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( ABSTAIN at very bottom) CSM is only a meta game with ramifications - other options when voting.

First post
Author
Johnny Marzetti
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#261 - 2012-03-02 13:27:19 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.


I have to admit there's a part of me that would love to see the world through your eyes just long enough to get an idea of what it's like for you.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#262 - 2012-03-02 13:35:56 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.


I have to admit there's a part of me that would love to see the world through your eyes just long enough to get an idea of what it's like for you.


Talk with me long enough, the insanity is contagious. Twisted

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Franklin D Roosevelt
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#263 - 2012-03-02 21:13:04 UTC


  • Abstain /suspend - actively declaring no confidence in the candidates or CSM and possibly having no CSM for a year.
  • Removal - believing that the system is irredeemable and should be withdrawn entirely.

See, the problem might not be that people are too lazy to vote. They simply don't want any of those people involved in the decision process of their game.

We should have the option to say, "I do not support this system and or group," or, "These people do not represent me."

As a reply:
"For now, the votes are similar to these 'Like' buttons. People can only say that they agree, they have no voice to say that they disagree or do not like who is being put forward"

--------- Original post below. ---------


There are some fundamental problems with democracy.

Tribes or groups of people will vote for a particular person associated with them.

For example, in South Africa, the Zulus, which is the largest group always vote for the ANC party which comprises of people from their tribe. They will even vote in a new leader who has forcefully removed the previous leader before the end of his term and is up on corruption, arms dealing and indecent assault charges prior to the election.

Null sec voting blocks.

Your control as a voter is usually an illusion.

Even in the best of conditions, your choices narrow down to only a few candidates that are usually chosen for you. You do not get to elect the entire bureaucracy, who make the day to day decisions. You have no recourse if those people do not follow through with their promises and have only told you what you wanted to hear.
There is no "neither" option on the ballots.

CCP developers and the CSM system.

Money and propaganda machines.

There are people financially well off and connected enough to basically shout louder than anyone else. They have the resources to hire people to go about spreading their information and making a lot of flashy displays.

Alliances with the ISK cushion; that can dedicate people to forums and favour trading in game instead of being distracted with the struggle to be viable.

Charisma is not the same as aptitude.

Politicians are not required to undergo IQ or personality tests. They do not have to write particular exams or prove their competency. All they simply have to do is convince you to vote for them.

Alliance or corporation leader are not necessarily good CSM material.

Tangents

There seems to be a growing tendency to destroy high security and worm hole space. There seems to be large vocal groups who instead of working as people to improve their social groups or to get their area of space made better for them, seek only to sabotage the other options so that people are left with no other choice than to go out there and be slaughtered as victims.

I would like to see areas being improved for the people that are there and enjoy that play style instead of breaking things to force others there.

There are some individuals that you might think are okay or that you like but have a look at the groups that they lead. They wouldn't be leading them if they were not liked and are similar to those people.

Edit:

The system produces particular results.
Player desires ruin games.


Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Meanwhile, I am saying that this process / system produces useless people and results, which may mislead CCP.


Killer Gandry wrote:
I do understand where the fear comes from when discussing the option of an active abstain button.

It could actually show there are more people against the circus called "CSM" than there are pro-CSM people. As such the "glorious" position of chairman or woman wouldn't be as shiney as some try to call out anymore.


JusFooling Around wrote:
...
CCP has to realize that the only people represented by the CSM are the ones who voted, so the smaller the field of voters, the smaller the value of the CSM becomes.

Yeah, CCP - hire the pros and get a first class marketing firm as that guy said a few pages back.

This whole "high school student government" experiment has proven itself useless.


Just recognize the voter turnout for what it is - a small portion of the player base wanting to impose their views on the vast majority of the players who don't choose to play the part of the game they think we should.
...


JitaJolie wrote:
I would consider using one of my accounts to cast a no confidence vote on a particular candidate.
[/quote]
I agree with everything here... +10000
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#264 - 2012-03-03 07:26:29 UTC
Johnny Marzetti wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.

I have to admit there's a part of me that would love to see the world through your eyes just long enough to get an idea of what it's like for you.

They don't realize we win more by not logging in.

And in some cases, EVE-O forums might not rank much higher than logging in.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Josef Djugashvilis
#265 - 2012-03-03 09:59:03 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked

you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you





You should quit Eve and come back again when you are a bit more mature.

This is not a signature.

Korah Arnelle
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#266 - 2012-03-03 10:28:28 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:
Two step wrote:
What about people like me, or Trebor, or Meissa, all of whom aren't members of large alliances, who are on the CSM? Doesn't that prove that you are wrong that large alliance backing is required to be elected?

exception proves the rule


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exception_that_proves_the_rule




Technically, exceptions prove the exception. Just being a logic nerd on this, sorry. :)
Jenshae Chiroptera
#267 - 2012-03-03 12:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Josef Djugashvilis wrote:
Retar Aveymone wrote:
unless of course you realize what it means: this is a bad thread and the people in it should be mocked
you, my aspie friend, fit perfectly into this category what with your rage against democracy because nobody likes you

You should quit Eve and come back again when you are a bit more mature.

I suspect that is not possible for them due to some limitations:
Quote:
A person deformed and mentally handicapped due to a congenital thyroid deficiency.

Korah Arnelle wrote:
Akrasjel Lanate wrote:

exception proves the rule

Technically, exceptions prove the exception. Just being a logic nerd on this, sorry. :)

You can make this go on forever but the basic point is that the way EVE is made fragments the majority and creates strong minority voting blocks. Thus even if the representation could be working as intended there would still be 20 -30 percent of the delegates representing 50 - 70 percent of the players.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2012-03-04 06:11:59 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

You can make this go on forever but the basic point is that the way EVE is made fragments the majority and creates strong minority voting blocks. Thus even if the representation could be working as intended there would still be 20 -30 percent of the delegates representing 50 - 70 percent of the players.

so just what the hell do you it is that the csm does anyway?

do you really think that eve is evenly divided by certain activities and the people that like each one?
or is this one of those things where you assume that as a highsec veldspar explorer a 'nullsec guy' could never effectively represent you because they dont understand the finer nuances of how absolutely terrible, boring, and worthless mining is? in which case get over it
Sir Marksalot
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#269 - 2012-03-04 06:14:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Marksalot
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

More people + more ISK in alliance - time needed to make ISK = larger propaganda machine.

ALT + Tab? Only have one screen? -.^

you dont need isk to have your voice heard you colossal dumbass

this is not a real life election with real life money being spent on real life people buying real life advertisements







edit:

for every doublepost i make mittens gives me a drake
Alavaria Fera
Imperial Shipment
#270 - 2012-03-04 08:56:49 UTC
Sir Marksalot wrote:
edit:

for every doublepost i make mittens gives me a drake

So you're posting on the forums to get in game benefits.

Sounds like a meta game to me Lol

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Jenshae Chiroptera
#271 - 2012-03-04 21:04:52 UTC
Yes, I only mine Veldspar in high sec. That good pirate standing? I must have found a secret mining station of theirs and those worm hole kill mails are fake because I mine them to death and would never be in another ship. Roll

However, this has nothing to do with me as a player. I am saying that the whole CSM is bad because it has players in it when it would be better run by GMs.

Vocal minorities destroy games and giving them a soap box is the worst thing a game company can do.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Killer Gandry
Fenghuang Corporation
#272 - 2012-03-04 21:33:41 UTC
End result ot the debate is that there are players who wish for an active "none of the above" option as to let CCP see howmany would actually vote that and take that into their calculations.
CSM candidates feel threatened?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#273 - 2012-03-07 15:46:28 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
End result ot the debate is that there are players who wish for an active "none of the above" option as to let CCP see howmany would actually vote that and take that into their calculations.
CSM candidates feel threatened?


Why is there so many "Like" with no "Dislike" options across the web? Games where any idiot need only apply time, grind and then be "uber"?

People do not handle criticism or failure well any more. They do not want challenges as they live sheltered little lives. Companies see ways to inflate the feelings and egos of their target market then cash in on that.

Just read the articles with quotes from after the Jita protests, "we were going from strength to strength and could not handle this set back well." (paraphrased) They had become complacent and shrouded in their belief of succeeding. "Just wait until you see this WiS stuff, it will blow you socks off!" Was there thought to contingencies? An awareness of divided interests? What if they had released some long asked for FiS changes at the same time? Do you think that there would have been more mollified people?

Do you really see CSM with all its bias being good coverage for the game or do you think like me that it is another Incarna blind spot of CCP's?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

SMT008
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#274 - 2012-03-07 16:33:51 UTC
Here's the list of CSM7 candidates :

SkipperMonkey : Not a bloc candidate
Riverini : Init, might be supported by part of Team Tech
Korvin : [BEST] Alliance. Never saw this dude, nor his alliance.
Two Step : Not a bloc candidate
Greene Lee : -A- candidate, definetly a bloc candidate.
Trebor : Not a bloc candidate.
Mu'ad Dhiib : Not a bloc candidate.
Prometheus Exenthal : Not a bloc candidate.
Draco Llasa : Supported by Init, might be a bloc candidate.
Xenuria : ****** with a hat, not a bloc candidate.
Corebloodbrothers : not a bloc candidate.
Tiger Would : Not a bloc candidate.
Sollana : Not a bloc candidate (CVA is not a power bloc)
Lyris Nairn : Definetly a bloc candidate, but also the Sky Captain of My Heart.
Dovinian : Bloc candidate from TEST.
Mintrolio : Not a bloc candidate.
Alekseyev Karrde : Not a bloc candidate.
Vincent Athena : Not a bloc candidate.
PsychoBitch : Not a bloc candidate.
The Mittani : Definetly a bloc candidate from GSF. Also a chairman4life.
Mike Azariah : Not a bloc candidate.
Meissa Anunthiel : Not a bloc candidate.
Roc Wieler : Not a bloc candidate.
Darius III : Not a bloc candidate. His bloc have been...savagely ripped to pieces.
leboe : Not really a bloc candidate.
Issler Dainze : Not a bloc candidate.
Skye Aurorae : Not a bloc candidate.
UAxDEATH : Bloc candidate.
Kelduum Revaan : Not a bloc candidate.
T'amber Anomandari Demaleon : Not a bloc candidate.
Fon Revedhort : I don't think Darkside is in any powerbloc ? So...Not a bloc candidate.
michael boltonIII : bloc candidate from TEST.
Blake Armitage : Not a bloc candidate.
Voloses : Bloc candidate.
StarConquer212 : Not a bloc candidate.
Elise Randolph : Bloc candidate.
Seleene : Bloc candidate.
Blackberry Bold : Not a bloc candidate.
Hans Jagerblitzen : Not a bloc candidate.
Akirei Scytale : Bloc candidate.

That's 12 bloc candidates. Some of them are even purely comical.

28 Non-bloc candidates.

And you really think that CCP should add a "None of the candidates suit my needs" button ? I mean...If there were like 10 candidates or 15. But no. If you don't want to vote for a bloc candidate, you still have 28 possibilities. Isn't that enough ?

Skye Aurorae
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#275 - 2012-03-07 16:39:02 UTC
The obvious way to abstain is to vote for a candidate that legally is denied a place on the ballot - there's a 7 year old girl standing, think of what a statement that would make.

Skye Aurora is a 7 year old Girl Who Wants to be on the CSM! Unfortunately, the Lawyers say you have to be 21 - oh well.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#276 - 2012-03-07 16:53:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
SMT008 wrote:
Here's the list of CSM7 candidates :

And you really think that CCP should add a "None of the candidates suit my needs" button ? I mean...If there were like 10 candidates or 15. But no. If you don't want to vote for a bloc candidate, you still have 28 possibilities. Isn't that enough ?



Realistically, who is going to win? Regardless of that, it does not matter how benign the candidate is, I believe this work is not suitable for any players.

Skye Aurorae wrote:
The obvious way to abstain is to vote for a candidate that legally is denied a place on the ballot - there's a 7 year old girl standing, think of what a statement that would make.

I have already taken the only option available to me and actively abstained.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#277 - 2012-03-07 16:54:14 UTC
Killer Gandry wrote:
End result ot the debate is that there are players who wish for an active "none of the above" option as to let CCP see howmany would actually vote that and take that into their calculations.
CSM candidates feel threatened?


What makes you think CCP cares about that information?

Think about it - it's extremely easy to participate in this whole system. Voting is beyond simple, you have 14 days to do it on any number of accounts you have that qualify. Running is almost as easy, as the only two barriers of entry are "are you 21?" and "can you legally travel to Iceland?".

A vote of "none of the above" is really saying "I'm too lazy to run, too lazy to solicit any of the 28 certified candidates from just about every corner of the galaxy, but certainly not too lazy to whine about it". How valuable is any of that to CCP at the end of the day?

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Jenshae Chiroptera
#278 - 2012-03-07 16:56:37 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:

A vote of "none of the above" is really saying "I'm too lazy to run, too lazy to solicit any of the 28 certified candidates from just about every corner of the galaxy, but certainly not too lazy to whine about it". How valuable is any of that to CCP at the end of the day?



No. I believe that all players in CSM capacity is bad for EVE, self included.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Snow Axe
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#279 - 2012-03-07 16:59:54 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Snow Axe wrote:

A vote of "none of the above" is really saying "I'm too lazy to run, too lazy to solicit any of the 28 certified candidates from just about every corner of the galaxy, but certainly not too lazy to whine about it". How valuable is any of that to CCP at the end of the day?



No. I believe that all players in CSM capacity is bad for EVE, self included.


Good for you. CCP clearly doesn't, hence the CSM existing. So we're right back to the "why do you think they care about your opinion?" point.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["

Jenshae Chiroptera
#280 - 2012-03-07 17:02:34 UTC
Snow Axe wrote:

Good for you. CCP clearly doesn't, hence the CSM existing. So we're right back to the "why do you think they care about your opinion?" point.


"Why do you think they care about anyone's opinion?"

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.