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Dev blog: Politics by Other Means: Sovereignty Phase Two

First post First post First post
Author
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2201 - 2015-03-05 10:58:56 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tl;dr work to achieve great things, not to stop them.


For the past 11 years now, CCP has fomented a community and an environment where the incentives are all pointing toward basically organizing into the biggest street gang you can, and then being an absolute jackass to everyone who's not in your gang.

The sad truth is, as much as many of us want better, we recognize that 'better' is not the behavior CCP has trained the EVE playerbase to strive toward, but rather 'more ruthless' and 'more sadistic'. I mean, look, even the people who identify as carebears, who live in highsec, who like to claim they're champions of the little guy, openly gloat and get off on 'tears'. They celebrate others' misery and pain.

And those are the angels of our community.

Sometimes, working to achieve great things has to take the form of looking for all the ways human nature can and will twist what's being offered, and telling the guy next to you at the bar what amounts to 'for the love of god, don't let me drive home unless I sober up'.
Lord TGR
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2202 - 2015-03-05 11:00:42 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Vigilanta wrote:
[
If a whole constellation comes out of rf in the same day and you want to win a majority of the timers this is exactly what will happen, and it unironically wont be very fun because fighting wont be the obejctive capturing as many nodes as fast as possible will be, then you may fight over the last few, but by that time 2 hours have passed and half of each fleet is ready to log. I mean im all for small gang but i want sov warfare to actualyly be warfare between medium sized fleets, not warfare between 10 man gangs all rushing ot caputre nodes.

So what we end up with here is sov warfare like old days - He with the most pos's takes sov, except the pos's have become nodes.
Talk about recycling bad ideas.

- - - - - - - - -
Constellation based sov warfare is a terribly bad idea no matter what objectives are put in place.
If these changes are meant to open up opportunities for smaller groups to take and hold sov, making it constellation based rules out most smaller groups from taking or holding sov.

- - - - - - - - -
Quote:
Our realistic goal for the new Sovereignty system is that a very small group of players in virtually any ship types should be able to completely conquer an undefended system with a few ~10-30 minute sessions spread across a few days.
Is only realistic as long as there isn't a large group within range to hammer the small group into giving up on trying to take sov.
Day 1, 25 mins, went well, got scouted but no attackers.
Day 2, 8 mins in 100 man fleet arrives
Day 3, start again, no or little opposition
Day 4, large fleet arrives
Day 5, screw it not wasting more time on a lose lose position

There exists no system which can be made which'll protect a smaller entity 100% from a bigger entity, because unless you put hard caps on something (which means they'll just bring more powerful toys than the little guy and the little guy's still ******), the bigger entity will use the mechanics to their advantage.

And even if you add a mechanic which says that the smaller the entity on field, the more poweful it gets, the bigger entity'll still faceroll the smaller one, as the bigger one can then be in more places at once with the "optimum fleet setup" than the smaller entity can.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#2203 - 2015-03-05 11:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Arrendis wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:
Given EVE players abilities to use the mechanics differently than ccp envisioned there can be no foolproof system. But more risktaking without huge consequences and burning out alliance doers is a huge step in the right direction. It is also quite different to hold a small area, like a constellation, in comparison to holding multiple regions. This alone would reduce the stress levels of alliance leadership and burnout factor for us groups that dont have multiple redundancies in alliance leadership.


See, the reason we - and by 'we', I don't just mean Goons, I mean the majority of folks from the blocs - are focusing on the griefer angle is: we know what we'll do with this kind of tool available to us. Just in the CFC, we've got a SIG already devoted to doing this sort of thing, and this will just make it easier to go and make sure that smaller, less organized alliances don't hold sov. We won't actually take the systems - that would involve dropping a TCU and IHUB ourselves, after all... but how many of these less-organized alliances are going to put up with the freighter (not jump freighter) hauling needed if we're consistently burning down ihubs as fast as they drop them?

Because, you know, we'll do that kind of thing. We're jerks like that. Will we do it to every small alliance every day? Doubtful. But at the same time, if the intention for this system is to make things fun, and actually invigorate nullsec into more conflict between smaller blocs, then doesn't it behoove the devs to actually have an idea of how the blocs operate?

Because they don't. They don't have any idea of the levels of organization present in even HERO, and HERO organizes everything openly, on reddit. I wouldn't be at all surprised to find out that the CFC has more metrics and data collection going on about New Eden than CCP itself does. I don't think for a moment that we intend to have that kind of level of OCD going on, but you know, that's just how dysfunctional a lot of us are.

And we've been generally proven right on things like this. Sentry drone assist, jump fatigue for haulers, the continuing need for nerfs to the Ishtar, etc, etc.

See, we legitimately want a more interesting, more vibrant, more fun nullsec. We live here, and let's face it, ratting is about as exciting as watching a test pattern. If it's more fun, then we're having more fun. We like fun. It's fun. So when we see CCP saying 'we want to make null more interesting and fluid, with more small actors', we like the idea... but we're wary of the execution. Especially when it comes in a form that people all around null are looking at and saying 'this is really only going to come to griefing. This won't generate fights like you think it will'.

We know what we'll do with this. And we're bastards enough to know that even if we think that what we'll do with it shouldn't be allowed... we'll do it anyway, because if we don't, someone else will do it to us. They'll probably do it to us either way, really.

So think about this: Most of the people telling you what horrible things we'll do? They're regular line members of the various blocs. The really dangerous, evil, sadistic bastards who come up with our true skullduggeries are likely plotting things far, far worse. If we're focusing on the griefer aspect of this a bit more than you think we should? It's not because we like being the boogeyman. It's because we want a good game to play, but we also know that if CCP hands us a pack of smokes and a lighter, we might smoke some of them... but we're also likely to melt the filters into a fiberglass shiv, aimed for your kidneys.

Don't let us. Don't give us the tools to be worse than we already are. Because we will. And we'll enjoy it, for as long as CCP lets us ride that mechanic into the ground. And for every voice saying 'you'll get bored of being jackasses and start behaving rationally', I can only ask: After all these years, when exactly are we, the assembled bastards and griefers throughout nullsec, supposed to get bored of being jackasses?


You are assuming that people don't know what the Goons are like, we do, which is why the first step is to plant a TCU next to a POS and troll you back, we know you don't want to hold that sov. And as the siphons proved you do get bored, and of course many people will be doing it to you, so many people from hisec could for example get into an interceptor and do this to get back at you, many won't but some might.

EDIT: And for good measure I don't ever expect to be able to put an IHUB in, but that is not the point is it...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

AngeDeMort
CyberMachine
#2204 - 2015-03-05 11:01:12 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Of course player feedback is an incredibly valuable resource,


Except that isn't what you said.

What you said was to deride anyone who has a suggestion. What you said was "that ship has sailed", when the whole point of this thread existing, according to a literal dev, is to demonstrate that it has not.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal..


+1
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2205 - 2015-03-05 11:03:11 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Of course player feedback is an incredibly valuable resource,


Except that isn't what you said.

What you said was to deride anyone who has a suggestion. What you said was "that ship has sailed", when the whole point of this thread existing, according to a literal dev, is to demonstrate that it has not.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.



Kaarous, whilst I try to reply to you politely, please do not make things up and put words into my mouth that were not said. Change will occur, and that is certain. How the change plays out in the following months, we will see. But in a system based around active occupancy, removing the tools, or neutering those that enable that, is not going to work too well is it? But you of course know this. Which is why you wish to remove the tools.

But it is a free forum, you are free to campaign for a nullsec that is as stagnant as currently, with a different name. You know your own motivations and goals, and we all can draw our own conclusions as to the validity of your posts. No one needs pointers or guidance for that.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Dark Spite
Ascendance
Goonswarm Federation
#2206 - 2015-03-05 11:05:17 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Dark Spite wrote:
Given EVE players abilities to use the mechanics differently than ccp envisioned there can be no foolproof system. But more risktaking without huge consequences and burning out alliance doers is a huge step in the right direction. It is also quite different to hold a small area, like a constellation, in comparison to holding multiple regions. This alone would reduce the stress levels of alliance leadership and burnout factor for us groups that dont have multiple redundancies in alliance leadership.



Don't let us. Don't give us the tools to be worse than we already are. Because we will. And we'll enjoy it, for as long as CCP lets us ride that mechanic into the ground. And for every voice saying 'you'll get bored of being jackasses and start behaving rationally', I can only ask: After all these years, when exactly are we, the assembled bastards and griefers throughout nullsec, supposed to get bored of being jackasses?


I know you will Big smile And thats fair enough imo. Different folks different playstyles. Its not worse than afk camping or still broken bomber power. But with a 4 hour window that means you will have to choose. Sucks to be the one you choose that day or period of time. But we are herd people, so lots of activity draws all of us like bees (yes, I know).

What I am much more concerned about is the ability to use the entosis module to disable station services at any given time. Its possible to do this today by just using a lot of dps, but then you have to field a larger fleet in order to not get structure-shooting-fatigue syndrome. Having one ship go into a system/constellation where all the players are US timezone and singly take out all station services in a very short timespan is pretty broken.

SBU's being removed is \o/ on the other hand. After Phoebe there have been some real interesting emerging gameplay like Gorgon Empire opening their region to other groups without going amarr victor and kos lists (who isnt on KOS list now btw). There is definitely need for tuning in this system, but the sov aspect is the least important in what 1 module can achieve.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#2207 - 2015-03-05 11:09:30 UTC  |  Edited by: ISD Ezwal
epicurus ataraxia wrote:

Kaarous, whilst I try to reply to you politely, please do not make things up and put words into my mouth that were not said.


I directly quoted you.

*Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.


Quote:
But in a system based around active occupancy, removing the tools, or neutering those that enable that, is not going to work too well is it? But you of course know this. Which is why you wish to remove the tools.


We're not talking about neutering, *Snip* Please refrain from personal attacks. ISD Ezwal.

This is the conceptualization phase. This is where we have the discussion as to whether or not the overpowered interceptor hulls, or any frigate, get access to this.

Stop trying to squash the discussion that is this thread's literal intent just because you'd rather crow about your theoretical philosophical victory.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2208 - 2015-03-05 11:09:40 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
You are assuming that people don't know what the Goons are like, we do, which is why the first step is to plant a TCU next to a POS and troll you back, we know you don't want to hold that sov. And as the siphons proved you do get bored, and of course many people will be doing it to you, so many people from hisec could for example get into an interceptor and do this to get back at you, many won't but some might.

EDIT: And for good measure I don't ever expect to be able to put an IHUB in, but that is not the point is it...


Well, putting the ihub in is what's going to make your space reasonably profitable. You might also want a station at some point.

And see, you're looking at Goons. I wasn't. I'm looking at all of us. You think Pizza's going to not hit everyone they can with this? You think Black Legion won't? Or PL? You think Massadeth's gonna just mess with the CFC? Or that the Southeast won't be a wretched patchwork of N3 and the Russians trying to harass one another now that the supercapital blobs won't stop RUS?

We are not nice people. And honestly, we don't much care who we're not nice to.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#2209 - 2015-03-05 11:11:00 UTC
Lord TGR wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Vigilanta wrote:
[
If a whole constellation comes out of rf in the same day and you want to win a majority of the timers this is exactly what will happen, and it unironically wont be very fun because fighting wont be the obejctive capturing as many nodes as fast as possible will be, then you may fight over the last few, but by that time 2 hours have passed and half of each fleet is ready to log. I mean im all for small gang but i want sov warfare to actualyly be warfare between medium sized fleets, not warfare between 10 man gangs all rushing ot caputre nodes.

So what we end up with here is sov warfare like old days - He with the most pos's takes sov, except the pos's have become nodes.
Talk about recycling bad ideas.

- - - - - - - - -
Constellation based sov warfare is a terribly bad idea no matter what objectives are put in place.
If these changes are meant to open up opportunities for smaller groups to take and hold sov, making it constellation based rules out most smaller groups from taking or holding sov.

- - - - - - - - -
Quote:
Our realistic goal for the new Sovereignty system is that a very small group of players in virtually any ship types should be able to completely conquer an undefended system with a few ~10-30 minute sessions spread across a few days.
Is only realistic as long as there isn't a large group within range to hammer the small group into giving up on trying to take sov.
Day 1, 25 mins, went well, got scouted but no attackers.
Day 2, 8 mins in 100 man fleet arrives
Day 3, start again, no or little opposition
Day 4, large fleet arrives
Day 5, screw it not wasting more time on a lose lose position

There exists no system which can be made which'll protect a smaller entity 100% from a bigger entity, because unless you put hard caps on something (which means they'll just bring more powerful toys than the little guy and the little guy's still ******), the bigger entity will use the mechanics to their advantage.

And even if you add a mechanic which says that the smaller the entity on field, the more poweful it gets, the bigger entity'll still faceroll the smaller one, as the bigger one can then be in more places at once with the "optimum fleet setup" than the smaller entity can.

I completely agree with you.. I just hope CCP can see the problem too.
Small groups will only ever take and hold sov at the behest of the controlling large coalitions.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

AngeDeMort
CyberMachine
#2210 - 2015-03-05 11:11:28 UTC
afkalt wrote:
AngeDeMort wrote:
Black Ambulance wrote:
AngeDeMort wrote:
AttentionAttentionAttention

Please consider a minimum ship-size for this new module.. Maybe cruiser or battle-cruiser and upwards..? Maybe only HACs and upwards? Maybe a new cruiser and upwards? P But please keep low-fitting requirements, so as not to gimp a pvp fit..

Please do not allow these trollceptors to exist.

These changes look fantastic!

Thanks for your time..

Eve IS the best game. Always was, always will be. Cool

xx

AttentionAttentionAttentionPirate



NO WAY , Ceptors are fine , if you can't counter them , move back to jita or new caldari !

Adopt or die , I want to fit that mod to my ibis too.



Your ability to counter a troll fit with a troll fit of your own, in numbers, is not what is being sought here.. It is content and gameplay...
Time-wasting, while it may float some peoples boats, is not really, I don't believe, something CCP wants, necessarily. By having a minumum ship-size fitting requirement the probability of actually engaging in combat/content increases...
With trollceptors, the concept is NOT to engage in combat but rather in griefing-type activities! Smile You wanting to fit one to your ibis says a lot... Oops
So, hopefully, it is not necessarily "no way.."



At a 100m a pop, trollfits are going to get old fast. Lose 20, that's a carrier hull right there.

I repeat, the only people with anything to fear here are people who do not live in their own space in their OWN prime time. It's not like you're going to get ninja hit whilst you're all sleeping for goodness sakes.


But you are, m8.
You're going to have tools come in, system to system and give you a factor times more work fixing it than them causing it...
All these folk saying, I'll just undock my sniper and blat them are b#&lshitters! They'll do that if they've got superiority and eyes everywhere but not if they're logged on in sys alone... Even if they log on alts to scout it before engaging.. the timer has flipped (you have lots of work to do....).. If they undock a combat ship, they have to warp to site (assuming off scan) and then see an uncatchable inty flitting around... They then warp back to get another ship... timer has flipped...
I don't know mate, but all this hot-air bravado does nothing to get to the bottom of things...
The goons are saying they'll do it to show it's a flawed mechanic and even if it that means they're secretly afraid of it being done to them (which is a good reason to condone it), it's still annoying grief-type game play... Stamp it out! Blink
Papa Digger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2211 - 2015-03-05 11:12:34 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
Don't let us. Don't give us the tools to be worse than we already are. Because we will. And we'll enjoy it, for as long as CCP lets us ride that mechanic into the ground. And for every voice saying 'you'll get bored of being jackasses and start behaving rationally', I can only ask: After all these years, when exactly are we, the assembled bastards and griefers throughout nullsec, supposed to get bored of being jackasses?

I think you'll get bored to alarmclocking to grief euro timers every 2 days.. emm, in 1-2 weeks. :)

epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#2212 - 2015-03-05 11:13:17 UTC
Arrendis wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tl;dr work to achieve great things, not to stop them.


For the past 11 years now, CCP has fomented a community and an environment where the incentives are all pointing toward basically organizing into the biggest street gang you can, and then being an absolute jackass to everyone who's not in your gang.

The sad truth is, as much as many of us want better, we recognize that 'better' is not the behavior CCP has trained the EVE playerbase to strive toward, but rather 'more ruthless' and 'more sadistic'. I mean, look, even the people who identify as carebears, who live in highsec, who like to claim they're champions of the little guy, openly gloat and get off on 'tears'. They celebrate others' misery and pain.

And those are the angels of our community.

Sometimes, working to achieve great things has to take the form of looking for all the ways human nature can and will twist what's being offered, and telling the guy next to you at the bar what amounts to 'for the love of god, don't let me drive home unless I sober up'.

There is truth in what you say, but you may have noticed, a subtle change is occuring. CCP have moved away from promoting the "antisocial" behaviour, into a new path of giving us the tools to build our own universe and interactions, and seeing what we build.

Whilst short term the results may look the same, in reality, there is a change starting to ripple across, and I believe that the more extreme will begin to be shunned and isolated, by US, not by CCP and withering away to background noise.

Without the spotlight, and reviled by most, they lose the "oxygen" of attention and like spoilt toddlers, grow up. And become part of the community.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE

Chi'Nane T'Kal
Interminatus
#2213 - 2015-03-05 11:13:18 UTC
CCP_Fozzie, what i'd really like to know is the concept of acceptable group size this is aimed at for people to hold sov.

From the parameters given, the goal seems to be for sov holding alliances to control at a minimum a complete constellation and be able to frequently ship replacement sov structures into their territory. What's the minimum number of prime-time-active players you'd estimate necessary for that? 50? 100? 200?

Knowing the ballpark of player numbers you're aiming at would make it much easier to give constructive input.
Alex Boeing
Sturm.
Inferno .
#2214 - 2015-03-05 11:13:28 UTC

Since i've started playing EVE in august 2014 every patch was making my game more interesting, but this patch WILL BE THE GREATEST! I'm not joking. Please, release IT! Don't listen for those old players who are crying about it, this is just because of their inertia.

I'm living in nulls, I like claim wars, i like PVP, i dislike that enormous rent empires, those hours spended in atacks of Ihub or station. This will be the greatest patch ever. It will release unlimited opportunities in PVP tactics while defending or atacking a system, using the landscape of constellation, spies, week sides of enemy. I'm looking forward to see it very soon!

This is my first time i came to this Forum, and i came only to say this, because it is very important for me and a lot of new players whom i talked about this patch.
Anthar Thebess
#2215 - 2015-03-05 11:15:47 UTC
Potential holes in this sov capture module :
( using T2 Version of the module ~250km range)

1. I have T2 version , because of the sensor booster i can extend my lock range so i can use this module from 220km. What happens if i shut down one of my sensor boostes? Will module still cycles or shut down instantly.

2. I sit at 249 km from my target, i have max lock range and when something happens i fly away to leave max module range.
What will happen?

3. Someone is contesting station. System is cyno jammed. So i undock in my max tanked carrier and use module on a station.
They have 1 active module i have active module - will this make sov capture process pause or it will just slow down, as my module is working slower because of the ship i am using.


Simple suggestion.
Can phantasm have 1% bonus to module cycle per some cruiser level.
I just love idea where those spiked , mind controlling ships spawn around just to get your space.
So this small vile bonus to fly a ship made by mind controlling race.
"We come for you space and your people" Pirate
Currently :
- angel ships warp faster
- serpentis ships web
- guristas ships have elite drones
- sansha ships have ... spikes

At 40min timer using phantasm will save you 2minutes.
ISD Ezwal
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
#2216 - 2015-03-05 11:16:49 UTC
I have removed some rule breaking posts and those quoting them. As always I let some edge cases stay.
Please people, keep it on topic and above all civil!

The Rules:
4. Personal attacks are prohibited.

Commonly known as flaming, personal attacks are posts that are designed to personally berate or insult another forum user. Posts of this nature are not beneficial to the community spirit that CCP promote and as such they will not be tolerated.


5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

ISD Ezwal Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2217 - 2015-03-05 11:17:23 UTC
Papa Digger wrote:
Arrendis wrote:
Don't let us. Don't give us the tools to be worse than we already are. Because we will. And we'll enjoy it, for as long as CCP lets us ride that mechanic into the ground. And for every voice saying 'you'll get bored of being jackasses and start behaving rationally', I can only ask: After all these years, when exactly are we, the assembled bastards and griefers throughout nullsec, supposed to get bored of being jackasses?

I think you'll get bored to alarmclocking to grief euro timers every 2 days.. emm, in 1-2 weeks. :)



Really? What makes you say that? I just spent a month in Delve in a carrier doing nothing but functioning as a mobile supply depot for 40 other CFC guys living down there and fleeting up 23/7 just to produce timers.

And next time we deploy, I'll do it again.
Varg Krugar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#2218 - 2015-03-05 11:18:49 UTC
So Darkfall Unholy Wars has been, er, inspired by good pieces of game design from EVE for quite some time now, but I've never thought I'd see that happen the other way around (I'm also not entirely sure the capture mechanic from DFUW is the best piece of game design Aventurine came up with).

On that note, I'm slightly surprised that the Entosis Link does not require some sort of Fuel? Was that thrown out because of the possible runaway nature of capture events or to lower the bar for entry into "casual" Sov games even further?
Arrendis
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2219 - 2015-03-05 11:21:07 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
There is truth in what you say, but you may have noticed, a subtle change is occuring. CCP have moved away from promoting the "antisocial" behaviour, into a new path of giving us the tools to build our own universe and interactions, and seeing what we build.

Whilst short term the results may look the same, in reality, there is a change starting to ripple across, and I believe that the more extreme will begin to be shunned and isolated, by US, not by CCP and withering away to background noise.

Without the spotlight, and reviled by most, they lose the "oxygen" of attention and like spoilt toddlers, grow up. And become part of the community.


Unfortunately, I believe I have a dimmer view of human nature than you do. The lowest common denominator, the guttertrash, the grifters and scum... heck, the downright sociopathic. These are now, and always have been, the ones who are willing to be ruthless enough to get ahead in any community and any society, and they inevitably shape that society.

Eve has been, and continues to be, one of the best complex sociology experiments in the world. And it's still driven by predators.
Papa Digger
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2220 - 2015-03-05 11:21:45 UTC
Entos link activated "for defence" must work without "empty cycle". Or you haven't time to counter a station service attack by using your link (only killing attacker).