These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Warfare & Tactics

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Battleships, and their use

First post
Author
Khald Hilitari
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2015-01-20 04:26:52 UTC
Battleships needing some fleet support to be effective is not the same thing as battleships being completely useless.

Sure, in a one on one fight a frigate has an edge on a BS, frigate can whittle his target down and BS can't hit because of transversal. Range beats transversal. You take that same frigate and BS matchup and make it a two on two: two BS vs. two frigates, the BS have a very real chance of coming out the victor because the frigates are either going to double up on one BS or they'll each try to take one BS. In the first scenario the free BS can back up to get good transversals and end those frigates, and in the second the BS can separate out and take out the frigate on the other BS.

I get that you love your hyperion, I really do, but just because the hyperion is subpar doesn't mean that battleships in general are subpar. And a raven should be able to have a perma tank higher than anything a single assault frigate could throw at it.
ISD Supogo
ISD BH
#42 - 2015-01-20 04:44:45 UTC
Thread has been moved to Warfare & Tactics.

ISD BH Supogo

Bughunter

Equipment Certification and Anomaly Investigations Division (ECAID)

Interstellar Services Department

Pok Nibin
Doomheim
#43 - 2015-01-20 04:44:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Pok Nibin
The more it's explained away the more the point is affirmed. However, it's a relative world filled with "it all depends". So, making blanket statements at the get-go is no-win. No brainer enough for yah?

Everything I've ever heard or read about all ships includes "except..." There is no one ship good, hands down, in all situations. All ships require circumstances to allow their fullest potential, and all ships can have those circmstances changed and that potential negated. It's as simple as that. I don't think anyone is saying anything but that.

I think there's a tendency to imagine the BS as having a significantly dominant role. It's counter-intuitive in that sense to imagine two frigs bringing one helplessly down. It's doable, yes. When using a BS it's damned important to bear in mind. Even in running missions, you better have some plan for those in-close drones and frigs. Smart bombs anyone? DRONES? (Standard remedy for the gnats on the field.)

What makes EVE "EVE" is the fact that no one ship, or ship class, dominates the field. All have their vulnerabilities. What players should bear in mind is, the environment is attuned to itself, not you. If you imagine yourself flying a certain ship and wish for certain results to make your dream come true...ain't gonna happen. You have to match the ship to your dream, or match your dream to the ship.

That being said, I, too, think the battleship has been nerfed into obsolesence; but for level 4 missioning. I also think T3 ships are unnecessary and here only to feed the appetites of gamers who wish to dine on an endless stream of new shinies.

The right to free speech doesn't automatically carry with it the right to be taken seriously.

Memphis Baas
#44 - 2015-01-20 05:03:46 UTC
Forget about RL navy ships and what they historically did, it doesn't really apply to EVE.

Battleships used to be THE ships to use, but then CCP added HACs and T3 cruisers, so combat has adapted. T2 cruisers screw up the playing field, and we don't have the same number of options when it comes to T2 battleships.

As soon as CCP adds HABs, guess what, everyone will fly battleships again. Or course, a battleship with HAC-level resistances AND 6+ (mid or low) slots to fit MORE resistances will be somewhat ridiculous. Maybe they change Marauders to have 8 weapons slots and KEEP the 100% bonus to damage, see if people like them then.
Trevor Dalech
Nobody in Local
Of Sound Mind
#45 - 2015-01-20 06:33:39 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:


I mean seriously, a BS poses almost zero threat to anything smaller then a BC and can EASILY be overcome by any t1, t2, frig or cruiser that has any sense and the ability to get in close. Sure it will take a while, but eventually you will run out of cap, or booster charges, and that Ishkur will take your billion dollar paperweight


The last time I locked a battleship in a frigate, I was nicely orbiting close, whittling down his tank.

Then he finally locked me...

... then my cap disappeared in a puff of smoke...

and then he webbed and pointed me and launched a flight of light drones.
Swanky nutjob
Holding Inc.
#46 - 2015-01-20 06:56:06 UTC
Provence Tristram wrote:
The general state of battleships IS rather distressing. I often feel like EVE should just rename itself "world of cruisers."



It's not world of cruisers but world of sentry drones and MWD Ishtars. Bombers are now too easy to use and both killed the battleship in most situations. Unless you wish to resort to either mach fleets or defensive navy apocs with triage archons.
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#47 - 2015-01-20 08:39:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Amanda Guido wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
... and real world battleships did so well unescorted or caught unawares:

Battle of Taranto (6 battleships lost mainly to biplanes)
Pearl Harbor (8 battleships lost or out of action entirely due to aircraft)
Bismarck (damaged by a biplane before being caught and sunk by a surface fleet)
Yamato (sunk by aircraft)

many more examples


This is exactly why BS were decommissioned after WW2


Trying to compare the real world to EVE is an exercise in silliness, I'm sorry (though, to a degree, I am about to foolishly embark on it nonetheless).

On Earth, Battleships were only valuable as weapon systems so long as the range for tactical action was governed by the horizon (or, at best, the range of early on-ship radar units). In the age of the airplane and, later, the missile, battleships couldn't get close enough to their enemies to damage them. The concept, however, is still viable in EVE because A) there is no horizon, and B) gun-based weapon systems can lash out far enough to harm any enemy that might damage the BS.

The PROBLEM with battleships in EVE is that ships can, to employ the colloquialism, 'get under their guns.' In the real world, this is why BBs mounted secondary and tertiary armaments. Only HMS Dreadnought completely dispensed with the former (and had light numbers of the latter) -- a flaw that was quickly rectified in subsequent battleship classes.

In EVE, we have the 'big guns' on our battleships, but none of the secondary weapon systems that would make them truly devastating combatants for all they faced. I understand that the 'give and take' of having certain ships fulfill certain roles is a necessary component of the EVE universe (I disagree with it, however -- I think they should have taken the real-world approach of having different classes fulfill differing roles but each being potentially dangerous to another, or designed to engage opposing members of their own classes), but it feels like battleships, for the amount of skills and ISK necessary to fly them, suffer too much of a penalty against inferior opponents.

Cruisers, in particular, should just be obliterated by BSes -- even the tech 2s (and maybe even 3s). Frigates? Eh... they're as much fighter jets as they are equivalent to real-world frigates. But, again, how much damage would a lone Zero be able to do to the USS Alabama shooting every gun in her AA suite at it?

I digress, however, I am meandering. The point stands: battleships feel like they've lost their job. They were never ships 'of the line,' because there never was a line to form. They get knocked around inferior opponents, still get mauled by superior ones, and are expensive. I really feel like battleships -- maybe even just the tier 2s -- should have a couple of tier I slots devoted solely to cruiser-sized weapon systems so that they wouldn't have to special-fit just to take down a lone cheap-o boat.
Trajan Unknown
Reikoku
PURPLE HELMETED WARRIORS
#48 - 2015-01-20 09:02:43 UTC
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
... and real world battleships did so well unescorted or caught unawares:

Battle of Taranto (6 battleships lost mainly to biplanes)
Pearl Harbor (8 battleships lost or out of action entirely due to aircraft)
Bismarck (damaged by a biplane before being caught and sunk by a surface fleet)
Yamato (sunk by aircraft)

many more examples



Thanks for saving me the time to write exactly that. :)

@OP you might like to have a look on US fleet compostions mostly the pacific ones. You will find a few "big ships" and tons of support to protect them, namely the carriers.
Provence Tristram
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#49 - 2015-01-20 09:19:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Provence Tristram
Trajan Unknown wrote:
Hasikan Miallok wrote:
... and real world battleships did so well unescorted or caught unawares:

Battle of Taranto (6 battleships lost mainly to biplanes)
Pearl Harbor (8 battleships lost or out of action entirely due to aircraft)
Bismarck (damaged by a biplane before being caught and sunk by a surface fleet)
Yamato (sunk by aircraft)

many more examples



Thanks for saving me the time to write exactly that. :)

@OP you might like to have a look on US fleet compostions mostly the pacific ones. You will find a few "big ships" and tons of support to protect them, namely the carriers.


And you might find that dreadnoughts were at their height during the first world war, not the second (they were eclipsed by carriers before WWII even began, even if some officials in the world's navies didn't yet realize it), so if we're going to talk shop about BSes (I'm so tired of that -- they're BBs), it would be ridiculous to just gloss over WWI. And, even in WWII, lone battleships (need I mention Bismarck?) represented an almighty threat to convoys, general shipping, and lesser combatants.

In neither war could a single destroyer or light cruiser (or even heavy cruiser) hope to sink a battleship if they happened to meet in the middle of nowhere. This is the problem with EVE's design for BSes -- not that they are better served by being part of a more balanced fleet comp, but that without a balanced fleet comp they are screwed. Which cannot be said for cruisers or frigates. THAT is the problem.
Catalytic morphisis
Space Mutts
Space-Mutts
#50 - 2015-01-20 10:00:46 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
Hal Morsh wrote:
Do you know how sad a frigate would be if you hit him?


Sure, but once they are under 10 km, that will never happen.


Tell that to the 90% webs of a vindicator and a 6000 Damage volley at 3km

Actual Link free and scout free solo PvP'er

Aralyn Cormallen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#51 - 2015-01-20 10:15:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Aralyn Cormallen
People who complain BS's are useless are trying to use a spoon to cut a steak. For crying out loud, use a knife or go have an ice cream, you are doing no-one a service poking away at that steak in the hope this time it might cut. (Disclaimer - Baltec is an ace spoon-user who don't need no knife).

A BS has its use and place, as does a frigate and a cruiser. I'll agree T3's have kinda crapped all over the meta in general, but once they get their turn under the microscope, every ship class (not just BS's) will see a bit more use. BS fleets are alive and well, and seeing plenty of use - a little less currently than in previous cycles of the meta (blame bombers, T3's and power projection nerfs), but they are far from vanished completely.
big miker
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2015-01-20 11:18:10 UTC  |  Edited by: big miker
I like Battleships for solo ( + links )

Check out my BS vid Ferocious

BearBearBearBearBearBear
Christine Peeveepeeski
Low Sec Concepts
#53 - 2015-01-20 12:31:52 UTC
If you are solo in a battleship then choose one that can handle frigates.

In fw for example you are highly likely to get swarmed by frigs and dessies so i would take a tempest. Twin neuts, twin webs, 800-900dps and drones. It can handle most situations apart from the obligatory blob but frigs are doomed. Kill everything close thats scramming you and then mjd the **** away from kiters.

Someone lands a solo brawling bs? Just kite out of scram then mjd.

Sure, its not going to take on a well co-ordinated gang without back up but solo against anything else its a win machine.

BS can be beasts, just think outside fleet fit mentality. The major issue is not what they can handle, its the warp speed but i can handle that with all the ships bring you.
Aiyshimin
Descendant Command
#54 - 2015-01-20 14:08:58 UTC
Battleships are ok if you accept three simple rules:

1) they are useless in fleets unless they are Napocs with triage facing shield Ishtars
2) they can't be used solo
3) you can't choose your fights, they choose you

Throbbing pile of steaming ****, which was obvious when they were rebalanced, too little tank, too little damage for their long list of shortcomings.

How to fix them:

- bump T1 EHP on navy levels
- give all of them one more slot
- double their sensor strength


Josef Djugashvilis
#55 - 2015-01-20 14:10:31 UTC
Hal Morsh wrote:
Do you know how sad a frigate would be if you hit him?


Dead sad?

This is not a signature.

X Gallentius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#56 - 2015-01-20 17:02:22 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Forget about RL navy ships and what they historically did, it doesn't really apply to EVE.
They brought an anti-support fleet with them. Otherwise they were vulnerable to small ships. ZOMG RL IS JUST LIKE EVE!!!!
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2015-01-20 17:33:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Amanda Guido
X Gallentius wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Forget about RL navy ships and what they historically did, it doesn't really apply to EVE.
They brought an anti-support fleet with them. Otherwise they were vulnerable to small ships. ZOMG RL IS JUST LIKE EVE!!!!


In the real world, BS were moving battle stations. They had weapon systems for any target. They were not seen solo because no ship was seen solo. Nations moved ships in fleets. But no destroyer, or frigate, or any other lone ship, besides maybe a carrier, or another battleship, would ever be stupid enough to engage a lone battleship.

Battleships were rendered obsolete after the invention of carriers and air power, which made them massive targets who required air support. The carrier then became the new battleship, and the battleship was then restricted to a shore bombardment role.

Back to EVE!! My point is, what good is a ship, even in a fleet, that needs other smaller ships to kill off "smaller ships". What then is the purpose of even fielding a battleship, unless there are capitals or POS on the field?? If their only manageable targets are large stationary targets, and they need the backup of other ships to kill everything else, it's a waste to even field them!

That's like me saying "Ya man, I'm a badass fighter, but for me to win a fight I need to have my 5 best friends with me". How tough would you think I was??
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#58 - 2015-01-20 17:35:00 UTC
Amanda Guido wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Forget about RL navy ships and what they historically did, it doesn't really apply to EVE.
They brought an anti-support fleet with them. Otherwise they were vulnerable to small ships. ZOMG RL IS JUST LIKE EVE!!!!


In the real world, BS were moving battle stations. They had weapon systems for any target. They were not seen solo because no ship was seen solo. Nations moved ships in fleets. But no destroyer, or frigate, or any other lone ship, besides maybe a carrier, or another battleship would ever be stupid enough to engage a lone battleship.

Battleships were rendered obsolete after the invention of carriers and air power which made them massive targets which needed air support. The carrier then became the new battleship, and the battleship was then restricted to a shore bombardment role.

Back to EVE!! My point is, what good is a ship, even in a fleet, that needs other smaller ships to kill off "smaller ships". What then is the purpose of even fielding a battleship, unless there are capitals or POS on the field?? If their only manageable targets are large stationary targets, and they need the backup of other ships to kill everything else, it's a waste to even field them!

That's like me saying "Ya man, I'm a badass fighter, but for me to win a fight I need to have my 5 best friends with me". How tough would you think I was??


I hear vindi's are pretty good at killing smaller ships.
Amanda Guido
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2015-01-20 17:40:58 UTC
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Forget about RL navy ships and what they historically did, it doesn't really apply to EVE.
They brought an anti-support fleet with them. Otherwise they were vulnerable to small ships. ZOMG RL IS JUST LIKE EVE!!!!


In the real world, BS were moving battle stations. They had weapon systems for any target. They were not seen solo because no ship was seen solo. Nations moved ships in fleets. But no destroyer, or frigate, or any other lone ship, besides maybe a carrier, or another battleship would ever be stupid enough to engage a lone battleship.

Battleships were rendered obsolete after the invention of carriers and air power which made them massive targets which needed air support. The carrier then became the new battleship, and the battleship was then restricted to a shore bombardment role.

Back to EVE!! My point is, what good is a ship, even in a fleet, that needs other smaller ships to kill off "smaller ships". What then is the purpose of even fielding a battleship, unless there are capitals or POS on the field?? If their only manageable targets are large stationary targets, and they need the backup of other ships to kill everything else, it's a waste to even field them!

That's like me saying "Ya man, I'm a badass fighter, but for me to win a fight I need to have my 5 best friends with me". How tough would you think I was??


I hear vindi's are pretty good at killing smaller ships.


Well, a Vindi has a 90 percent web. But honestly, with my hyperion with two fed navy webs and a tracking computer, I still can not hit an orbiting close ab fit frigate. I have tested it with a friend. Once he's at 3000 km it doesn't matter what I have on him. The only damage I can put on him at that point is drones. Which are easily shot down and with my max drone skills put out about 100 dps. That's not enough to break their tank.

Granted I am using neutrons. Maybe I can fit smaller guns. But the tracking difference is negligible for the amount of power projection u lose.
Thanatos Marathon
Moira.
Villore Accords
#60 - 2015-01-20 17:58:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Thanatos Marathon
Amanda Guido wrote:
Thanatos Marathon wrote:
Amanda Guido wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Memphis Baas wrote:
Forget about RL navy ships and what they historically did, it doesn't really apply to EVE.
They brought an anti-support fleet with them. Otherwise they were vulnerable to small ships. ZOMG RL IS JUST LIKE EVE!!!!


In the real world, BS were moving battle stations. They had weapon systems for any target. They were not seen solo because no ship was seen solo. Nations moved ships in fleets. But no destroyer, or frigate, or any other lone ship, besides maybe a carrier, or another battleship would ever be stupid enough to engage a lone battleship.

Battleships were rendered obsolete after the invention of carriers and air power which made them massive targets which needed air support. The carrier then became the new battleship, and the battleship was then restricted to a shore bombardment role.

Back to EVE!! My point is, what good is a ship, even in a fleet, that needs other smaller ships to kill off "smaller ships". What then is the purpose of even fielding a battleship, unless there are capitals or POS on the field?? If their only manageable targets are large stationary targets, and they need the backup of other ships to kill everything else, it's a waste to even field them!

That's like me saying "Ya man, I'm a badass fighter, but for me to win a fight I need to have my 5 best friends with me". How tough would you think I was??


I hear vindi's are pretty good at killing smaller ships.


Well, a Vindi has a 90 percent web. But honestly, with my hyperion with two fed navy webs and a tracking computer, I still can not hit an orbiting close ab fit frigate. I have tested it with a friend. Once he's at 3000 km it doesn't matter what I have on him. The only damage I can put on him at that point is drones. Which are easily shot down and with my max drone skills put out about 100 dps. That's not enough to break their tank.

Granted I am using neutrons. Maybe I can fit smaller guns. But the tracking difference is negligible for the amount of power projection u lose.


A vindi has 2 90 percent webs. Also, Hypes suck at shooting frigs, pick a different battleship.