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Battleships, and their use

First post
Author
Chessur
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#81 - 2015-01-21 15:56:00 UTC
Battleships are bad becuase of 4 problems. With the slots and fittings they have, they can't adress these 4 problems. Becuae of this- BS needs a large fleet of support behind it, and even then can struggle.

1. Warp Speed: Te changes seen to warp speed have let BS trailing in the dust. 2Au/S is just pathetic. Can't work in a roaming gang.

2. Lock Speed: The fact that a BS needs 10+ seconds to lock a frigate / inty is just inecusable. Those ships can be going 5K/S+ In speed. Which means that (in many cases) They can burn from 60+ away from a BS- and tackle it before the BS can even get a picture lock. Again this is inexcusable, and unplayable.

3. On grid mobility / Speed: Again BS are EXTREAMLY slow to align ,and speed wise in the current meta. Most T1 nano cruisers are already 2.5K+ Add links- and its well above 3K/S. Of couse this speed issue compounds even more with the faster navy and pirate cruisers.

4. Lack of overwhelming DPS / Tank that would make one want to choose a BS in the first place. THe scalability of DPS / Tank from a cruiser to a BS is in all actuality really not very high. BS need to see a significant EHP / DPS / Projection increase (at base) If they are ever going to see some kind of usefulness.

Now these 4 problems can in some ways be fixed with propper fitting / implants / links. However the issue is this: I can't solve all 4 of these glaring problems at once. Becuase of this, BS are simply very sub par in the current meta.

As an example lets take a look at the machariel (Best BS to use roaming Currently)

1. Warp speed: No issue. Thanks to innate bonus, I don't have to waste 2 Rig slots here on 2 T2 hyperspacial rigs.

2. Lock speed. Still an issue. However I can fit a Sig amp in the lows, take Quafe booster, and throw in a subcontroller rig. This gets my frigate lock time down to 8.5 seconds or so. Which is still bad- but semi playable (thanks to the macs speed, I can burn out against frigates- allowing me more time to lock them)

3. On grid mobility. Fitting dual nano in the lows My mach (snaked / linked / quafe) Is going 4.1K/S With heat. Align time of 9 seconds MWD on, 5sec no MWD

4. Mac has some nice DPS. However at 35+K (where the mac normally is sitting) Its DPS is around 600ish. This is really not impressive considering that many HAC's and cruisers can get close to this number. (Omen navy for example gets 500 DPS with heated scorch + Drones out to 46. Oracle gets 900DPS out to 80K with pulse. As for tank, you are looking at 900ish with heated PIth A type XL Booster, heated Invuln and a full set of siege link.

As you can see, a pirate BS with perfect skills, HG pirate implants, links, and drugs can slightly get around some issues. However it is by no means 'good'. Personally I think its pretty sad how hard I have to try, and how much I have to use to make this ship somewhat useable ingame.... CCPlease!
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2015-01-21 16:21:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#83 - 2015-01-21 16:38:04 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.


I would love to watch your incursus take down a properly fit vindi.
Chessur
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#84 - 2015-01-21 16:43:00 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.


Any BS in the game can easily disptach a single frigate. End of story. Its not a single frig that is the problem.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#85 - 2015-01-21 16:50:58 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.


Any BS in the game can easily disptach a single frigate. End of story. Its not a single frig that is the problem.


Really? And how do u plan on killing an incursus, enyo, or ishkur, that gets in close? Your drones will be shot down before u do any significant damage and ur guns will not hit them. I don't care how many webs u have. I know because I have lost several BS to this exact situation
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-01-21 16:52:19 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.


I would love to watch your incursus take down a properly fit vindi.


Vindi is a rare exception because it has a 90 percent web. It and the Mach are the only decent BS.
Chessur
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#87 - 2015-01-21 16:53:39 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.


I would love to watch your incursus take down a properly fit vindi.


Vindi is a rare exception because it has a 90 percent web. It and the Mach are the only decent BS.


Disagree.

Apoc. Navy
Cruise Phoon
Barghest
Mach
Bhallgorn
Nightmare
VIndi
Apoc

Are all useable imo
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#88 - 2015-01-21 16:55:38 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.


Any BS in the game can easily disptach a single frigate. End of story. Its not a single frig that is the problem.


I am so confident I am willing to test that theory. Get your best tech 1 battleship and I will take my incursus. No ridiculous fit like all smart bombs in the highs. And I will show h my point
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#89 - 2015-01-21 16:56:30 UTC
Chessur wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
Shelom Severasse wrote:
are battleships kind of in a sore spot right now? sure.

but if you just say "moar damage application" or "moar utility" to the point that a solo BS can actually fight off a small frig gang effectively, then why would anyone EVER fly something smaller than a BS?

you would completely remove pvp in smaller hulls because why fly a frig when you can fly a BS that can kill everything.

should BSs be looked at? im not against it, but they most certainly do NOT need an all around buff.

EDIT: grammar, spelling, etc


The answer to that question is simple. Why would anyone not fly a battleship if they were made more capable?

Number one the sheer cost. Many players can't afford to fit a battleship properly, including rigs and so on. To fit a BS well you are talking well over 500 mill.

The other is the skill requirements to fly one effectively. You all know there is a difference between being able to fly a ship, and being able to FLY a ship. BS have a steep SP requirement to get the best from them.

Third is the apparent weaknesses of them, and thus the increased risk. BS are slow, align slow, warp slow, target slow. They have next to no ability to escape a fight they can not win and next to no ability to lock a target down that does not want to fight. This by itself makes them less desirable compared to smaller vessels.

With all the statements above, BS should at least be able to put up a better fight. If they can't escape, and they can't lock people down that don't want to fight, and you spent an ungodly amount building it and training for it, it should be able to fight like a battleship. The simple presence of one should make someone think twice about attacking it without considerable firepower. As of right now I have zero fear in my incursus of any turret based BS in the game.


I would love to watch your incursus take down a properly fit vindi.


Vindi is a rare exception because it has a 90 percent web. It and the Mach are the only decent BS.


Disagree.

Apoc. Navy
Cruise Phoon
Barghest
Mach
Bhallgorn
Nightmare
VIndi
Apoc

Are all useable imo


Still waiting for you to explain how u will take down that frigate with your BS
big miker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#90 - 2015-01-21 16:58:43 UTC  |  Edited by: big miker
You guys did not even check out my vid blapping frigates with battleship sized weapons Shocked

It's all there.
Paranoid Loyd
#91 - 2015-01-21 16:59:03 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Chessur wrote:


Any BS in the game can easily disptach a single frigate. End of story. Its not a single frig that is the problem.


I am so confident I am willing to test that theory. Get your best tech 1 battleship and I will take my incursus. No ridiculous fit like all smart bombs in the highs. And I will show h my point

Lol Talk about biting off more than you can chew.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Chessur
Fweddit
Free Range Chikuns
#92 - 2015-01-21 17:02:37 UTC
Still waiting for you to explain how u will take down that frigate with your BS[/quote]

In the case of the nightmare- I am going to web you, ab away at 2.5K/S while hitting you with 1300 DPS and dual heav neuts.

IN the case of the phoon / bhargest I am going to not move. Web you, load precision take crash and kill you.

In the case of the Bhallgorn, i am going to dual web you, dual neut you and move away killing you with 1K dps

Vindi will not move, load Antimatter, web you and kill you

Apoc (Assuming not starting on zero) will OH MWD and burn away. Tracking bonused multi with 32K optimal, with a web. Your dead.

Napoc will do what the apoc will- only better.

Mac will just be faster than your incursis.... so yah. You will be heavy neuted, burned away from and blapped with 1300DPS RF EMP.

All BS will also release a filight of light drones.

Stop talking to me like I don't know how to PvP. This is asinine.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2015-01-21 17:04:18 UTC
I'm not biting off more then I can chew. I have seen it happen again and again. One frigate gets under your guns and it's all over. They will shoot down your drones and u will no longer be able to damage them. Even dual webbed, u will not even touch a frigate under 3000m. So how do u plan getting out of that?
big miker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#94 - 2015-01-21 17:05:50 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
I'm not biting off more then I can chew. I have seen it happen again and again. One frigate gets under your guns and it's all over. They will shoot down your drones and u will no longer be able to damage them. Even dual webbed, u will not even touch a frigate under 3000m. So how do u plan getting out of that?


Falcon alt
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-01-21 17:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
Light drones are not worth loading. They are a joke in dps in pvp and will be shot down before even doing anything significant. And all the ships you mentioned for the most part are special faction ships with neuts. How do you plan on using ur MWD when being scrammed? And even if u are not being scrammed, how do u plan on going faster then a frig with your mwd???
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#96 - 2015-01-21 17:08:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
big miker wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I'm not biting off more then I can chew. I have seen it happen again and again. One frigate gets under your guns and it's all over. They will shoot down your drones and u will no longer be able to damage them. Even dual webbed, u will not even touch a frigate under 3000m. So how do u plan getting out of that?


Falcon alt


Ya because having ur alt warp in a falcon to save u means my point is invalid. *rolls eyes*
Paranoid Loyd
#97 - 2015-01-21 17:11:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Paranoid Loyd
Amanda Guido wrote:
I'm not biting off more then I can chew. I have seen it happen again and again. One frigate gets under your guns and it's all over. They will shoot down your drones and u will no longer be able to damage them. Even dual webbed, u will not even touch a frigate under 3000m. So how do u plan getting out of that?
You are not arguing with your average pilot that doesn't know how to kill things is all i'm saying. He is one of the few people that posts that doesn't speak above his ability. All of his advice is sound.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#98 - 2015-01-21 17:12:05 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:


Light drones are a total joke which will be shot down before doing anything significant. Any t1 frig can tank a full set of lights long enough to shoot them all down easy. Almost all the BS you mentioned are faction and able to do things most BS are not. But how do you plan on using a med to move away from from a frigate who is scamming you? And even if you are not being scrammed, how do you plan on outmwding a frigate? I honk it's pretty obvious u don't know what you are talking about


lulz, have fun killing light drones with no cap.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2015-01-21 17:15:35 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:


Light drones are a total joke which will be shot down before doing anything significant. Any t1 frig can tank a full set of lights long enough to shoot them all down easy. Almost all the BS you mentioned are faction and able to do things most BS are not. But how do you plan on using a med to move away from from a frigate who is scamming you? And even if you are not being scrammed, how do you plan on outmwding a frigate? I honk it's pretty obvious u don't know what you are talking about


lulz, have fun killing light drones with no cap.


And if ur in a ship that does not have a neut? I wasn't aware that all BS had a neut
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2015-01-21 17:17:52 UTC
Paranoid Loyd wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
I'm not biting off more then I can chew. I have seen it happen again and again. One frigate gets under your guns and it's all over. They will shoot down your drones and u will no longer be able to damage them. Even dual webbed, u will not even touch a frigate under 3000m. So how do u plan getting out of that?
You are not arguing with your average pilot that doesn't know how to kill things is all i'm saying. He is one of the few people that posts that doesn't speak above his ability. All of his advice is sound.


I'm sure he is competent. But I know for a fact that without a neut or being a drone boat with drone damage bonuses, you will be helpless to any frigate that comes by. And him telling me that he thinks he can move faster then a frigate with his mwd Apoc is laughable