out, that's great, i just wish other staff would at least spend half an hour to an hour a day responding to questions on THEIR work (*cough* CCP Arrow and CCP Optimal *cough*) i know they must be busy but one hour to show that CCP is actually committed to keeping good communication with the player base - especially after incarna - would go much further than you or any other employee saying you don't know you didn't work on it.

now i'm sure this is going to get buried but here goes here are my personal concerns, starting with the really important general one.

first and most important, the process that's happened here is almost identical to incarna. CCP put something on the test server that wasn't ready for deployment, were told about issues over and over again in the feedback thread and then promptly ignored them all and made it mandatory. then to add insult to injury somebody at CCP decided to make a cut and paste support response for, which didn't answer the question asked, outright lies and then points out two things you can do and says "this'll fix it!" when it obviously doesn't.

the lie? "With it, you can more easily manage all of your inventory from one screen" you forgot to add unless you want to move it, then you'll have to scroll like there's no tomorrow if you have a decent number of assets or ships. And lets not mention the extra 5-20 seconds delay i'm experiencing every single time i dock or warp to a POS on a high end machine with a 100mb connection

the two things? why shift click and click the condense arrow of course! then it'll give you the same experience as before! whoever came up with this little gem obviously hasn't tried it, i challenge any one of you to hide the filter and tree system, and get the same functionality. go on. i'll wait.

This is poor communication pure and simple. as is the fact that you and everybody else at CCP seems to be trying their damnedest to ignore the great steaming pile of excrement in the room which is that the overwhelming majority of people on the forums? DO NOT WANT this system bugs or no bugs, they don't like it, it doesn't give the same functionality. most of the rational ones will agree some people will. and THAT is part of the problem, this new UI? isn't inherently good or bad, it's entirely situational and depends on what you do and how you do it for my CEO? it's good, for me? it's nigh useless, and instead of those people getting any sort of reasonable response or attempt at compromise we get what essentially boils down to "tough it's here to stay" which smacks of incarna yet again.

you say two systems aren't really an option? why. give us clear concise reasons. most of EVEs players are not stupid. most of us are professionals or at least adults who will listen to a rational argument. instead of just saying "we can't do it" tell us why not. also last time i checked it was plenty possible for - again - the whole incarna mess which again you said was mandatory and wouldn't be changed.

i really hope i'm wrong but it seems like this expansion is a huge step backwards not only as far as the inventory is concerned but also where CCPs direction is concerned.

to quote Hellmar from his devblog

CCP Hellmar wrote:
But enough talk from me. We all know that much quoted phrase, “It’s not what you say, it’s what you do,” that will make the difference here. From now on, CCP will focus on doing what we say and saying what we do. That is the path to restoring trust and moving forward.


please take 5 minutes and take the time to read that dev blog again and remind yourself of the mistakes and promises you made then.

Here i'll link it for you.

for me? i'm not mad, i'm genuinely sad about this backslide. and as it stands right now i'm not renewing my subs. that simple. no you can't have my stuff. kinda unfortunate that i've been playing for 5 years now, and the month before i hit 100mill SP on my main account you kill the fun i get from the game. i build things, i use my inventory ALL the time, it's by far my most used feature, and you've destroyed it. what was 20minutes work per character is now nearly double that because of all the scrolling, and then second takes because it wasn't scrolling, and then corrections because i dropped materials into the wrong hanger by mistake.

the least it would take to turn this around in my eyes? make the new inventory UI in station only, preferably an option to disable it completely.

the best result as far as i'm concerned? an option to disable it - as like i said some people like it AND an apology for yet again ignoring your players.

and on a side note how exactly do you expect to get more people to test things on SiSi when you make a habit of ignoring the feedback you get from them? really.[/quote]


My feeling to the letter. I will be unsubing my account as well I return and get a big pile of garbage for a new ui feature
Symlin Raahn
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#342 - 2012-05-24 07:00:58 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Kaphrah wrote:
Hm, I really don't like the new UI, is it really too much work to make it optional?

my biggest problem is looting containers after salvaging wrecks.
If there are 50 containers around my noctis, I'll open them and click on "Loot all". Sounds easy, but the UI window always jumps back to my cargo, and I have to click on another container again, this takes ages if you have a lot of containers around your ship.

Before this ......... Patch, I opened all containers and just hit the "Loot All" Button in every window, please bring this back


Will check this out and post an update.


This is actually a bug and it's being fixed :)



OMG! Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Sometimes trying to play EVE just makes me tired... tired of fighting all the changes CCP makes that cause you to have to redo things.

TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#343 - 2012-05-24 07:05:41 UTC
Spyker Slater wrote:
BUG: I haven't seen this mentioned yet. I added drones to my drone bay using the new inventory not the fitting screen. Now I cannot launch them at all.


Did you report it?

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Obnoxious Fly
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#344 - 2012-05-24 07:07:11 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:


Shift-clicking works fine, but like with all shortcuts, you need to know it exists. We’re going to allow inventories to be “dragged out” of the main UI. It’s basically the same functionality as shift clicking, but instead of being hidden behind a hotkey, you can simply drag and drop it out with your mouse.


For Great Justice!

I'm a bit short on bandwidth so my remaining concern is about the long load times when you want to loot a container in a hurry.
Ribikoka
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#345 - 2012-05-24 07:08:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ribikoka
20 days earlier feedback. CCP really listen to playerbase ?


"Now every module/ship/drone etc moved to one merged window. Totally jumbled all of it.
Filtering system is fine when they just confusing the players because they merged all item to one windows ? LOL
This is just fix for a mistake which is come with the merged inventory.
Such a brain operation with an axe.

Was easy in old panel when anyone want to use a ship he just open hangar and he saw there 3 ship and easily picked up a ship. Now when someone open his inventory his ships merged with drones/ammo/craps/junks/etc

Use filters +3 clicks, and when docked back and want to search drones or another items use another filters or turning off the filters again (+clicks for filters) or looking below at the 12272345634 submenus or typing to searcbox.

Looting from wrecks or transfer items to containers is horrible with new itemwindow too. The smart pilots wont use this new windows ,just using drag and drop to the cargo icon on GUI. Why ? Because when you open a container with new system and you clicking and change a submenu at the left side panel, the previous itemwindow is dissapearing and need searching again a submenu, or you need another + Shift-click for open another window and you will repeating this sequence over and over. So, Why using the left side filepanel when that's it unuseable. You told use shift click for new item panel. Man, tell to us what is the the new one differs from the old solution then if you need open an another itemwindow for easy work ??? If open another windows will nothing change just you need + mouseclicks and you wont use the treepanel.

The old solution was much easier and which is important for an inventory was much clearer.

The old system was fine. CCP changing again that which is not broken and they want to change to wrong way again.Just as i said, this is same thing, when someone want to change back his Total Commander to Windows Explorer type filepanel. They like when a player use 130 mouse clicks for reach something ? If i remember they said after Greed is Good thingy, they will be listen to smart playerbase and they wont do other mistakes. But we saw at hybrid changes they dont listen to playerbase.

They why not fixing the broken things ? Just a question, the LP store is fine when you want to buy not just one item from same type ?
Just try to buy 140 skillbooks and you need 280 mouse clicks. Oh yeah that's broken and not fixed at least 6 years ago, and they cant make a counter for easy buying multiple items, they fixing the fine inventory system. LOL

This is same thing when they changed to CTRL+Double Click function on overview which was TargetEnemy+Align towards him.
Was easy and clear solution in one phase. But what happened ? They changed to Ctrl+Click for Targeting +Release CTRL button + Double click for align to enemy. They made a plus phase (and plus one mouseclick) for aligning towards enemy which is much worsen than older solution which was a simple but best solution.

Many times the plain things more effective than the complicated ones.
This changes is same thing."
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#346 - 2012-05-24 07:08:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Abdiel Kavash wrote:
Quote:
One is persisting windows that only work in certain places (you have a window that only works in the station and you want it to be open and in the same location the next time you dock for example).


PLEASE make this a priority. I often run several accounts at once. I want to know that at least my UI is set up the way I need it to be every time I dock. I don't want to have to spend minutes setting it up again, then click the wrong client and accidentally empty my cargo instead of loading up because the game decided to switch where my windows are.

No, I don't look at the window labels. I open - drag and drop - close. Reading the label would multiply the time it takes it for me to do the simplest tasks.

No, I don't see the window contents. A great deal of time the cargo I'm moving items to is empty, yet it's obviously important whether I dump stuff in my hangar or my corp hangar.

There is no way to easily visually tell which window is which now that I can't be sure that the windows aren't set up exactly the way I left them - cargo on the left, corp hangar in the middle, my hangar on the right, ships in the bottom, and fuel and drones tucked in the corner.



Sorry for quoting myself, but there is another thing I just realized. About a year and a half (maybe even more) each individual silo in a POS used to remember its position. In some expansion or patch this was removed (without a mention in the patch notes), and opening a silo would always re-use the position and size of the last opened silo window. Nobody cared about this since nobody at CCP cares about POS UI problems (no joke, we got used to it, it's a barrier of entry). Now that inventory is "the thing", could we make it so that I can put input silos on the top of my screen, output silos on the bottom, and have them stay this way?
Par'Gellen
#347 - 2012-05-24 07:23:56 UTC
The ability to sort the treeviews would be most welcome. Looking through hundreds of member hangars looking for a specific person is currently a nightmare.

"To err is human", but it shouldn't be the company motto...

arria Auscent
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2012-05-24 07:26:57 UTC
Devs saying they cant add an option to turn off is a lie
devs could code in pink elephants to fly from your missile launchers if they wanted
they dont want the option for the old UI as that would be admitting the new UI is a failure

(sits and waits for pink elephant missiles)
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#349 - 2012-05-24 07:34:12 UTC
Kata Amentis
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2012-05-24 07:34:50 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:
Kaphrah wrote:
Hm, I really don't like the new UI, is it really too much work to make it optional?

my biggest problem is looting containers after salvaging wrecks.
If there are 50 containers around my noctis, I'll open them and click on "Loot all". Sounds easy, but the UI window always jumps back to my cargo, and I have to click on another container again, this takes ages if you have a lot of containers around your ship.

Before this ......... Patch, I opened all containers and just hit the "Loot All" Button in every window, please bring this back


Will check this out and post an update.


This is actually a bug and it's being fixed :)


Out of curiosity... what are the chances of getting a "loot all" button next to the jetcan/wreck in the tree part of the inventory view?

If you're adding an indicator to the tree showing what is in range and what's not, looting fields of wrecks would concentrate on the tree and not have to open/open each jetcan/wreck just to get the loot all button on the contents panel.

Curiosity killed the Kata... ... but being immortal he wasn't too worried about keeping a count.

Mar Drakar
LDK
#351 - 2012-05-24 07:37:53 UTC
how hardwould it be:
- open temp containers in new windows by default (cans, wrecks etc.)
- when opening persistant containers - have BIG picture in item listing background that depicts what container this is, maybe a name rendered too, for example LAB: Mar Drakar personal advanced lab or
picture of thanatos and name:
SHIP: THANATOS
LOCATION: FUEL BAY (cargo/corp hangar1..7)

Just like file systems have specific folders for music, pictures etc, anduse slightly blended background for presentation
Joelleaveek
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#352 - 2012-05-24 07:38:03 UTC
I wish if i had something open in a separate window that item would disappear from the tree so i cant end up with multiple of the same can/hanger/etc open at the same time.
maxta destroyer
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#353 - 2012-05-24 07:45:36 UTC
Hope this is the right place to write this..

Great patch so far except for the new inventory system, i can see a lot of work coding this has been undertaken so to throw it out would be off the cards and dont get me wront the idea behind it is brilliant and some of the features are nice like the estimated value of each containers,

now the bad side,
1) I have no way to open multiple windows with hot keys, you have broken a realy fast way to load ammo and drones.

2) Do we need to see the inventory system when we are looting and salvaging a mission, i mean thats just confusing.

3) Where is my ship hanger that ive gottent to know and love, would like to see that back in the left pain so i can dock up fast and swap to a pvp ship for that neut that just bumped in system, oh wait ive got to swap drones dam now this is taking too long and ive lost my window to catch my neut target, ( also takes a long time to load the ship bay now)

4)I now cannot acces my carriers ship maintence bay when in not sitting in my carrier, and i cant click on my ship and open the ship maintence bay in station( havent tested out of station). also same for fuel and corp hangers!

Hope this dosnt fall on deaf ears as there are a lot of ppl that feel the same way about this new unified inventory system,

Apart from that great work guys!
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#354 - 2012-05-24 07:53:07 UTC
so im in station, i open a seprate window for my items and a seprate one for the first corp hanger in my orca.

i try dragging stuff from my hanger to the orca corp hanger, nothing happens.

so ok the items are bigger than the hanger, so i shift drag to split the stack down. nothing happens.

so i open up the inventory again, find my items and drag to the orca corp hanger window, the one that i opened what seams like 10 mins ago now, and finally i get my stuff in the hanger and i can undock.


you think this window and shift clicking for new windows is easier and solves the issues, think again.

please dont band aid this failed feature, jsut revert it back to the functioning one we had.
Cavaros
Tactically Armed Vanguard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#355 - 2012-05-24 07:54:35 UTC
Well were to start...

First off the local channel has gone all to hell (again) even though CCP fixes it yesterday... in 0.0 space thats VERY confusing, because the reds , the blues and the greens are all online although they are not.

Its is impossible to play with more than 1 toon at any gven time bacause off the "new and better" inventory system.

There are alot of really good features in this patch missiles etc. BUT because of the inventory issues and the local channel screw ups, I cant really enjoy them. It would be really good if I could have the option of adding the new inventory if i wanted to, and not being forced to use something that does not work. you (CCP) should tested it better on the test server instead of launching it now.
Dennie Fleetfoot
DUST University
#356 - 2012-05-24 08:04:57 UTC
What worries me and indeed concerns me is that none of the Unifubared team realised the single most important rule in modern User Interface design.

Mouse is king.

Everything that a interface can do, should be accessible via either left or right mouse button. Keyboard shorcuts should only EVER be a option for those can be bothered to remember them.

The moment that shift click was needed as a requirement to open a seperate window (before the last patch) or alt+ a key to reopen the inventory in station if you've docked with a cargo hold window open, was the moment that someone, anyone, should've have had the balls to put their hand up and say,

"We have a major design flaw here, let's stop what were doing and fix it before we go further."

Someone said it earlier. You've got programmers (very good ones I might add) designing features when it isn't their major strength. Designers should design things. Software engineers should implement those designs. Feedback, between the two, is to be encouraged. Neither should be doing the others job.

Every single fault in the Unifubared should've been recognised in the design stage before anyone got near a computer. The fact it didn't and your now asking us to help fix it AFTER deployement, is proof beyond doubt that Unifubared Inventory is the major fail of Inferno.

It's a fantastic tool for assets. It has no business being the default User Interface.

Any good designer would've told you that before we had to.

CEO Dust University

CPM 1&2 Member

www.twitter.com/DennieFleetfoot

Jebediah MacAhab Dallocort
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#357 - 2012-05-24 08:06:06 UTC
Hilmar.

You know how, on that one blog post of yours, you said something about being humbled about Incarna, and having done some soulsearching? (I wasn't around for Incarna, but I believe that's what it was in response to.)

Now, I want you to put on your manager hat. Make sure it's on nice and tight.

What would you have changed, in terms of internal CCP processes, procedures, and policies, in order to avoid another Incarna? This stuff is, after all, your job as CEO. Sure, you can delegate, but you still have to herd the VPs to move in that direction and get those changes implemented in their departments. What would you have done to avoid having an unwanted, unneeded change prematurely deployed and end up pissing off a large percentage of your subscribers?

Now, here's what I noticed about that blogpost that deeply concerns me, and it sets the stage for your probable response to this little disaster, as it reveals a slice about how you think about such situations.

First of all, you mention being "humbled". Although that's an appropriate reaction, the key we were looking for is concern. Concern that somewhere in your organization, a procedure didn't work as planned, a policy was ignored, etc. Once the fecal matter has collided with the impeller, and you get thousands of emails in your inbox, your reaction shouldn't be soul searching. Your reaction should be finding out what the **** happened and fixing it so it doesn't happen again. That's your job. You're the boss of all bosses at CCP, and you're not supposed to mope. You're supposed to get your hands dirty finding out what system broke down to allow something this intensely hated loose upon the world after testing at SiSi.

Therefore, I suggest the following.


  1. Find out why so many serious bugs got past your internal QA team (assuming you have one). This isn't obscure crap like a control being slightly misplaced (which I should mention, happens in the customs offices with the progress bar at the top clipping though the dropdown box). Figure out what happened. Talk to your QA staff and find out if procedures are in need of review, or if they need more tools or staff. QA is extremely important for MMOs, as bugs can shut down your network and result in lost revenues, not to mention the users unsubbing.
  2. If you don't have an internal QA team, make one. If you don't have the funds, set aside a day of the week just for playtesting by the developers and internal staff. I suggest Friday, as it's close to the weekend and allows the dev team to think about solutions to problems over the weekend. Run unit tests after each commit via a continuous integration system like Jenkins or Bamboo.
  3. A day or two after each patch is deployed to SiSi, collate known problems and hold a postmortem review to triage defects and assign them to individual developers for fixing, also to share ideas on how to fix these problems.
  4. A few days before deploying to SiSi or TQ, playtest not just with PVP, but as industrials (salvagers, miners, manufacturers, haulers), commercial (traders, shipping), and leadership positions, plus any other roles I forgot to mention here.
  5. Make absolutely goddamn sure that SiSi thinks that the features are ready for deployment before deploying to TQ. I suggest Hilmar himself drops by the SiSi forums and asks how things are going. A vote might be useful, but make sure everyone who's on SiSi votes on it so you don't just get the opinionated ones, and no "I'm not sure" answers.
  6. No set-in-stone deadlines. If **** breaks, go ahead and delay. Yes, people will *****, but all you have to do is mention the features would result in another Incarna/Inferno if released in their current state.
  7. Set up an anonymous way for employees to voice concerns about procedures, policies, or the current state of the project.
  8. Listen to your users. Actually do it. I don't care if you don't like it or not; We provide your paycheck, and if we don't like how you're doing, we'll stop. Yes, there's lots of stupid ideas in here, but if it's wanted by the majority of the users, you should definately consider it.


Keep in mind that you may already do some of this stuff, but I have no idea how you guys run your rodeo.

How to Improve Quality Assurance at CCP

Professional Programmer, DBA, Game Developer and Systems Analyst

Vortl
Black Cloud Industries
#358 - 2012-05-24 08:15:54 UTC
The new UI inventory system is absolutely appalling. It really begs the question whether anyone at CCP plays the game. Given that we know that you do it suggests that you are writing the code for your personal play style and screw the rest of us.

As for the suggested "fixes" of adding shortcuts etc I wonder if you are now based in a lunatic asylum and not a software development house, especially when you ignore the waves of critisism rasied with this "master piece" from your loyal, if somewhat disheartened player base.

For goodness sake learn from previous mistakes dont give us a set of invisible clothes and tell us they are they the latest fashion these kings of space are not that stupid.

A turd is a turd is a turd no matter how hard you polish it.

Inventory management is one of the first things new players to the game see, if it looks like crap they are not going to hang around for long. Please accept your screw ups like a man and be prepared to admit a mistake and go back to what worked perfectly well before.

Somewhere I thought there was a list of things the customers wanted "fixed" as a priority I dont recall this being one of them but maybe I am wrong and unlike you I am happy to admit it if I am. Such a mistake however will not invalidate that this inventory system is appalling.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#359 - 2012-05-24 08:17:07 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
You see folks. This is what happens when you spend your time giving good, detailed suggestions
You mean nothing? Yes, we know that already, that's why people have been screaming.

People have spent time giving good, detailed suggestions for the last month. It resulted in nothing until everyone started yelling about how they hated it and were going to unsub.
Spanking Monkeys
ZC Omega
Goonswarm Federation
#360 - 2012-05-24 08:19:41 UTC
locked bpos no longer display locked(greyed out) you have to move them to check.

this inventory thing sucks ass