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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

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Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1901 - 2015-03-04 23:37:07 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

i guess if they are standing still, sure

if you rig for misl distance you are getting about 125km range on a cerb with a flight time of 12s

an interceptor orbiting at 120km covers 48 km in this time

120 + 48 > 125


They cut corners, that only applies if they inty is straight lining away.

Alternatively, use an orth with 20+km/s light missiles.

a misl range rigged orthrus only has an engagement envelope of 100km, and that is while further gimping the tank to include the sensor booster needed to lock that far

an interceptor also beats a heated orthrus's speed by a good kilometer a second or so
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1902 - 2015-03-04 23:37:44 UTC
Devi Loches wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Violent Morgana wrote:
So I have gang of 20 ceptors, fit for extreme speed (20km/s for example and 150km locking range) and t2 Entosis Link. Who/What can stop my gang from reinforcing the whole region? The module needs to either disable any prop mods or make the ship stationary like siege does. That will give you the fights you are trying to force.

Also whats up with this prime time? Should we only have USTZ alliance, EUTZ alliance etc in huge blocks focused on very specific 4hour window in time?

20 (or fewer) Kitsunes.

So thats 2bil in intys countered by 400mil in ewar frigs.


So far this seems like the only reasonable counter to the trollceptors I've seen. It keeps the risks of defense roughly equal to that of the attackers. (Not the insanely expensive interceptors mentioned above, just the basic interceptors that would be common. Interceptor fleets vs ewar fleets.)


And as I've said "basic" interceptors will die in a fire to missile ships. Even the "speed" ones will die.

At 100m+ per SHIP at the death rate, they'll quickly stop becoming "throwaway".
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1903 - 2015-03-04 23:37:55 UTC
Devi Loches wrote:
So far this seems like the only reasonable counter to the trollceptors I've seen. It keeps the risks of defense roughly equal to that of the attackers. (Not the insanely expensive interceptors mentioned above, just the basic interceptors that would be common. Interceptor fleets vs ewar fleets.)

The T2 module is 100m iirc so either the inties are orbitting within easy web scram range with the T1 version, or they cost 100m+

Which is also gonna be hilarious if they hit a smartbomb camp on the way out

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1904 - 2015-03-04 23:38:40 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

i guess if they are standing still, sure

if you rig for misl distance you are getting about 125km range on a cerb with a flight time of 12s

an interceptor orbiting at 120km covers 48 km in this time

120 + 48 > 125


They cut corners, that only applies if they inty is straight lining away.

Alternatively, use an orth with 20+km/s light missiles.

a misl range rigged orthrus only has an engagement envelope of 100km, and that is while further gimping the tank to include the sensor booster needed to lock that far

an interceptor also beats a heated orthrus's speed by a good kilometer a second or so



And the trollceptor will kill it, right?

Or not.

People are talking about snakes and quafe, what is a missile speed implant against that?
Gevlin
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1905 - 2015-03-04 23:38:59 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Finally caught up with the thread. :)

... and try to leave me with a reasonable number of posts to catch up on in the morning ok? Big smile


You so know that will never happen!

Someday I will have the time to play. For now it is mining afk in High sec. In Cheap ships
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#1906 - 2015-03-04 23:40:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Finally caught up with the thread. :)
Slacker, I was already across the finish line....Lol

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1907 - 2015-03-04 23:40:46 UTC
ISD Ezwal wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Finally caught up with the thread. :)
Slacker, I was already across the finish line....Lol



Red Queen scenario.....
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1908 - 2015-03-04 23:42:39 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
I'm gonna call it a night, but expect some of the first issue breakout threads tomorrow (we'll link to them from this thread) and try to leave me with a reasonable number of posts to catch up on in the morning ok? Big smile

yay blogs \o/
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1909 - 2015-03-04 23:42:40 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:
Devi Loches wrote:
So far this seems like the only reasonable counter to the trollceptors I've seen. It keeps the risks of defense roughly equal to that of the attackers. (Not the insanely expensive interceptors mentioned above, just the basic interceptors that would be common. Interceptor fleets vs ewar fleets.)

The T2 module is 100m iirc so either the inties are orbitting within easy web scram range with the T1 version, or they cost 100m+

Which is also gonna be hilarious if they hit a smartbomb camp on the way out


While 100mil is not exactly chump change, large coalitions have already shown that they have isk to throw at cap ship SRP. The cost might keep small corps and alliances from doing this, but not the large ones. They can replace 20 of these interceptors compared to 1 dread.
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1910 - 2015-03-04 23:44:22 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Devi Loches wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Violent Morgana wrote:
So I have gang of 20 ceptors, fit for extreme speed (20km/s for example and 150km locking range) and t2 Entosis Link. Who/What can stop my gang from reinforcing the whole region? The module needs to either disable any prop mods or make the ship stationary like siege does. That will give you the fights you are trying to force.

Also whats up with this prime time? Should we only have USTZ alliance, EUTZ alliance etc in huge blocks focused on very specific 4hour window in time?

20 (or fewer) Kitsunes.

So thats 2bil in intys countered by 400mil in ewar frigs.


So far this seems like the only reasonable counter to the trollceptors I've seen. It keeps the risks of defense roughly equal to that of the attackers. (Not the insanely expensive interceptors mentioned above, just the basic interceptors that would be common. Interceptor fleets vs ewar fleets.)


And as I've said "basic" interceptors will die in a fire to missile ships. Even the "speed" ones will die.

At 100m+ per SHIP at the death rate, they'll quickly stop becoming "throwaway".


And so people actually start using defender missiles to protect themselves from the ones they can't outrun.
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#1911 - 2015-03-04 23:44:45 UTC
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

i guess if they are standing still, sure

if you rig for misl distance you are getting about 125km range on a cerb with a flight time of 12s

an interceptor orbiting at 120km covers 48 km in this time

120 + 48 > 125


They cut corners, that only applies if they inty is straight lining away.

Alternatively, use an orth with 20+km/s light missiles.

a misl range rigged orthrus only has an engagement envelope of 100km, and that is while further gimping the tank to include the sensor booster needed to lock that far

an interceptor also beats a heated orthrus's speed by a good kilometer a second or so



And the trollceptor will kill it, right?

Or not.

People are talking about snakes and quafe, what is a missile speed implant against that?

it doesn't have to beat the orthrus, just not die to it until the artosis link finishes the job

also i do like that you are having to use a 280m ship and 750m of implants to kill a 20m frig with an 80m module
Galphii
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#1912 - 2015-03-04 23:46:03 UTC
An interesting system with a few flaws which, if addressed, would make it worth trying on TQ.

* Reduce the range on the T2 entosis link to 50km. You want to bring ships in at a reasonable range for a fight to happen, and not just have a bunch of inty's circling the target at max range.

* Consider the minimum PG requirements of the entosis module to require a battlecruiser or above to use, again, to force actual fights instead of kiting/trolling crap.

* Perhaps the entosis module also prevents propulsion mods from activating? Just a thought.

* It might be more interesting to use the hacking minigame in some fashion instead of adding a 'sov laser'.

"Wow, that internet argument completely changed my fundamental belief system," said no one, ever.
Aryth
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1913 - 2015-03-04 23:47:06 UTC
Devi Loches wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:
Violent Morgana wrote:
So I have gang of 20 ceptors, fit for extreme speed (20km/s for example and 150km locking range) and t2 Entosis Link. Who/What can stop my gang from reinforcing the whole region? The module needs to either disable any prop mods or make the ship stationary like siege does. That will give you the fights you are trying to force.

Also whats up with this prime time? Should we only have USTZ alliance, EUTZ alliance etc in huge blocks focused on very specific 4hour window in time?

20 (or fewer) Kitsunes.

So thats 2bil in intys countered by 400mil in ewar frigs.


So far this seems like the only reasonable counter to the trollceptors I've seen. It keeps the risks of defense roughly equal to that of the attackers. (Not the insanely expensive interceptors mentioned above, just the basic interceptors that would be common. Interceptor fleets vs ewar fleets.)


The main issue is not the ISK vs ISK. It is the huge imbalance of afk cloaking attacker time vs defender vigilance. Because the system quickly spirals into massive consequences with minimal time investment on the part of attackers it will result in a horribly lopsided mechanic.

For example, lets say blackops/reavers park 20-50 dudes afk cloaking in a region and their only goal is to flip/kill things the moment people aren't looking. So your choice as a defender is to have hyper vigilance every day during your period across all assets or suffer massive consequences. I doubt how many people realize how bad IHuBs are to deal with.

The only investment on an attackers part is an alt and some brief attention spans when they feel like watching. The investment on the defenders part is a period of hyper vigilance across every system they own. Multiply this by the attackers being able to do this across all of null at random and you see the problem. If you tell people they can lock dudes out of their capital with a single real fight then lawl. Why would anyone store any amount of material in a null station. Move to NPC null or a lowsec border system.

This is going to heavily incentivize ice-bergging again. The timers basically need to preserve 2-3 fights before huge consequences (freeport) and have a FAR bigger bonus to high indexes. A 5/5 index system should take at least 1 hour if not 2. At least until someone fixes freaking industry indexes god.

Leader of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal.

Creator of Burn Jita

Vile Rat: You're the greatest sociopath that has ever played eve.
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1914 - 2015-03-04 23:48:14 UTC
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

i guess if they are standing still, sure

if you rig for misl distance you are getting about 125km range on a cerb with a flight time of 12s

an interceptor orbiting at 120km covers 48 km in this time

120 + 48 > 125


They cut corners, that only applies if they inty is straight lining away.

Alternatively, use an orth with 20+km/s light missiles.

a misl range rigged orthrus only has an engagement envelope of 100km, and that is while further gimping the tank to include the sensor booster needed to lock that far

an interceptor also beats a heated orthrus's speed by a good kilometer a second or so



And the trollceptor will kill it, right?

Or not.

People are talking about snakes and quafe, what is a missile speed implant against that?

it doesn't have to beat the orthrus, just not die to it until the artosis link finishes the job

also i do like that you are having to use a 280m ship and 750m of implants to kill a 20m frig with an 80m module



Or I could use a cheapass cruiser and block the link....


Stop the melodrama. Interceptors threaten sprawling, indefensible empires. NOTHING MORE.

Stop being bad, stop derailing with FUD about "trollceptors" and maybe we can all get a decent future.


These phantom interceptors threats are nothing short of a nonsense if you live in your space.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1915 - 2015-03-04 23:49:08 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
Alp Khan wrote:
Mr Omniblivion wrote:
Here is a suggestion: CCP needs to actually listen to the nullsec CSM representatives (they are largely disregarding input from CSM reps with Sov changes). Or hire someone that is well versed in nullsec to actually work at CCP.


Indeed, they should. I don't think we can name any other game on MMO market that has a developer team with a chronic inability to understand it's player driven dynamics and narratives.

Two things...

First, CSM..I am yet to actually see a swath of stories this time around on how the CSM wasn't consulted or ignored on the proposed changes. In leiu of that we must assume then the bulk of the CSM gave nodding approval to these changes, and their silence now is approval after the fact (or pansied waiting to see which way popular vote blows first...).

Second, CCP obviously isn't trying to ruin the game. They are perhaps just trying to ruin your game.


Lol. I like this

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Devi Loches
Rational Chaos Inc.
Brave Collective
#1916 - 2015-03-04 23:49:39 UTC
Galphii wrote:
An interesting system with a few flaws which, if addressed, would make it worth trying on TQ.

* Reduce the range on the T2 entosis link to 50km. You want to bring ships in at a reasonable range for a fight to happen, and not just have a bunch of inty's circling the target at max range.

* Consider the minimum PG requirements of the entosis module to require a battlecruiser or above to use, again, to force actual fights instead of kiting/trolling crap.

* Perhaps the entosis module also prevents propulsion mods from activating? Just a thought.

* It might be more interesting to use the hacking minigame in some fashion instead of adding a 'sov laser'.


Yes

Yes, though personally I'd say cruisers

Yes, or a speed penalty like cloaking devices

No, sov is a game already, you don't need to 'hack' sov. It should be a sign of brute force.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#1917 - 2015-03-04 23:50:28 UTC
afkalt wrote:
These phantom interceptors threats are nothing short of a nonsense if you live in your space.

Precisely, it's no surprise that they're being hyped up as gamebreaking by TMC and on this thread - it's because goons don't want them to threaten their sprawl and want to get rid of them now.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1918 - 2015-03-04 23:52:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:
afkalt wrote:
Promiscuous Female wrote:

i guess if they are standing still, sure

if you rig for misl distance you are getting about 125km range on a cerb with a flight time of 12s

an interceptor orbiting at 120km covers 48 km in this time

120 + 48 > 125


They cut corners, that only applies if they inty is straight lining away.

Alternatively, use an orth with 20+km/s light missiles.

a misl range rigged orthrus only has an engagement envelope of 100km, and that is while further gimping the tank to include the sensor booster needed to lock that far

an interceptor also beats a heated orthrus's speed by a good kilometer a second or so



And the trollceptor will kill it, right?

Or not.

People are talking about snakes and quafe, what is a missile speed implant against that?

it doesn't have to beat the orthrus, just not die to it until the artosis link finishes the job

also i do like that you are having to use a 280m ship and 750m of implants to kill a 20m frig with an 80m module

1 keres with its own link, damp them down back to normal target range and then bring in a cheap caracal.

isk balanced enough?
Uncle Shrimpa
Lap Dancers
Brothers of Tangra
#1919 - 2015-03-04 23:52:42 UTC
Aryth wrote:

This is going to heavily incentivize ice-bergging again. The timers basically need to preserve 2-3 fights before huge consequences (freeport) and have a FAR bigger bonus to high indexes. A 5/5 index system should take at least 1 hour if not 2. At least until someone fixes freaking industry indexes god.



That fact that it takes 50 hulks several hours a day to maintain level 5 index vs a few ratter a couples hours a day to maintain military index is so far into the stupid category it isn't funny

That and you spent how many months revamping Industry, then screwed it up by removing teams with NO restitution, NOW you plan on implementing a sov mechanic based on occupancy and don't take into account ANY industry that goes on in a system.

So basically, shoot red X's or you are ****

CCP Greyscale -Yup, we have data on what happens currently, but we're expecting those use patterns to change substantially when this release. There's a degree of "suck it and see" happening here :)
Kochab Itinen
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1920 - 2015-03-04 23:53:35 UTC
With this revamp, small scale ships will be promoted in null sec. To be honest, I don't want a copy-paste of the low-sec factionnal warfare in null sec.

RIP capital ships ?