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Battleship Fights

Author
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2015-02-19 13:13:35 UTC
I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do.
Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare.
Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's.
Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE.
Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets?
I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is?
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#2 - 2015-02-19 13:24:21 UTC
I feel your pain Sad

At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay
Kestral Anneto
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2015-02-19 13:27:51 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
I feel your pain Sad

At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay


maybe battleships should have a point defense system, that would give the ship a chance of shooting the bomb before it detonates.
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#4 - 2015-02-19 13:35:54 UTC
I enjoy using battleships semi-regularly, particularly the Barghest.

In our corp Suddenly Barghest™ has become a thing. Why just jump into something simple to go do a lol-gank? Why not take billions of ISK worth of faction battleships instead and make it an event? So we do. Nothing like dying to a Barghest and Bhaalgorn while you're trying to run your relic site in your Heron or something.

Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly Barghest™ goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#5 - 2015-02-19 13:45:46 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:

Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly Barghest™ goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.


For some strange reason, people tend to get a little giddy when groups of Faction Battleships cruise around Big smile
Erica Dusette
Division 13
#6 - 2015-02-19 13:53:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Erica Dusette
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
Erica Dusette wrote:

Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly Barghest™ goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.


For some strange reason, people tend to get a little giddy when groups of Faction Battleships cruise around Big smile

See the sacrifice we make? Putting all that on the line is a glory to Bob, even more so if it all dies.

Just think of the positive Karma coming our way when eventually Suddenly Barghest™ goes down in a ball of holy fire.

An instance was just recently in fact. One of our new pilots spots a Drake doing sites next door. Call comes over comms "Dusette, need a Barghest to static". I was dead at the time, in cryo-stasis after shooting myself in the head during an extreme psyhotic episode, but that's another story. Suffice to say my sister Dani jumped into the Barghest and off she went.

Now our intrepid new pilot was a little naive and didn't bother to link the Drake's corp in fleet. And us being somewhat furious with bloodlust at the time didn't bother to ask ...

As it turned out, after landing on grid, the Drake bait belonged to La Division Bleue, one of the largest French wormhole PVP organizations around. Of course next thing you know all the things land on grid and it's Suddenly On for everyone and their grandmothers. Of course being worth nearly 3b, Suddenly Barghest™ quickly becomes primary, but my sister managed to get it out safely, returning with a Tengu plus another sister in her Stratios where we joined the others in murdering all the French folks in a classic gank-counter-gank-counter-counter-gank style scenario, followed by Foedus yelling at our scout for risking the Barghest by not checking the Drake's corp.

So really even when it goes bad it still goes good. For someone.

Jack Miton > you be nice or you're sleeping on the couch again!

Part-Time Wormhole Pirate Full-Time Supermodel

worмнole dιary + cнaracтer вιoѕвσss

Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Doomheim
#7 - 2015-02-19 14:34:39 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
I feel your pain Sad

At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay

+1

Also I don't see a compelling delta in DPS or EHP compared to T3's (or even HAC's), for the pain points that come with flying them..

Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective. What if...

HAC's 3.5 AU warp speed
T1 Cruisers 3.3 AU warp speed
BC's 3.1 AU warp speed
Faction BS's 3.0 AU warp speed
BS's 2.7 AU warp speed

Tweak that to taste, but you get the idea. Key is that front of the line ships should always be fun to fly, especially as EvE stares down the competitive barrel of more twitch-based space sims like Elite and SS. I totally get a delta in speeds needs to exist with fast tackle, but if you make an entire ship class not fun to fly anymore you have lost the plot.. Gimping tank or other rigging to use hyperspatials just to un-do that suckage is not the answer, base speeds need a rethink IMHO.

F
Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2015-02-19 14:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:

Let's not also forget with the recent warp changes BS"s just simply suck to fly now from a roaming perspective.


Actually, this is a very good point, and it's also worth mentioning that this has only been compounded by the Power projection nerfs. With Jump Bridges and Titan Bridges getting swept up with the Power Projection changes, its made subcap fleets a lot less manouverable, and of course this is going to hit the slowest moving subcaps the hardest. If you want to go somewhere, doing it in Battleships is just an exercise in self-harm.
Elenahina
No.Mercy
Triumvirate.
#9 - 2015-02-19 15:16:15 UTC
At this point, the only point a battleship really serves is to bash on structures you can't reach with capitals.

And to bump freighters. Never forget the freighter bumping.

Eve is like an addiction; you can't quit it until it quits you. Also, iderno

Chainsaw Plankton
FaDoyToy
#10 - 2015-02-19 15:41:14 UTC
an orca warps as fast as a t1 battleship.... A BLOODY ORCA! I was going to do a BS roam, then I went like 2 jumps and just said no. maybe I should set up an ascendancy clone for lowsec BS fun?

also fighters and fighter bombers hit battleships rather well, so BS are vulnerable to bombers and caps. In lowsec bombers are very weak vs BS, but many parts of lowsec are rather well connected to each other making a hotdrop a real possibility. You will probably be able to run a BS for a while, but once people see you often enough they make plans.

all of this is really a shame as battleships are pretty dang awesome, and I would like to see them used more. seems that only a few people are really giving them a try though.

@ChainsawPlankto on twitter

Seraph Essael
Air
The Initiative.
#11 - 2015-02-19 15:48:48 UTC
Erica Dusette wrote:
I enjoy using battleships semi-regularly, particularly the Barghest.

In our corp Suddenly Barghest™ has become a thing. Why just jump into something simple to go do a lol-gank? Why not take billions of ISK worth of faction battleships instead and make it an event? So we do. Nothing like dying to a Barghest and Bhaalgorn while you're trying to run your relic site in your Heron or something.

Of course though this isn't really a "fight", but you will still get some occasionally because even Suddenly Barghest™ goes bad sometimes and turns into Suddenly Brawl.



PvP Barghest <3

That monster is a machine!!!

Quoted from Doc Fury: "Concerned citizens: Doc seldom plays EVE on the weekends during spring and summer, so you will always be on your own for a couple days a week. Doc spends that time collecting kittens for the on-going sacrifices, engaging in reckless outdoor activities, and speaking in the 3rd person."

SpaceMonkey
DAB
Solyaris Chtonium
#12 - 2015-02-19 15:57:09 UTC
Interesting alliance name.. I look forward to my copy right royalties.Pirate

I remember a day when that is what you flew to fight and roam. battleships ruled the space lanes and it was a glorious time. Ravens loaded with heavy launchers firing torps or cruise, ruptures burning around at 5k and gank geddons fit with 1400 arties and 8 gyro'swith 100% tracking of even a frig.

I get why changes were made to the above, but yes battleships are near useless to fly. They still have role, but mostly high sec be that bumping or mish running in faction/techII BS.. even mission runners stay clear of the tech I variants. It's pretty sad state of affairs tbh.

So much has changed around them that I don't know where to begin to rebalance them. Bombers will be bombers, if they drop tech III correctly it's dead as well as a BS. I don't think they broke the BS I think so many tweaks to improve or nerf other ships and stats that have landed the battleship where it is now.
Phoenix Jones
Small-Arms Fire
#13 - 2015-02-19 16:17:36 UTC
Well they could adjust bombing damage by adjusting a current battleship module, the target spectrum breaker (which is relatively useless atm).

Change it to a Area Spectrum Resistor. Basically give the battleship a increase to the resistance of area effect weapons (bombs). It's an active module, takes a significant amount of cap or possibly cap boosters, and provides resistance to all bomb damage for 20 seconds or something like that.

So you have your battleship gang, you see bombs flying at you. You can either micro jump drive, activate this module, or try to warp away. You have 10 seconds to react to the bomb wave. You see it, activate module, and resist the damage of the bombs (let's say it reduces the aoe by 70 percent).

Modules a midslot already.

So instead of nerfing bombs and bombers, give the battleships a buff by giving them a method of actively surviving the blast.

id rather give the players ways of surviving than just straight nerfing.


Yaay!!!!

Faridah
Horde Armada
Pandemic Horde
#14 - 2015-02-19 16:46:48 UTC
Maybe defender missile launchers could finally find it's place. You load them with those new blitzing fast bomb-seeking warheads?
Ravasta Helugo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#15 - 2015-02-19 17:07:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravasta Helugo
They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships or a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.

Preferably specific battleship hulls will specialize in each of these rolls.

A good practical example is the Rattlesnake: It's damage bonus is to MISSILES, not to Cruises or Torps. This allows it to project terrific firepower onto frigates if it chooses to fit rapid lights. This flexibility should be available to more battleships.
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#16 - 2015-02-19 17:39:13 UTC
There are a few hulls that currently work pretty well for a few niches, but over the class needs a balance pass. With boosts and implants you can rock people pretty hard still if they don't.
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#17 - 2015-02-19 17:58:59 UTC
Aralyn Cormallen wrote:
I feel your pain Sad

At the moment, the big problem is Bombers. Those tubby, slow-moving battleships make wonderful targets to swarming wings of bombers, whereas the faster, smaller-sigged (and in the case of T3's equally-tough) cruisers are less vulnerable. People still use Battleships (as do we from time to time), but til the threat of bombs recedes a little, they are going to rarely be a mainstay

This is trotted out every time someone brings this up and its BS (also along with isboxer cheater crap). Sure bombers are very effective against BS. They is what they are for. But a few AF in the fleet and well the bombers are no more. Oh bombs you say? Well then BS would be used in LS.

They still arn't used much in LS either. So it is not bombs or bombers. It is that HACs are better in every way. Period.

They tank as well with a smaller sig radius and are faster than a BS, so damage application from *all* weapon systems is less (tracking for turrets, sig radius and velocity for missiles/torps ). Combined with great damage output from HACs damage projection and faster warp speed better agility, there really is no reason to use a BS. A fleet of eagles is pretty effective while Ishtars are godlike.

Basically power creep has meant that BS and to a lesser extent BC don't have a role.

Despite this there are BS fleets around (navy apocs). Funny thing about them is that they are not bombed off field with these mythical fleets of bomber wings. Well no more than what should be expected by normal balance game play.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

Memphis Baas
#18 - 2015-02-19 18:23:19 UTC
Ravasta Helugo wrote:
They need a significant boost in EHP or a significant boost to the damage they deal to smaller ships or a significant boost to the damage they deal to larger ships.


Can it be done by rebalancing battleship-sized modules and guns rather than rebalancing the ships, in your opinion? So that one could fit a battleship for one of your or's, or another.
Orlacc
#19 - 2015-02-19 18:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Orlacc
You young punks! In my day we used Battleships to mine! (true story) And it was uphill both ways!

"Measure Twice, Cut Once."

Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#20 - 2015-02-19 18:36:23 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do.
Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare.
Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's.
Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE.
Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets?
I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is?



Alright if you are having some kind of image of wooden ships of old side by side putting ball into each other, or maybe something like WWII with the long volleys..... the computer says no.

That a kind of warfare more akin to "second generation war" or also called "line warfare". (First generation is usually called "siege warfare" - castles and such)

Eve is more geared towards 3rd generation maneuver warfare where if you use a battleship it's more likely the center of a "support group".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!

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