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Battleship Fights
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ggodhsup
relocation LLC.
#21 - 2015-02-19 18:45:12 UTC
Orlacc wrote:
You young punks! In my day we used Battleships to mine! (true story) And it was uphill both ways!


i remember when the tier 3 bs's were released, i caught a maelstrom belt ratting in solitude low-sec. belt ratting.

but really, their warp speed makes them really boring. more time warping than anything. even moreso, there is no sneaking up on anyone in them.
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#22 - 2015-02-19 18:50:46 UTC
If you really want battleship fights, you need to find some low sec worth fighting over. Bombers can't pee in your cornflakes there, hot drops are very unlikely and a fortified battleship fleet could stand up to an Ishtar fleet with a proper doctrine.

Name that low sec? Nope, I go t nothing.
Serene Repose
#23 - 2015-02-19 21:21:17 UTC
Roaming in a BS is like ballet in combat boots. It can be done...if you're not worried about TIME.

We must accommodate the idiocracy.
Vyl Vit
#24 - 2015-02-19 21:27:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Sisohiv wrote:
If you really want battleship fights, you need to find some low sec worth fighting over. Bombers can't pee in your cornflakes there, hot drops are very unlikely and a fortified battleship fleet could stand up to an Ishtar fleet with a proper doctrine.
There may be a lot more to this than meets the eye. Using a BS like a cruiser seems to be the hitch in the getalong. Then, using a cruiser like a powerful frigate seems to be the desire - which likens this sort of fight to dogfighting in jets, not classic naval fleet engagement...if you see where I'm going here.

Anyway, I think battleships where swept out of favor without really examining if it was necessary. At the time it seemed convenient, and now it seems like doctrine. Yet, I think it's too much ship to just reject out of hand just because of something one has heard from someone else who "knows." We don't really know. This "proper doctrine" hasn't been fully explored, so it surely hasn't been thoroughly tested.

When I'm sitting at a gate in my well-tanked, cruise-missile fitted Fleet Typhoon w/enviable drone augmentation,
next to a T3 cruiser, I'm not nervous...how about you?

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#25 - 2015-02-19 21:50:17 UTC
Slow to warp, slow to align, slow to lock, low mobility on the field, high SP requirements, mediocre damage application?

There's a plethora of reasons not to use battleships. They are useful when employed in specialist roles, or when durability and damage output is needed but capitals can't be used and speed is not a factor, but otherwise there's normally a better, or more fun option.
Kiandoshia
Applied Anarchy
The Initiative.
#26 - 2015-02-19 21:58:20 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Kestral Anneto wrote:
I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do.
Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare.
Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's.
Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE.
Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets?
I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is?



Alright if you are having some kind of image of wooden ships of old side by side putting ball into each other, or maybe something like WWII with the long volleys..... the computer says no.

That a kind of warfare more akin to "second generation war" or also called "line warfare". (First generation is usually called "siege warfare" - castles and such)

Eve is more geared towards 3rd generation maneuver warfare where if you use a battleship it's more likely the center of a "support group".


Only that every ship in the support group warps twice as fast as a battleship.

Also, I don't think Eve is terribly 3rd generation warfare. Maybe that is the idea behind ship designs but look at the practice and you see, it has all gone out of the window and everyone's flying Tengus, Ishtars and Scimitars =p
Theodoric Darkwind
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#27 - 2015-02-19 22:46:13 UTC
Elenahina wrote:
At this point, the only point a battleship really serves is to bash on structures you can't reach with capitals.

And to bump freighters. Never forget the freighter bumping.


Freighter bumping is it pretty much and people only use Machariels and Phoons for that.

Ishtars structure bash every bit as good as Domis and are far more mobile and less likely to DIAF to bombers (though they still can be bombed, ask DBRB about the Ishtar fleets he's wiped out with bombing runs).

Two things need to happen for BS brawls to become a "thing that happens" again.

Bombs need to be nerfed into the dirt or flat out removed from the game (imho nerf the bombs not the bombers, SBs are plenty useful without bombs without being OP).

BS warp speed needs to be un-nerfed so that moving BS fleets isn't an exercise in mental torture. Right now, it is only slightly more painful to move a Carrier/Dread fleet by gates, but of course Carriers/Dreads are vastly more powerful for the annoyance of moving them.

This may not be enough to truly fix it, but would help. BSes are still slaughtered by Carriers/Dreads.

Making BSes viable again would actually do a lot to combat Ishtars/Tengus Online. Making BSes other than the Domi and Apoc viable would do even more, right now Domis and Apocs are the only ones with the range and tracking to effectively fight Ishtars and Tengus.
Claud Tiberius
#28 - 2015-02-19 23:06:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Claud Tiberius
BS, particularly T1's, are very much a support ship. You don't fly them on their own because, they cannot handle all target types (unlike T3's and some T2 Cruisers). I think for the most part this is what CCP intended. Their not meant to be the best choice for all fleet battles.

Having said that, I think T3's and BS compete for the same place in fleets and since T3 are just better overall, BS rarely get used. T2 BS certainly still have a place in fleet battles as T3 cannot compete against them. But the T2 BS price being so high, it is often questioned why not use a capital ship instead.

Once upon a time the Golem had a Raven hull and it looked good. Then it transformed into a plataduck. The end.
BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#29 - 2015-02-19 23:53:22 UTC  |  Edited by: BrundleMeth
I luv my Battle Ships. I have a collection of about 70, most of them Navy versions. Half of them fit... My Favorite is my Scorpion Ishukone. I'll never undock that one.

I play solo so I rarely get to fly them for what passes as PVP. But they look shiny...
Ashlar Maidstone
MoonFyre BattleGroup Holdings
#30 - 2015-02-19 23:57:01 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Slow to warp, slow to align, slow to lock, low mobility on the field, high SP requirements, mediocre damage application?

There's a plethora of reasons not to use battleships. They are useful when employed in specialist roles, or when durability and damage output is needed but capitals can't be used and speed is not a factor, but otherwise there's normally a better, or more fun option.


I cannot but agree with you on this, a BS such as an Apoc is a sitting duck unless there's a way to otherwise get moving. I realize that align and warping are slow but I cannot see the reasoning behind it except for the mass size, I hate to try a carrier next and see it does....Shocked
Harrison Tato
Yamato Holdings
#31 - 2015-02-20 00:30:27 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:
[quote=Elenahina]

Bombs need to be nerfed into the dirt or flat out removed from the game (imho nerf the bombs not the bombers, SBs are plenty useful without bombs without being OP).



Might as well just remove SBs since putting bombs (slamming a torpedo in WWII terms) into the side of a battleship or carrier and doing the David v. Golliath thing is the reason they exist.
McChicken Combo HalfMayo
The Happy Meal
#32 - 2015-02-20 00:48:25 UTC
3600mm plates and X-Large Shield Extenders would go a long way in making battleships more relevant.

There are all our dominion

Gate camps: "Its like the lowsec watercooler, just with explosions and boose" - Ralph King-Griffin
BrundleMeth
State War Academy
Caldari State
#33 - 2015-02-20 00:48:26 UTC
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:

Bombs need to be nerfed into the dirt or flat out removed from the game (imho nerf the bombs not the bombers,

Ah, poor fellow lost some bling to a surprise bomber. Tsk Tsk. Probably wants ECM removed too...and AFK Cloakers...and anything else that cost him ISK...
Bullet Therapist
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#34 - 2015-02-20 04:14:13 UTC
Claud Tiberius wrote:
BS, particularly T1's, are very much a support ship. You don't fly them on their own because, they cannot handle all target types (unlike T3's and some T2 Cruisers). I think for the most part this is what CCP intended. Their not meant to be the best choice for all fleet battles.

Having said that, I think T3's and BS compete for the same place in fleets and since T3 are just better overall, BS rarely get used. T2 BS certainly still have a place in fleet battles as T3 cannot compete against them. But the T2 BS price being so high, it is often questioned why not use a capital ship instead.


The only T2 battleships are marauders and blops; they don't follow the AF/HAC line and neither of which are something you'd want to bring to a fleet fight.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2015-02-20 06:01:15 UTC
BS will see use again when T3s and the ishtar finally get their nerfes.
knobber Jobbler
State War Academy
Caldari State
#36 - 2015-02-20 06:54:59 UTC
Kestral Anneto wrote:
I was talking to one of my corpmates the other night, we were discussing ships, training etc that I wanted to do.
Along the course of the discussion it became pretty obvious that the fights/ships that i would like to get into are . . . rare.
Basically, i'd like to get into Battleship fights, however these are rare i was told, because of Ishtars and T3's.
Why don't people use battleships more in fleets/gangs? From what i've seen they are consigned to the shadows of PVE.
Surely i'm not the only one that would like to get into a brawling knife fight, rather than messing about dropping sentries, reconnecting to them etc etc that comes with Ishtars, and the insane expense of T3 fleets?
I'm not advocating any changes with this thread, just asking why it is?


If you're doing purely defensive battles, like protection of a pos, Napoc with Triage Archons is still viable. Bomber proof, can out range Ishtars and is more than a match for Tengus. Completely immobile though. Domi fleet is also a defensive option.

Many people would like some variation in fleet PVP but Tiercide screwed everything up and doesn't scale into 50+ fleets.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#37 - 2015-02-20 07:12:57 UTC
Just go for even bigger things. Like carriers.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#38 - 2015-02-20 07:54:07 UTC
Alavaria Fera wrote:
Just go for even bigger things. Like carriers.


I just cooked up a titan with 3au warp speed, align time that isnt terrible and able to blap subcaps. If only I had the isk to throw at a project this stupidSad
Auduin Ituin
Doomheim
#39 - 2015-02-20 11:06:27 UTC
They're fat and slow. With Phoebe, they take forever to move around and are easily attacked by bombers.
Whysohorni
Doomheim
#40 - 2015-02-20 11:22:20 UTC
They're big, slow, and their guns have trouble hitting medium or smaller targets, so they are owned by T3 gangs and ishtars.

It's funny because battleships used to be the most powerful combat ships. After years of nerfs to them and boosts to other ships, now they're the worst.

Perhaps large guns need a significant improvement to help them in hitting medium targets.