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Battleships, and their use

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Shelom Severasse
Legion Ascending
Fraternity.
#121 - 2015-01-22 01:33:41 UTC
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
I know I'm just a new Capsuleer, but wouldn't a Scorpion class Battleship fitted with a Heavy Neut, 4 HAM Launchers with Rage, a Web, a Scram, a Drone Aug for Drones range, a few Drone Damage Aug's, and a full ECM suite theoretically beat most Frigates and destroyers? I toyed with the idea of using it if i ever needed too.. Just jam your opponent constantly, Web and Scram them, set the Drones and Launchers on them with the Neut.. That would work right? Same with a Raven with enough TP and a Web, and a Heavy Neut.. I have played around with PvP Caldari Battleship builds since i started, and i try and get them to excel at 1-3vs1 Frigates and up.. Though all i have to go off is the current meta and what i have read.. So i am probably wrong, but it should work.. at least if the Frigate pilot isn't a 5 year old vet that knows every trick or someone who has planned against it.. Sorry if I'm wrong..



Your stumbling down the right path.

Ironicaly the most deadly anti-frig ship is the rattlesnake.


Oh? That is the pirate Drone boat right? I will have to look int that, i was just thinking cause when i ran a test through my EFT and ran the numbers the Scorpion class Battleship seemed to be the obvious choice for BS vs Frigate, especially if it is 1 on 1, and even if it has back up, you have 5 Jammers, so.. Yeah.. Anyways, thanks for the reply! Ill get out of this now so i don't get in the way of this thread with any stupid assumptions or stupid noob questions or mistakes, cheers!

You can always start your own thread with whatever you want to talk about man :p
Alexi Drakenovic
Doomheim
#122 - 2015-01-22 01:38:59 UTC
Shelom Severasse wrote:
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
I know I'm just a new Capsuleer, but wouldn't a Scorpion class Battleship fitted with a Heavy Neut, 4 HAM Launchers with Rage, a Web, a Scram, a Drone Aug for Drones range, a few Drone Damage Aug's, and a full ECM suite theoretically beat most Frigates and destroyers? I toyed with the idea of using it if i ever needed too.. Just jam your opponent constantly, Web and Scram them, set the Drones and Launchers on them with the Neut.. That would work right? Same with a Raven with enough TP and a Web, and a Heavy Neut.. I have played around with PvP Caldari Battleship builds since i started, and i try and get them to excel at 1-3vs1 Frigates and up.. Though all i have to go off is the current meta and what i have read.. So i am probably wrong, but it should work.. at least if the Frigate pilot isn't a 5 year old vet that knows every trick or someone who has planned against it.. Sorry if I'm wrong..



Your stumbling down the right path.

Ironicaly the most deadly anti-frig ship is the rattlesnake.


Oh? That is the pirate Drone boat right? I will have to look int that, i was just thinking cause when i ran a test through my EFT and ran the numbers the Scorpion class Battleship seemed to be the obvious choice for BS vs Frigate, especially if it is 1 on 1, and even if it has back up, you have 5 Jammers, so.. Yeah.. Anyways, thanks for the reply! Ill get out of this now so i don't get in the way of this thread with any stupid assumptions or stupid noob questions or mistakes, cheers!

You can always start your own thread with whatever you want to talk about man :p


Yeah i know that, but this actually went with this thread, so i put some input in is all, haha! My fits aren't good apparently (According to forum people and that, my Corp like the fits i make them though) so yeah.. And wait.. I can make my own post about anything i want to talk about? Even.. *looks over shoulder* the meaning to life?..

Haha! Just joking, but yeah, thanks man, i actually post a lot considering I'm new, I'm trying to make a name for myself *pulls heroic pose* but i might start up another one now.. You got me thinking about new thread topics!
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#123 - 2015-01-22 02:00:07 UTC
I'm really not understanding how anyone is getting an Apoc up to anywhere near 3000 ms without massive links. You would literally have to have zero tank and a **** ton of links to get anywhere near that
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2015-01-22 02:10:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Chessur wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I'm not biting off more then I can chew. I have seen it happen again and again. One frigate gets under your guns and it's all over. They will shoot down your drones and u will no longer be able to damage them. Even dual webbed, u will not even touch a frigate under 3000m. So how do u plan getting out of that?
You are not arguing with your average pilot that doesn't know how to kill things is all i'm saying. He is one of the few people that posts that doesn't speak above his ability. All of his advice is sound.


I'm sure he is competent. But I know for a fact that without a neut or being a drone boat with drone damage bonuses, you will be helpless to any frigate that comes by. And him telling me that he thinks he can move faster then a frigate with his mwd Apoc is laughable


Please, bring your incursis into thera. Will be there with my plethora of BS ships. We will both warp to some place and i will kill you. Bring plenty of incursis. I will enjoy collecting free kills.

Battleships with any neuting potentional / AB / Speed / webs will kill you easily. Watch ANY big miker video, or some of my BS footage. Most / All BS will fit a heavy neut specifically to deal with frigates. A single heated MWD cycle away on top of a web, is enough transversal to get a shot off, which will volley your frigate.

A navy apoc can heat to 3K/S. which is enough to coast, cut transversal and then volley your frigate with 1 shot. The Apoc that I fly, is a nano apoc. Also the Apoc can use MJDs. Heavy neut just before your cycle your MJD off- your scram goes out. I warp to 100K away, load Scorch- burn back in. At that point I am going to kill you with 800DPS to your face.

You are correct in stating, that if your frigate gets to within a BS with scram, web, and that BS somehow is not packing a heavy neut or a flight of light drones- you will kill it. However any competent BS pilots has a fleet with him (With anti-support ships) or, Flys a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle, they will drop a gun for a heavy neut.

I will bring my nightmare- to fight any frigate of your choice. Watch nightmareX. In it you can see me volloying garmurs, dramiels, dictors.... and other light tackle. I can't wait to fraps your pathetic attempts to kill me in a single frigate.


I have no doubt that you can volley frigates and what not in any BS. I have done it many times. The problem is if they get in close. Which is not difficult for a frigate seeing as it takes about 15 secs to lock and in 99 percent of cases the frigate is MUCH faster. Once they are in close the ONLY thing that can save you is a neut. Which many ships don't have the utility slot for so they have to gimp themselves to fit.

Still very curious how u manage 3000ms in an apoc without serious links and implants
Alexi Drakenovic
Doomheim
#125 - 2015-01-22 02:14:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexi Drakenovic
Question: You guys are all using terms like "under its guns" and the like so would these ideas and that work against a Missile Battleship? As they always hit, albet at reduced damage, but does it make a difference? Like will a Missile boat kill faster or will the one with Guns just one volley it if it connects? I am actually interested in this as I know Insta damage weapons are Preferred for PvP but would a Missile boat Battleship win out against a Frigate?

Forgive me if that was a stupid question..
Chessur
Full Broadside
Deepwater Hooligans
#126 - 2015-01-22 02:34:29 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Chessur wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I'm not biting off more then I can chew. I have seen it happen again and again. One frigate gets under your guns and it's all over. They will shoot down your drones and u will no longer be able to damage them. Even dual webbed, u will not even touch a frigate under 3000m. So how do u plan getting out of that?
You are not arguing with your average pilot that doesn't know how to kill things is all i'm saying. He is one of the few people that posts that doesn't speak above his ability. All of his advice is sound.


I'm sure he is competent. But I know for a fact that without a neut or being a drone boat with drone damage bonuses, you will be helpless to any frigate that comes by. And him telling me that he thinks he can move faster then a frigate with his mwd Apoc is laughable


Please, bring your incursis into thera. Will be there with my plethora of BS ships. We will both warp to some place and i will kill you. Bring plenty of incursis. I will enjoy collecting free kills.

Battleships with any neuting potentional / AB / Speed / webs will kill you easily. Watch ANY big miker video, or some of my BS footage. Most / All BS will fit a heavy neut specifically to deal with frigates. A single heated MWD cycle away on top of a web, is enough transversal to get a shot off, which will volley your frigate.

A navy apoc can heat to 3K/S. which is enough to coast, cut transversal and then volley your frigate with 1 shot. The Apoc that I fly, is a nano apoc. Also the Apoc can use MJDs. Heavy neut just before your cycle your MJD off- your scram goes out. I warp to 100K away, load Scorch- burn back in. At that point I am going to kill you with 800DPS to your face.

You are correct in stating, that if your frigate gets to within a BS with scram, web, and that BS somehow is not packing a heavy neut or a flight of light drones- you will kill it. However any competent BS pilots has a fleet with him (With anti-support ships) or, Flys a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle, they will drop a gun for a heavy neut.

I will bring my nightmare- to fight any frigate of your choice. Watch nightmareX. In it you can see me volloying garmurs, dramiels, dictors.... and other light tackle. I can't wait to fraps your pathetic attempts to kill me in a single frigate.


I have no doubt that you can volley frigates and what not in any BS. I have done it many times. The problem is if they get in close. Which is not difficult for a frigate seeing as it takes about 15 secs to lock and in 99 percent of cases the frigate is MUCH faster. Once they are in close the ONLY thing that can save you is a neut. Which many ships don't have the utility slot for so they have to gimp themselves to fit.

Still very curious how u manage 3000ms in an apoc without serious links and implants


Yah, i am using implants, links, quafe, and nanos.

With a sig amp + Quafe you can get frig lock time around 8 sec or so.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2015-01-22 02:38:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
Question: You guys are all using terms like "under its guns" and the like so would these ideas and that work against a Missile Battleship? As they always hit, albet at reduced damage, but does it make a difference? Like will a Missile boat kill faster or will the one with Guns just one volley it if it connects? I am actually interested in this as I know Insta damage weapons are Preferred for PvP but would a Missile boat Battleship win out against a Frigate?

Forgive me if that was a stupid question..


The mechanic with missles is a little different. Missiles always hit, but the damage is significantly reduced to smaller faster targets. Distance has no factor in the equation like guns. For missiles you want to reduce your explosion radius and explosion velocity as much as possible, as well as using webs and painters to increase the applied damage.
Alexi Drakenovic
Doomheim
#128 - 2015-01-22 02:41:34 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
Question: You guys are all using terms like "under its guns" and the like so would these ideas and that work against a Missile Battleship? As they always hit, albet at reduced damage, but does it make a difference? Like will a Missile boat kill faster or will the one with Guns just one volley it if it connects? I am actually interested in this as I know Insta damage weapons are Preferred for PvP but would a Missile boat Battleship win out against a Frigate?

Forgive me if that was a stupid question..


The mechanic with missles is a little different. Missles always hit, but the damage is significantly reduced to smaller faster targets. Distance has no factor in the equation like guns. For missles you want to reduce your explosion radius and explosion velocity as much as possible, as well as using webs and painters to increase the applied damage


Does that mean with the right fit to work with it (i.e. A Neut, 2 TP, 1 Web, 6 Cruise Missiles, and full skills) might pull of similar or better then a turret weapon? Forgive my stupidity.. I have only used Missiles thus far
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#129 - 2015-01-22 05:05:26 UTC
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:


Oh? That is the pirate Drone boat right? I will have to look int that, i was just thinking cause when i ran a test through my EFT and ran the numbers the Scorpion class Battleship seemed to be the obvious choice for BS vs Frigate, especially if it is 1 on 1, and even if it has back up, you have 5 Jammers, so.. Yeah.. Anyways, thanks for the reply! Ill get out of this now so i don't get in the way of this thread with any stupid assumptions or stupid noob questions or mistakes, cheers!


In part. Mostly it is because of the damage bonus to every missile type which means it has the hardest hitting RLML isk can buy. The entire caldari BS lineup is rather good.
Alexi Drakenovic
Doomheim
#130 - 2015-01-22 05:06:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:


Oh? That is the pirate Drone boat right? I will have to look int that, i was just thinking cause when i ran a test through my EFT and ran the numbers the Scorpion class Battleship seemed to be the obvious choice for BS vs Frigate, especially if it is 1 on 1, and even if it has back up, you have 5 Jammers, so.. Yeah.. Anyways, thanks for the reply! Ill get out of this now so i don't get in the way of this thread with any stupid assumptions or stupid noob questions or mistakes, cheers!


In part. Mostly it is because of the damage bonus to every missile type which means it has the hardest hitting RLML isk can buy. The entire caldari BS lineup is rather good.


And you good sir, are the only person so far that has said anything good about Caldari to me since i started! Haha! I will keep that in mind and try to make something that works, thanks again man!
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#131 - 2015-01-22 05:22:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Alexi Drakenovic wrote:


Oh? That is the pirate Drone boat right? I will have to look int that, i was just thinking cause when i ran a test through my EFT and ran the numbers the Scorpion class Battleship seemed to be the obvious choice for BS vs Frigate, especially if it is 1 on 1, and even if it has back up, you have 5 Jammers, so.. Yeah.. Anyways, thanks for the reply! Ill get out of this now so i don't get in the way of this thread with any stupid assumptions or stupid noob questions or mistakes, cheers!


In part. Mostly it is because of the damage bonus to every missile type which means it has the hardest hitting RLML isk can buy. The entire caldari BS lineup is rather good.


And you good sir, are the only person so far that has said anything good about Caldari to me since i started! Haha! I will keep that in mind and try to make something that works, thanks again man!


Honestly, I think the Caldari have better gunships than the Gallente. I'm probably going to get flamed hardcore for that, but I'll take a Moa over a Thorax; a Ferox over a Brutix pretty much any day of the week. And I prefer armor tanking, mind you.

Plus... can anyone really argue with the Moa's redesign? It went from being quite possibly EVE's ugliest duckling to its coolest looking ship period.

No... you'll hear no hate for the Caldari coming from me. I don't think their missile ships have a lot of PvP utility, but their rail based units (particularly the T1 stuff) seem fairly underutilized, but are fine performers (I would like to see the Ferox get a bit of a visual upgrade, though).
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#132 - 2015-01-22 12:12:33 UTC
Chessur wrote:
However any competent BS pilots has a fleet with him (With anti-support ships) or, Flys a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle, they will drop a gun for a heavy neut.



Game over

As Chessur said, any competent BS pilot will fly a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle and will drop a gun or more for heavy neutra.
Worst, he will be able to get rid off most medium size tackler too.

I use a typhoon fleet issue quite often (923 solo kills) and light tacklers are insignificants, sometimes i don't even kill them, waste of time ... and oh surprise ... my 8 hi slots are not filled with guns only ... i wonder why
Catalytic morphisis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#133 - 2015-01-22 13:06:12 UTC
Icarius wrote:
Chessur wrote:
However any competent BS pilots has a fleet with him (With anti-support ships) or, Flys a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle, they will drop a gun for a heavy neut.



Game over

As Chessur said, any competent BS pilot will fly a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle and will drop a gun or more for heavy neutra.
Worst, he will be able to get rid off most medium size tackler too.

I use a typhoon fleet issue quite often (923 solo kills) and light tacklers are insignificants, sometimes i don't even kill them, waste of time ... and oh surprise ... my 8 hi slots are not filled with guns only ... i wonder why

Best policy, I approve of this

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#134 - 2015-01-22 13:23:21 UTC
Icarius wrote:
Chessur wrote:
However any competent BS pilots has a fleet with him (With anti-support ships) or, Flys a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle, they will drop a gun for a heavy neut.



Game over

As Chessur said, any competent BS pilot will fly a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle and will drop a gun or more for heavy neutra.
Worst, he will be able to get rid off most medium size tackler too.

I use a typhoon fleet issue quite often (923 solo kills) and light tacklers are insignificants, sometimes i don't even kill them, waste of time ... and oh surprise ... my 8 hi slots are not filled with guns only ... i wonder why


And by competence I guess you mean killing PVE ships in hisec?
Icarius
The Wings of Maak
#135 - 2015-01-22 13:46:27 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
Icarius wrote:
Chessur wrote:
However any competent BS pilots has a fleet with him (With anti-support ships) or, Flys a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle, they will drop a gun for a heavy neut.



Game over

As Chessur said, any competent BS pilot will fly a BS that can 'deal' with light tackle and will drop a gun or more for heavy neutra.
Worst, he will be able to get rid off most medium size tackler too.

I use a typhoon fleet issue quite often (923 solo kills) and light tacklers are insignificants, sometimes i don't even kill them, waste of time ... and oh surprise ... my 8 hi slots are not filled with guns only ... i wonder why


And by competence I guess you mean killing PVE ships in hisec?



I mean anything i see, PVE or PVP ships, while surviving constant damages from faction police, something you are not able to do at the moment. Well .. from a guy who is only able, alone, to kill an algos, fitted for exploration, with an absolution ... it s quite funny
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#136 - 2015-01-22 13:57:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Aiyshimin
Icarius wrote:

I mean anything i see, PVE or PVP ships, while surviving constant damages from faction police, something you are not able to do at the moment. Well .. from a guy who is only able, alone, to kill an algos, fitted for exploration, with an absolution ... it s quite funny


Are you seriously suggesting that your hisec ganking is somehow relevant to discussion about battleship viability? Of course it works for what you do, you are not exposed to competent opponents. Take your TFI to Huola?

Sorry, Aiyshimin is my indy alt https://zkillboard.com/character/1456935381/

EDIT: lol, the algos must have been this fight https://zkillboard.com/related/31000677/201307041900/
Catalytic morphisis
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2015-01-22 14:01:19 UTC
Love how speaking about Battleship viability has turned into a penis measuring competition...

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
#138 - 2015-01-22 14:22:15 UTC
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#139 - 2015-01-22 15:17:47 UTC
It's already been established several times in this thread that battleships are capable of dealing with frigates, however this surely isn't something unique to them, and many ships are far more efficient in dealing with frigs.

So maybe the problems are deeper than that.

baltec1, what you mean to say is that the blasters on your Mega can match or surpass the tracking speed of medium electrons, but in truth they still have 400m signature resolution against 125m of medium blasters. Which means that the effective tracking of medium electrons is actually three times better than battleship guns.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#140 - 2015-01-22 15:24:31 UTC
Aiyshimin wrote:
It's already been established several times in this thread that battleships are capable of dealing with frigates, however this surely isn't something unique to them, and many ships are far more efficient in dealing with frigs.

So maybe the problems are deeper than that.

baltec1, what you mean to say is that the blasters on your Mega can match or surpass the tracking speed of medium electrons, but in truth they still have 400m signature resolution against 125m of medium blasters. Which means that the effective tracking of medium electrons is actually three times better than battleship guns.


Yet my bog standard neutron mega will happily hit destroyers and fighters.

The high tracking variant I am now using does not have many issues with webbed frigates.