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Battleships, and their use

First post
Author
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2015-01-20 02:27:15 UTC
This will most likely come off as a rant, and I am sure I will get totally flamed for it, given that is the type of mentality of most EVE players, but I have something that I really don't understand.

I really enjoyed flying battleships, I liked how they felt, what they look like, and the overall experience. However, outside of PVE, and maybe some station bashing, they are almost totally useless. There are exceptions, mostly the drone and neut boats, but missile and gunnery based battleships are totally disappointing in PVP.

I know this is where everyone is going to scream out and tell me learn to play. I have played EVE for many years, and yes I do stupid things and take stupid risks for the fun and challenge, but I know how to play the game.

My point is, what good is a ship that smaller, cheaper ships outperform in so many ways? The only thing I can think of that battleship are more capable of, is fighting stationary massive targets, and tanking. But what good is a slow, hulking, slow targeting, terribad tracking, ship that can take a whole lot of damage, but not apply any back to anything not their own size?

I mean seriously, a BS poses almost zero threat to anything smaller then a BC and can EASILY be overcome by any t1, t2, frig or cruiser that has any sense and the ability to get in close. Sure it will take a while, but eventually you will run out of cap, or booster charges, and that Ishkur will take your billion dollar paperweight down.

Yes, I understand bigger is not better in EVE. So why the hell does my bigger and less useful battleship cost about 20 times more then my assault frigate which is 10 times more effective at everything but sitting there looking pretty and taking a **** ton of damage? It doesn't make sense! If I spend a billion isk, I want to be able to use it for something and have fun with it, not be restricted to boring missions or the rare instance of station bashing which I am rendered obsolete by dreads.

I can not tell you how many times I have specifically fit my BS to be able to handle smaller targets, double webbed, tracking computers, the whole nine yards, only to have some navy Vexor get in under my guns and **** me up the ass royally, and laugh as my billion dollar investment gets made to look like the prison *****. There is just something wrong with that. It is a Battleship! it should be able to BATTLE, not collect dust in your hangar.

And please, before you all tell me to learn to play, tell me, how often do you see ANYONE even fly a battleship, other then in station games outside Jita? There is a reason for that. They are terrible!
Hal Morsh
Doomheim
#2 - 2015-01-20 02:30:24 UTC
Do you know how sad a frigate would be if you hit him?

Oh, I perfectly understand, Hal Morsh — a mission like this requires courage, skill, and heroism… qualities you are clearly lacking. Have you forgotten you're one of the bloody immortals!?

Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2015-01-20 02:32:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Hal Morsh wrote:
Do you know how sad a frigate would be if you hit him?


Sure, but once they are under 10 km, that will never happen. He will simply shoot down your drones and orbit you at 500 laughing and eating a Twinkie as he whittles you down to nothing. You would have to get lucky and pop him on his way in, but lets be real, it takes like 15 seconds just to target ONE frigate, they would be shitting on you before you even had them targeted.
Lugia3
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#4 - 2015-01-20 02:38:52 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
Do you know how sad a frigate would be if you hit him?


Sure, but once they are under 10 km, that will never happen. He will simply shoot down your drones and orbit you at 500 laughing and eating a Twinkie as he whittles you down to nothing. You would have to get lucky and pop him on his way in, but lets be real, it takes like 15 seconds just to target ONE frigate, they would be shitting on you before you even had them targeted.


This is where "not being caught" comes into play. Tanks are not meant to engage in head-to-head combat with F-16's.

"CCP Dolan is full of shit." - CCP Bettik

Vyl Vit
#5 - 2015-01-20 02:40:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
I feel your pain. I'm a Typhoon man, myself. I've always loved the ship. Call me stupid, (but don't call me late for supper.) I do mission with a fleet issue Typhoon, with cruise missiles and drones, and it's mighty fine - to me, anyway. But, yeah, for PVP it purely sucks and folks just laugh if I bring it to the game. It does have its uses, but the way PVP is played in the main these days, it's really worse than a fifth wheel...and I think that can be said of all battleships except for a speed-rigged Machariel. (Though those have fallen out of vogue as time has gone forward on us.)

This all began with the introduction of the T3 cruiser iirc (and I think I do.) THEN the complaint was only big ships got love and if you planned to PVP you may as well forget about your battlecruiser and standard cruiser. Those two don't fare very well at lucrative 4lvl missions, so what was the point of using them? The Domi was all the rage, and the only other ship that had as much glory was the OP Drake missile boat. Enter the T3 and all that changed almost over night.

I really wish things were more balanced. I wish the introduction of one ship, or tech, didn't drive another one into obsolescence, but for the life of me I can't come up with a way to suggest to developers so this sort of thing can be avoided. Compound this with the fact I like using a cruise missile fleet issue Typhoon, and that's a HUGE no-no in incursions. So, what I do best, which isn't supposed to be a useless set of skills (but for level 4s) I don't get to do at all. Go figure.

I'm training up to use a Panther anyway. Black Ops BS. Maybe it'll be like my clothes...so old it's coming back in style.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#6 - 2015-01-20 02:41:02 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
Do you know how sad a frigate would be if you hit him?


Sure, but once they are under 10 km, that will never happen. He will simply shoot down your drones and orbit you at 500 laughing and eating a Twinkie as he whittles you down to nothing. You would have to get lucky and pop him on his way in, but lets be real, it takes like 15 seconds just to target ONE frigate, they would be shitting on you before you even had them targeted.


This is where "not being caught" comes into play. Tanks are not meant to engage in head-to-head combat with F-16's.


Right, I get that, but that's a lot easier said then done when your max speed is 1000 m/s, and it takes about 6 months to get to the top speed, and your aggressor is MUCH faster. I really want someone to tell me what my purpose in a BS should be so I can actually fly and enjoy them
Unsuccessful At Everything
The Troll Bridge
#7 - 2015-01-20 02:41:46 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
I can not tell you how many times I have specifically fit my BS to be able to handle smaller targets, double webbed, tracking computers, the whole nine yards, only to have some navy Vexor get in under my guns and **** me up the ass royally, and laugh as my billion dollar investment gets made to look like the prison *****. There is just something wrong with that. It is a Battleship! it should be able to BATTLE, not collect dust in your hangar.


It was actually 2 Vexor navies and an Ishtar... unless you are counting that time in Old Man Star...

...And your problem was Hyperion. Hypes have Damage bonus and tanking bonus, which looks good, but when you compare it to Megathron's RoF and Tracking bonus, the Mega has better damage application.

I guarantee you the battle would have gone better in a Megathron.

Since the cessation of their usefulness is imminent, may I appropriate your belongings?

Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#8 - 2015-01-20 02:45:52 UTC
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I can not tell you how many times I have specifically fit my BS to be able to handle smaller targets, double webbed, tracking computers, the whole nine yards, only to have some navy Vexor get in under my guns and **** me up the ass royally, and laugh as my billion dollar investment gets made to look like the prison *****. There is just something wrong with that. It is a Battleship! it should be able to BATTLE, not collect dust in your hangar.


It was actually 2 Vexor navies and an Ishtar... unless you are counting that time in Old Man Star...

...And your problem was Hyperion. Hypes have Damage bonus and tanking bonus, which looks good, but when you compare it to Megathron's RoF and Tracking bonus, the Mega has better damage application.

I guarantee you the battle would have gone better in a Megathron.


Haha, yes there was those two situations. Then many on my other character, in my Raven. Almost lost my Kronos to an Ishkur in a mission and had to have a friend come save me. I mean, it really is embarrassing.
Raiz Nhell
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#9 - 2015-01-20 02:47:15 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:

This will most likely come off as a rant, and I am sure I will get totally flamed for it,



Yes it did and yes you will Lol

You could fit smart bombs, bring friends, neuts, webs... all of these will ruin the day of a smaller ship...

If you want to fit your BB in a certain way expect it to be countered... and big guns are countered by moving fast...

The purpose of a BB is as a "ship of the line" not a solo pwnmobile... Baltec will be able to point you to a few scenarios when BB have been horribly effective...



There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#10 - 2015-01-20 02:47:30 UTC
The general state of battleships IS rather distressing. I often feel like EVE should just rename itself "world of cruisers."
Paranoid Loyd
#11 - 2015-01-20 02:48:38 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I can not tell you how many times I have specifically fit my BS to be able to handle smaller targets, double webbed, tracking computers, the whole nine yards, only to have some navy Vexor get in under my guns and **** me up the ass royally, and laugh as my billion dollar investment gets made to look like the prison *****. There is just something wrong with that. It is a Battleship! it should be able to BATTLE, not collect dust in your hangar.


It was actually 2 Vexor navies and an Ishtar... unless you are counting that time in Old Man Star...

...And your problem was Hyperion. Hypes have Damage bonus and tanking bonus, which looks good, but when you compare it to Megathron's RoF and Tracking bonus, the Mega has better damage application.

I guarantee you the battle would have gone better in a Megathron.


Haha, yes there was those two situations. Then many on my other character, in my Raven. Almost lost my Kronos to an Ishkur in a mission and had to have a friend come save me. I mean, it really is embarrassing.
Ah see you have answered your own question, the key to successfully using battleships is to have support for them when they get caught by something small. If you can't properly support a BS it should not be used for PVP.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2015-01-20 02:50:38 UTC
Raiz Nhell wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:

This will most likely come off as a rant, and I am sure I will get totally flamed for it,



Yes it did and yes you will Lol

You could fit smart bombs, bring friends, neuts, webs... all of these will ruin the day of a smaller ship...

If you want to fit your BB in a certain way expect it to be countered... and big guns are countered by moving fast...

The purpose of a BB is as a "ship of the line" not a solo pwnmobile... Baltec will be able to point you to a few scenarios when BB have been horribly effective...




I had webs and neuts. What do you mean by ship of the line? How should I be using it effectively? If it"s terrible solo, I don't see how it would be much more effective in numbers. Why not just field several cruisers to better effect?
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2015-01-20 02:53:00 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I can not tell you how many times I have specifically fit my BS to be able to handle smaller targets, double webbed, tracking computers, the whole nine yards, only to have some navy Vexor get in under my guns and **** me up the ass royally, and laugh as my billion dollar investment gets made to look like the prison *****. There is just something wrong with that. It is a Battleship! it should be able to BATTLE, not collect dust in your hangar.


It was actually 2 Vexor navies and an Ishtar... unless you are counting that time in Old Man Star...

...And your problem was Hyperion. Hypes have Damage bonus and tanking bonus, which looks good, but when you compare it to Megathron's RoF and Tracking bonus, the Mega has better damage application.

I guarantee you the battle would have gone better in a Megathron.


Haha, yes there was those two situations. Then many on my other character, in my Raven. Almost lost my Kronos to an Ishkur in a mission and had to have a friend come save me. I mean, it really is embarrassing.
Ah see you have answered your own question, the key to successfully using battleships is to have support for them when they get caught by something small. If you can't properly support a BS it should not be used for PVP.


So, the only strength of the battleship is fighting other battleship and larger, it needs friends in smaller ships to save it from everything else? So basically, what u are saying is, a fleet of cruisers and frigates can just ignore the battleships in the group because they are not a real threat to them.
Vyl Vit
#14 - 2015-01-20 02:53:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Vyl Vit
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Unsuccessful At Everything wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I can not tell you how many times I have specifically fit my BS to be able to handle smaller targets, double webbed, tracking computers, the whole nine yards, only to have some navy Vexor get in under my guns and **** me up the ass royally, and laugh as my billion dollar investment gets made to look like the prison *****. There is just something wrong with that. It is a Battleship! it should be able to BATTLE, not collect dust in your hangar.


It was actually 2 Vexor navies and an Ishtar... unless you are counting that time in Old Man Star...

...And your problem was Hyperion. Hypes have Damage bonus and tanking bonus, which looks good, but when you compare it to Megathron's RoF and Tracking bonus, the Mega has better damage application.

I guarantee you the battle would have gone better in a Megathron.


Haha, yes there was those two situations. Then many on my other character, in my Raven. Almost lost my Kronos to an Ishkur in a mission and had to have a friend come save me. I mean, it really is embarrassing.
Ah see you have answered your own question, the key to successfully using battleships is to have support for them when they get caught by something small. If you can't properly support a BS it should not be used for PVP.
And there's nothing casual about that. Using BSs for PVP requires forethought and planning, and as Loyd says, friends in the right places...er, ships. Small gang, fast ship PVP is the norm in EVE these days. BSs, but for the speed-rigged Machariel, are slow as Christmas by comparison. And, even those take some skill and knowledge in order to keep up.

Paradise is like where you are right now, only much, much better.

Raiz Nhell
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#15 - 2015-01-20 02:55:13 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Raiz Nhell wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:

This will most likely come off as a rant, and I am sure I will get totally flamed for it,



Yes it did and yes you will Lol

You could fit smart bombs, bring friends, neuts, webs... all of these will ruin the day of a smaller ship...

If you want to fit your BB in a certain way expect it to be countered... and big guns are countered by moving fast...

The purpose of a BB is as a "ship of the line" not a solo pwnmobile... Baltec will be able to point you to a few scenarios when BB have been horribly effective...




I had webs and neuts. What do you mean by ship of the line? How should I be using it effectively? If it"s terrible solo, I don't see how it would be much more effective in numbers. Why not just field several cruisers to better effect?


Being terrible solo doesn't mean its terrible in a fleet...
By definition all logi ships are really bad solo... but when they have a fleet to rep they are awesome...

And you can mix your fleet composition... BB for damage, a few logi, fast and heavy tackle... all about being well rounded

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

Hasikan Miallok
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#16 - 2015-01-20 02:55:33 UTC
... and real world battleships did so well unescorted or caught unawares:

Battle of Taranto (6 battleships lost mainly to biplanes)
Pearl Harbor (8 battleships lost or out of action entirely due to aircraft)
Bismarck (damaged by a biplane before being caught and sunk by a surface fleet)
Yamato (sunk by aircraft)

many more examples
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#17 - 2015-01-20 02:56:03 UTC
Lugia3 wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
Do you know how sad a frigate would be if you hit him?


Sure, but once they are under 10 km, that will never happen. He will simply shoot down your drones and orbit you at 500 laughing and eating a Twinkie as he whittles you down to nothing. You would have to get lucky and pop him on his way in, but lets be real, it takes like 15 seconds just to target ONE frigate, they would be shitting on you before you even had them targeted.


This is where "not being caught" comes into play. Tanks are not meant to engage in head-to-head combat with F-16's.

I think a better example is an elephant trying to swat away a wasp.
Raiz Nhell
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#18 - 2015-01-20 02:56:54 UTC
Also try fitting undersized guns and a massive tank/ewar... see what happens to those cruisers then :)

Baiting can be fun :)

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#19 - 2015-01-20 02:59:56 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
... and real world battleships did so well unescorted or caught unawares:

Battle of Taranto (6 battleships lost mainly to biplanes)
Pearl Harbor (8 battleships lost or out of action entirely due to aircraft)
Bismarck (damaged by a biplane before being caught and sunk by a surface fleet)
Yamato (sunk by aircraft)

many more examples


This is exactly why BS were decommissioned after WW2
Raiz Nhell
Tactically Challenged
The Initiative.
#20 - 2015-01-20 03:00:07 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
... and real world battleships did so well unescorted or caught unawares:

Battle of Taranto (6 battleships lost mainly to biplanes)
Pearl Harbor (8 battleships lost or out of action entirely due to aircraft)
Bismarck (damaged by a biplane before being caught and sunk by a surface fleet)
Yamato (sunk by aircraft)

many more examples


The Prince of Wales and Repulse...

But when BB's are in a fleet comp they make a mess...

Trafalgar
Tsushima Straits
Leyte Gulf
Jutland

There is no such thing as a fair fight...

If your fighting fair you have automatically put yourself at a disadvantage.

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