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( ABSTAIN at very bottom) CSM is only a meta game with ramifications - other options when voting.

First post
Author
Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#241 - 2012-02-28 17:44:57 UTC
I you really want to protest the system then vote for a 7 year old girl!

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#242 - 2012-02-28 18:16:05 UTC
Well there is the civil method and making a joke out of it; either might accomplish the same ends.

Real thing to fear is when you are joking then they take you serious, suddenly, one day you log in and they have implemented magical space unicorns, pixies and fairies that shoot sparkles, rainbows and flowers at each other in place of ships and shooting effects.

Would make a great April Fool's joke though. Twisted

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Snowflake Tem
The Order of Symbolic Measures
#243 - 2012-02-29 07:43:23 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:
Stll, there is no better alternative to democracy, except a dictatorship with me as the dictator.


There is. You simply need to look at the weaknesses of a system then look at improvements. For example, straight off the bat you could try to ensure that the people are competent before they stand for election

There are theoretical systems that have not been tried yet. One reason being that they threaten the way that democracy currently controls people while giving them a placebo "feel good" affect.


how do you measure competency? We all do, just to different standards.

there is something to be said for dictatorships, they get stuff done
Jenshae Chiroptera
#244 - 2012-02-29 22:37:24 UTC
Snowflake Tem wrote:

how do you measure competency? We all do, just to different standards.

there is something to be said for dictatorships, they get stuff done


Minister of Transport that studied history and political science, sit in the back with a newspaper while driven, never did logistics, worked in the traffic department and can not even change a tire - would you consider that a ringing endorsement of competency?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#245 - 2012-03-01 02:51:54 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Snowflake Tem wrote:
how do you measure competency? We all do, just to different standards.

there is something to be said for dictatorships, they get stuff done

Minister of Transport that studied history and political science, sit in the back with a newspaper while driven, never did logistics, worked in the traffic department and can not even change a tire - would you consider that a ringing endorsement of competency?

I was thinking about us.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#246 - 2012-03-01 20:49:39 UTC
CCP Xhagen wrote:
Re: Regarding CSM elections.
From: CCP Xhagen
Sent: 2012.02.29 15:26
To: CCP ####, Jenshae Chiroptera,

Hi Jenshae Chiroptera.

I've read your post and while I understand your points, they can be made about any form of election and/or information gathering of this nature.

The CSM is far from being the only source of information CCP uses, while it is (undoubtedly) the most prominent one.

I also want to correct you on one thing - there is an "Abstain" option for the CSM elections. If you look up the devblogs giving the results from the previous elections you'll see us specifically stating how many players voted "Abstain"

Cheers,
Xhagen


Quote:
From: Jenshae Chiroptera
To: CCP Xhagen

Apologies, I must have misread it as I thought that was a count of active members that would not vote.

Also, I am lacking the term or word that I want to convey, which is, "Sure, have the CSM but know that declare most definitely that none of them represent me as players will always be too biased and steer games into a gradual long term decline."


Well a response at least. What?Smile

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2012-03-01 21:43:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Well a response at least. What?Smile


I'm impressed with how civil the staff are with the 1424th random pubbie who wants to mouth off about how unfair their Free Vacations for Space Nerds program is.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#248 - 2012-03-01 21:47:03 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Well a response at least. What?Smile


I'm impressed with how civil the staff are with the 1424th random pubbie who wants to mouth off about how unfair their Free Vacations for Space Nerds program is.



Probably because I am not saying that? Blink

Go ahead, have a party, inflate their egos but ultimately pay them lip service, as they are not good for EVE.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#249 - 2012-03-01 21:54:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


Probably because I am not saying that? Blink

Go ahead, have a party, inflate their egos but ultimately pay them lip service, as they are not good for EVE.


yet, there's all that in the OP



also yes, if the mittani so much as whispers in a dev's ear that highsec stations should be killable it will happen. the csm has that influence.

he wants highsec titans to kill stations, which will disable concord forever




i also hate the skill queue


**** csms
Jenshae Chiroptera
#250 - 2012-03-01 21:56:21 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:

yet, there's all that **** in the OP


Need help with it?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#251 - 2012-03-01 21:57:57 UTC
no thanks theres a copy right here

Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
What a surprise, at a glance, Test Alliance x2 , Noir, Volition Cult, AAA, Goons x2, Pandemic x2, xxDeath, Razor, Darkside - another year to look forward to with null sec dominance of CSM. Roll

GMs would be more impartial, especially since they usually apply for a public relations and not a gaming job. They could play in Jove space to get the hang of the game and understand which ideas are good to put forward from the forums., while greeting new players.

During the course of this thread, I have come to a realisation; that I have no faith in the CSM. I can understand the intentions of CCP in starting the CSM. However, the problem is that is has become a tool of meta-gaming both in terms of alliance status and in terms of trying to manipulate the game for short sighted reasons. Candidates stand and are voted for based on sides, interests and bias.
Thus, I believe that CSM detriment to EVE far out weighs any benefit and request the following voting options:

  • Abstain /suspend - actively declaring no confidence in the candidates or CSM and possibly having no CSM for a year.
  • Removal - believing that the system is irredeemable and should be withdrawn entirely.

See, the problem might not be that people are too lazy to vote. They simply don't want any of those people involved in the decision process of their game.

We should have the option to say, "I do not support this system and or group," or, "These people do not represent me."

As a reply:
"For now, the votes are similar to these 'Like' buttons. People can only say that they agree, they have no voice to say that they disagree or do not like who is being put forward"

--------- Original post below. ---------


There are some fundamental problems with democracy.

Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them.

For example, in South Africa, the Zulus, which is the largest group always vote for the ANC party which comprises of people from their tribe. They will even vote in a new leader who has forcefully removed the previous leader before the end of his term and is up on corruption, arms dealing and indecent assault charges prior to the election.

Null sec voting blocks.

Your control as a voter is usually an illusion.

Even in the best of conditions, your choices narrow down to only a few candidates that are usually chosen for you. You do not get to elect the entire bureaucracy, who make the day to day decisions. You have no recourse if those people do not follow through with their promises and have only told you what you wanted to hear.
There is no "neither" option on the ballots.

CCP developers and the CSM system.

Money and propaganda machines.

There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.

Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.

Charisma is not the same as aptitude.

Politicians are not required to undergo IQ or personality tests. They do not have to write particular exams or prove their competency. All they simply have to do is convince you to vote for them.

Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material.

Tangents

There seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims.

I would like to see areas being improved for the people that are there and enjoy that play style instead of breaking things to force others there.

There are some individuals that you might think are okay or that you like but have a look at the groups that they lead. They wouldn't be leading them if they were not liked and are similar to those people.

Edit:

The system produces particular results.
Player desires ruin games.


Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Meanwhile, I am saying that this process / system produces useless people and results, which may mislead CCP.


Killer Gandry wrote:
I do understand where the fear comes from when discussing the option of an active abstain button.

It could actually show there are more people against the circus called "CSM" than there are pro-CSM people. As such the "glorious" position of chairman or woman wouldn't be as shiney as some try to call out anymore.


JusFooling Around wrote:
...
CCP has to realize that the only people represented by the CSM are the ones who voted, so the smaller the field of voters, the smaller the value of the CSM becomes.

Yeah, CCP - hire the pros and get a first class marketing firm as that guy said a few pages back.

This whole "high school student government" experiment has proven itself useless.


Just recognize the voter turnout for what it is - a small portion of the player base wanting to impose their views on the vast majority of the players who don't choose to play the part of the game they think we should.
...


JitaJolie wrote:
I would consider using one of my accounts to cast a no confidence vote on a particular candidate.

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#252 - 2012-03-01 22:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
seriously, what did you make me read


e; sorry, allow me to contribute. just a little



you actually think there's

Quote:
There seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims.


and that

Quote:
There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.

Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.


and a whole lot of

Quote:
The system is flawed because I know my special snowflake candidate won't get elected!


that last one was fake. i made it. can you tell?



e2; an abstain option is cool i guess, why the hell not vOv
Jenshae Chiroptera
#253 - 2012-03-01 22:27:22 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:

Quote:
The system is flawed because I know my special snowflake candidate won't get elected!

that last one was fake. i made it. can you tell?

e2; an abstain option is cool i guess, why the hell not vOv


System is flawed because game after game is dying when they listen to a vocal minority.

GMs = impartial assessment as it is just work to them with no extra gain depending on what is changed. Big smile

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2012-03-02 00:06:25 UTC
you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence.

remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!!


on a related but still terrible note, did you just accuse the largest alliances in the game of paying members to **** up forums? i think you did.
Quote:
There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.

Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#255 - 2012-03-02 00:14:26 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence.

remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!!


on a related but still terrible note, did you just accuse the largest alliances in the game of paying members to **** up forums? i think you did.
Quote:
There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.

Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.


There is no way other than deliberately for you to be this obtuse. Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#256 - 2012-03-02 00:31:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Sir Marksalot wrote:
you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence.

remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!!


on a related but still terrible note, did you just accuse the largest alliances in the game of paying members to **** up forums? i think you did.
Quote:
There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.

Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.


There is no way other than deliberately for you to be this obtuse. Roll


there, i bolded the part where you pulled things out of your ass and said that alliances are paying people for votes



Sir Marksalot wrote:
you're right, eve is dying(is it?) because someone(hopefully us!) killed your retriever. it's also the csm's fault for not making pvp a bannable offence.

remember! nullsec players want to kill all of highsec! even wormholes!!!



it's almost like i'm making things up on this part isn't it? (it's what you're doing)


e; your analogy of the minister of transportation guy reading(le gasp!) and not driving everywhere on his own is equally hilarious, btw.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#257 - 2012-03-02 03:54:33 UTC
Quote:
Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.
[/quote]
I think that person thinks we mine ice watching the miner go pew pew at the ice, instead of alt-tabbing to the forums.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#258 - 2012-03-02 05:29:40 UTC
We actually have forum ops with FCs telling us what to post on Teamspeak, and our alliance runs a post replacement program for posts that get deleted by CCP Phantom.
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#259 - 2012-03-02 05:30:40 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
We actually have forum ops with FCs telling us what to post on Teamspeak, and our alliance runs a post replacement program for posts that get deleted by CCP Phantom.

They're actually reimbursable, wow!

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#260 - 2012-03-02 10:00:48 UTC

More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.

ALT + Tab? Only have one screen? -.^

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.