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New dev blog: Unified Inventory Changes

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Author
Challu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2012-05-24 02:58:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Challu
The changes noted in the devblog are a start; I don't think they'll make it quite as user friendly as it was before, but it'll probably make it slightly less frustrating. Meanwhile, here's a suggestion:

- Spawn a tree of a container when it's opened with that item as root, in a NEW container. Do this subsequently for every container that has a tree (even if the root is the only node), irrespective of how many containers are already open.

Thus, when I double click on the active ship with the Inventory otherwise open, it would open a new contained with the ship hanger, its drone bay and other bays. (Incidentally, when I double click on ship now it actually closes the already opened Inventory window, lol..)

This will mimic the functionality we had before while keeping the functionalities of the new Inventory Mgmt tool in place. And yes, I know, you can scroll and shift+click or soon-to-be-added-drag, but remember that all that running around when you have tons of containers is exactly what makes this a PITA. Mimic the old functionality with the new engine, and I think we'll be happy.
Maul555
Xen Investments
Xen Combine
#302 - 2012-05-24 03:06:13 UTC
As I recall, During the incarna debacle, CCP stated, just like now, that they cannot go back to the old code. However they where able to mimic the old code extremely well, to the point that I could hardly tell the difference. Do this again and all will be sunshine and rainbows. I promise.
Mathieollo
Ind Inc
#303 - 2012-05-24 03:06:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Mathieollo
Meytal wrote:
Let's assume that each node in the tree has a unique ID. Right now, it appears the tree is dynamically generated at each login, so these IDs may change from login to login.


from what i've been able to tease out through observation and just trying to visualize how it must work on the code side, unfortunately, i believe this statement is mostly not true, in fact from what i can tell the ID may be saved as blank or even null until the first session change instead of being generated by initial login, which coincidentally would explain why the unified inventory window seems to be at least trying to remember and save it's position after i've jumped once but appears in the middle of the screen until then.
Debir Achen
Makiriemi Holdings
#304 - 2012-05-24 03:10:48 UTC
What I really want are standard inventory windows, with the option to go to the full blown tree view if I need it (preferably in a new centre-screen window). This would mirror my current workflow for things like asset searches or wallet vs market orders.

Unified inventory: fantastic tool, really annoying default.

Aren't Caldari supposed to have a large signature?

Challu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#305 - 2012-05-24 03:20:04 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
As I recall, During the incarna debacle, CCP stated, just like now, that they cannot go back to the old code. However they where able to mimic the old code extremely well, to the point that I could hardly tell the difference. Do this again and all will be sunshine and rainbows. I promise.


Exactly!

And this massive mess-up is really unfortunate, because the potential for the new system is really great - orders of magnitude more than what we had before.
Meytal
Doomheim
#306 - 2012-05-24 03:27:43 UTC
Maul555 wrote:
As I recall, During the incarna debacle, CCP stated, just like now, that they cannot go back to the old code. However they where able to mimic the old code extremely well, to the point that I could hardly tell the difference. Do this again and all will be sunshine and rainbows. I promise.

I believe this new Inventory can become sufficiently feature-rich to allow this. It is already very close to many of the more common features.

I wonder though... since the old container-based inventory system existed for SO long that perhaps there are many subtle nuances that even CCP devs have forgotten existed?
Endeavour Starfleet
#307 - 2012-05-24 03:56:38 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Guard
Jonuts wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
You see folks. This is what happens when you spend your time giving good, detailed suggestions instead of..

"OH NOES I H8 N3W invintory system soz I gonna unsub now bai!!!"

This new inventory system is the future. And once the many improvements and fixes are in place you will watch older system videos and wonder how you survived.



Why is the new system the future? You aren't "ahead of your time" or "Forward thinking" or anything else like that when you take the wheels off a car and call it the future because you can dock an ipod in it. What was wrong with the old system? Was it too user friendly? Was CCP afraid that a "casual" player might not be offended at the difficulty making sure I have roughly 5k rounds of ammo in my ship?

No, I assure you, I'll watch videos of the old system and wonder why they broke what worked.


And then make another whine on the forums I am sure.

It's the future because it can be greatly improved and adapted, To eventually work best for everyone. Instead of dealing with that and anticipating further developments y'all have chosen to whine and scream which helps nobody.

Other than. "BRING BACK TEH OLD NA0" Try giving them good suggestions for options on it that can benefit your playstyle.

Maraner wrote:
I still have trouble believing this has been implemented despite all the post in the test thread, you guys are really digging in on this one arnt you.

The stupidity inherent in this and the rage from a large part of the community shows how badly you have miscalculated, that you had to put up a dev blog on this listing the fixes to a new feature that you pushed to the TQ is almost beyond belief.

I like almost everyone that I have spoke to in regards to the UI hate it. Roll it back now, or make it optional as it should have been from the beginning. There is very clearly another agenda at work here to explain why you have done this to us? I note the inane 'user centred design' mantra is missing.....good.

Very disappointed by this, its making the good stuff in Inferno be missed, suck it up and roll it back, this isnt going away. Do it now before you get INCARNA 2.0


You are comparing the new system which SOME do not like to a MASSIVE prior shift from flying in space to walking in stations and the year plus it robbed from real EVE development?

Seriously? There is whining then there is just plain stupid.

Davion Falcon wrote:
So after :doing things: during my activities I've got some feedback:

1) There's a 0.5 to 1 second lag when doing...pretty much anything with the new inventory system. It's small, but gets aggravating.

2) Salvaging with a Noctis:

Previous functionality: Double click a bunch of cargo containers with loot, spam loot all button as it cycles through each container.

Current functionality: Double click a bunch of containers, little freeze each time container is opened causes a container or two to fail to open, pressing loot all causes another little freeze...and the inventory screen goes back to my ships cargohold rather than the next container, click next container, repeat.

Suggestions: Restore previous functionality of cycling through each cargo container/wreck rather than defaulting to the ship cargohold. A 'loot all nearby containers/wrecks' button.

3) Items dropped into a secure container at a station are locked even though it's configured to be unlocked on default. Bug?

4) Minimizing the 'My Filters' sub box, docking, heading back out, opening another container has the 'My Filters" sub box open again with the little arrows (whatever they're called) pointed upwards as if to open them...even though they're already open.


This is what is called good feedback. You state the situations affected. You note the actions affecting it. And then you give your suggestions without tons of whining. CCP takes this and improves the whole system so we all benefit.

The old system is NOT coming back.
General Disdane
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#308 - 2012-05-24 04:03:14 UTC  |  Edited by: General Disdane
How about some love for us salvagers? I like to salvage all my wrecks first and that leaves me with a big cloud of cargo containers around me.

Every time I hit loot all it goes back to my ship cargo. I miss being able to just hit loot all like 50 times in a row and be done with it.

D=

I was thinking either have the inventory just go up one level when a cargo container disappears from existence like that (instead of reverting to the absolute top of the tree with is my ship) or be able to CTRL-SHIFT-CLICK to highlight all the cargo cans and loot all.

Edit: Of course someone beat me to that. Shouldn't have just scanned through everything.
General Freight
GIRLFRIEND SURF TEAM
#309 - 2012-05-24 04:11:16 UTC
CCP Soundwave wrote:

When you use a shortcut to open a specific bay, it will open in “separated” mode, with the tree view compact so you can quickly get the view you want.


Whoa there! Please do this, with the exception that things with "tabs" (e.g. POS modules, corp hangars?) should open WITH the tree view expanded. So we don't have to expand it to get to the damn tabs. Nobody wants the first tab every time they open it. Why hide the nav? The old system didn't hide the nav. Or you could put tabs back at the top, in multi-bay holds, in addition to the tree, so it's just one click. I'm fine with anything that keeps it at one click. (Especially if you can let it REMEMBER WHICH TAB I had it on last. Just like the old one did.)
Diamonica Norya
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#310 - 2012-05-24 04:19:49 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Jonuts wrote:
The unified inventory was a waste of resources. You've taken what wasn't broken, and broke it. Cut your losses, hit the undo button, and set the team to do something useful like make dealing with POS's something OTHER than a total pain in the ass. Really, do you guys even play test this garbage before offloading it on us?


umm.. no

Just because you don't like it and want to whine on the forums does not make it broken.


you know why Eve never really achieved much of a success and has been stagnant for years? Because even when people post legitimate concerns (not everyone can come up with solutions, but can bring forward the issues and feedback) regarding anything they felt negative about, the very people from CCP and their dear fanbois simply regard those as whining.

If you're not open to criticisms, you never improve. Same goes if you don't realize your mistakes even when the resulting disasters are clearly presented.

what does CCP do?
Go hide in the sand? stubbornly stick to "their" visions? Fearless?

Feedback-wise:
It will never really pass the newbies stage and only be useful to people who relies on liquid assets, for those who needs managing a reasonable amount of assets (tens of thousands) between corpies, POS, ship corp hangers etc, this system is almost totally inadequate. From intuitiveness to efficiency, it achieved nothing but pleased the newbies and people who has no idea about how to organize their assets ever. This new system is simply a logistical nightmare.

Thoughts:
It simply shows that non of the devs from producer to designer to programmer, nobody probably ever sought advises from professional asset management experts, seriously they didn't even study how the inventory system from a local convenience store worked.


Like myself and many other players have already mentioned over and over again, this unified inventory concept would've worked better as the "Asset" replacement rather than the current implementation. Why? Just look at how many Eve asset management third party tools are out there atm and why they are popularly used by people who have loads of assets.

Afterthoughts:
it's obvious that DUST development taking it's toll on this Eve's meh expansion this time round. Perhaps CCP made a deal with Sony because Sony elected to have CCP develop a new inventory system to ease the level of entry for the would-be DUST players and CCP came up with this thing that we have now.
Alx Warlord
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#311 - 2012-05-24 04:22:35 UTC
Despite the fact that we now will be able to rename things in POS, we also need to Have more TABS for management!!! At least one for each corp member in the corporate hangar!!!
Zorok
The Guardian Knights
#312 - 2012-05-24 04:24:29 UTC
One item I also noted with the UI is that it's cumbersome now to load ore into Secure containers especially if you are in a ship with a large cargo hold such as the orca. Before, I could highlight all the containers in the cargo bay, right-click, and it would open them all up tabbed out across the screen. Now I have to go up and down a list of containers. One suggestion I have is to allow the filter to filter out containers that are full. When I'm in a rush to get the ore into containers, I sometimes lose track of which container I last filled.

Another good suggestion to the UI would be to add Left/Right arrows at the top of each container so that you can quickly just move to the next container without having to continually click on the list and having to scroll every time you wish to view containers that aren't currently displayed. With this new UI system, I have shrunk my icons in-game to 90% because the interface takes up a lot of screen real-estate.
Diamonica Norya
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#313 - 2012-05-24 04:34:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Diamonica Norya
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
-long post-


You know what when you said it can be improved ... etc. blah blah blah.

here's the deal

*Single window isn't going to cut it, ever! Especially when you expands your role and profession to the deeper part of the game

*Asset function is still obsolete and cannot compete with various third party tools

*Price estimates are inaccurate and not flexible in terms of allowing multiple price estimation models.

*Old system was never a spread sheet, nor is the new one, but with more clicks and shuffling around which simply wastes efforts, makes the game un-enjoyable and more like work, even the first version of PI from Tyrannis was less tedious.

*Tree without ability to filter / sort on the tree itself is not useful

*Any file explorer will allow recursive search / filter function

*current system lacks a "root" directory

just something i can already come up with in a matter or minutes, there are plenty of many other suggestions and feedback, you should also check out Tippia's arguments, the question is how are people in charge going to look at it. If they take every criticism and feedback as whining and QQ, then I see no hope from such kind of people.

P.S. - You probably don't want to simply say whoever didn't include potential ideas to the solutions to issues that were brought up are simply not constructive either. To think about it, if CCP relies on players to think up solutions and their sole job is to implement those solutions, then the current game design team has already failed its purpose. It means CCP should then hire someone who really "can" design and not simply program (literally). I don't want to bring this further because if you have put in 1/2 of effort thinking about it then you know the entire outcome already.
Rodnik Riasson
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#314 - 2012-05-24 04:53:38 UTC
Quote:
CCP Soundwave wrote:

When you use a shortcut to open a specific bay, it will open in “separated” mode, with the tree view compact so you can quickly get the view you want.


just for clarification: by shortcut, do you only mean keyboard shortcuts?
because it's mostly annoying, that it does not open a new window if you use a direct way to a desired comtainer ( double clicking your ship for example)
it's irritating and i'd really like an option to open any inventory which i opened via gui that is not the new explorer menu, to open a new window.
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#315 - 2012-05-24 04:57:55 UTC
SigmaPi wrote:
I'd still like to suggest this:

When filters are active, folders or items with none of that item present become hidden (or at least have an option for this) - this would make POS management that much easier.

I.E. - Filter with 'ore and minerals' and it will automagically hide all the guns and other structures that are of no concern to you.

Thoughts?


And make sure this filter is remembered to be set on a tree on the location you have opened the tree, so in station / in space, etc.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Pirmasis Sparagas
Bullet Cluster
#316 - 2012-05-24 05:18:35 UTC
My solution to UI windows:

Just look what Computer OS did (Windows, MAC OS X, Linux etc.).
Do they have Unified window? NO! Imagine using Windows OS only with one window... Insane...

But you are going to the right direction, because new OS also have folder/location tree on the left.
So make both, and learn from others.

Vote for multiple windows with location tree
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#317 - 2012-05-24 05:20:42 UTC  |  Edited by: TheSmokingHertog
Ok, lets get some things out of the way;

  1. Remove the prefix on containers / inventory windows dragged out of the main inventory window, or reverse the nameset, make my custom name first show, and then the prefix, so I can identify tabbed inventroy windows or containers on the number given to the container. (1, ammo 2, skillbooks, 3 etc)...
  2. Please let he main inventory window remain the focus of your mouse / keyboard until I activate another focuspoint with my mouse, distribution of items to several endpoints (Jita, Dodixie, etc), has now several extra steps, since my stock inventory container looses focus each time, now I have to shift click it and drag / drop from this container, it would be great if I could work with less windows as this update intended.
  3. Can we get the fill bar of containers seen as a little bar on the main inventory tree?
  4. Please let containers remember not only the location in space / in station, but also the sorting / display state of set window.
  5. Please let containers within the inventory tree have another inventory listing setting as the main window and let them be remembered on container level.
  6. Please let us assign a primary key to the for us important inventory management position. Then if that one is not opened, ALT C could open that window, all other windows could be ignored as inventory windows, since they are not primary keyed.
  7. Make a hide button << for the est price bar, thx.

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-

Sir Halfloaf
Amarrian Bakery Corp
#318 - 2012-05-24 05:23:21 UTC
its a start , still if you manage the "windows stay open and remember their positions when undock / dock " it will be a start .

Could one of your Boffins not work out how to make the system revert to a similar approach to the old UI (using the new UI ) for us that really Care about the look and feel of it ?

Also No mention of the looting of wrecks problems with the new UI ?? it is so cumbersome as opposed to the old " wreck opens a seperate window " , you then "cherry pick the loot (drag n Drop) across to your cargo hold" system .

Just small things i know but it all spoils the enjoyment the EvE has brought me over the years .
Bedlin
Caldari Organizational Logistics Department
#319 - 2012-05-24 05:27:51 UTC
I am reposting my post from the other response post here with some changes:
#740 Posted: 2012.05.24 04:01 | Report


So here are some of the main problems I see and you can look at ways to alleviate the problems. Really though the big one for me is number 3 needs to go back to opening cans in space the way it was before.

1. To new players it adds quite a bit of confusion and frustration on what is where related to their ship cargo holds.

2. For older players it adds steps because it is almost entirely necessary, when you have different sorted station containers and hundreds of items and dozens of ships, to SHIFT CLICK out the station containers and cargo holds you need to ensure you don't do the "lost outlook email drag" problem.

3. This one is the BIGGEST problems for me, when you are in space and you open a container it opens it in the unified inventory and not in a different window, this creates a problem if you are not wanting to LOOT ALL with the button but just 1 or 2 items.

4. The corp storage bay WITHIN my orca is listed under the inventory system as Corp Storage 7-8-9 something like that you have to use the last one to find your items.

Overall the inventory is fine in the station.... all be it more confusing and time consuming..... but in space with containers it is a problem. (Also the orca hangar thing is a GIGANTIC confusing problem because it doesnt tell me, YEP that's in this ship you have docked . . . if I had not had several items in it I might not have been able to figure how to even access the orca bay after the patch.)

I would deeply appreciate you taking a look at it. Also if you think we are all people who just complain on every patch please see how often I have spoken on the forums.

Bedlin '09 character

Where's the promised loot drops for Rogue Drones?    --DeMichael Crimson

L iriel
Destructive Influence
Northern Coalition.
#320 - 2012-05-24 05:27:57 UTC
The new inventory sux get rid of it! I can't open multiple containers within by hanger to organize things. If you can't get rid of it, then make it optional like the captains quarters.