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[Proteus - January] Recon ships

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Iebi Vyethar
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#1421 - 2014-12-21 19:59:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Iebi Vyethar
Can you guys please stop with this PvP - PvE relation nonsense ? What you define (and with that I mean trying to create a different genre within this specific game) as PvE is often, and for most people, a source of income. It affects low and null sec space, militia and wardecced corps which is almost everyone - so trying to make a fictional difference between two fictional player types in this game is imo pretty useless.

also
Quote:
If i want to catch someone i dont mind putting effort in. The anatomy of a kill often consists of much more than warping to someone and pressing F1. Setting up the kill can often be the most rewarding part.

broke my heart and made me cry
Erasmus Grant
Order of the Eclipse
Triumvirate.
#1422 - 2014-12-21 20:28:57 UTC
Being a scout in real life I know that not being detected is half the battle, but you also got to be able to detect and find the enemy. Is there someway to do this and make it unique to Recon ships? Maybe a more refine d-scan or ability to link up with other recon ships to triangulate a targets position?
Aiyshimin
Shiva Furnace
#1423 - 2014-12-21 20:32:21 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Stitch Kaneland wrote:
This coming from someone who exclusively solo pvps. Im not afraid of change. This also enables more solo tactics to utilize and defend against. Making the game more exciting and creating new content/counters.

And my coming from someone who exclusively solo pve, yet you will have adventage. Why? What counter? This change breaks game for me. You can land on grid undetected without targeting delay. Fun for you, not for me. We don't have even chances. It's not the flying, or way of thinking that gave you the advantage, it's OP hull bonus. I have no idea how to defend against, for now.


The delay between you seeing him on grid and him being able to lock you is as long as cloak targeting delay.

So after Proteus you just have to make sure to burn >80km from warp-in point when doing PVE. If you are in a ship that can PVE aligned, that's even better.

What chages is that you may land on grid with sebod/reseboed recons that you coudn't see on dscan. Combat probes are mandatory equipment for every ship in null and lowsec, if you are not in gang with a prober.
Esmanpir
Raccoon's with LightSabers
#1424 - 2014-12-21 20:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Esmanpir
"@ CCP Rise: What kind of logic is it, to say "more fights will happen if people do not know what awaits them and so chose to fight where they normally would have ran away!" - think about what you just said there: You *force* frustration because you deny people to make the right decisions based on their scouting and experience. That is what people makes quit and saying "what a damn waste of time!" after they ran into a complete unwinnable fight just because the other side had "invisible units". Jesus..."

More fights will happen for those who are risk adverse or those who try to mostly stay out of PVP. As they try to continue in their game play of PVE, mining, FW, whatever, they will eventually come to a false sense of security and get caught and killed. Everyone wins, Pirates, PVP'rs, gankers, except those who play to PVE, Mine, etc. Standard CCP thought process...
Madner Kami
Durendal Ascending
#1425 - 2014-12-21 20:43:10 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:

I can tell you what will happen most likely:
- Less fights because people are risk averse
- A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.


I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.


By your reasoning, playing the game blinded, deafened and with both hands bound behind the back increases the fun factor. Frankly put, you have no idea wtf you are babbeling about.
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1426 - 2014-12-21 20:57:25 UTC
TrouserDeagle wrote:
but pve people are already completely immune to pvp. massive nerfs to your immunity are a good thing.


But it's not nerfed! A tool that created margin for error has been or will be rendered useless! From my observations of player behaviour i can guarantee you that this will result in less fights happening since players will more often preemptively resort to the ultimate tool of pvp immunity: warp, cloak, dock!

A good change on the other hand would be to hide recons from d-scan by angle or range since this would create even wider margin for error. Juicy Target X sits in a plex and he will only notice a recon when scanning at a 5% angle and because of the same scanning malus he will just notice the recon when it's right at the gate. In the heat of shooting rats he misses the beacon center by a few degrees too many and ofc he's not aligned when the 70km point lachesis warps in. In case of absolute d-scan immunity however Jucy Target X would have preemptively warped as soon as Stealthy Hunter Y entered system. Just as nullsec ratters just warp to station. In order to highten the probability of fights you can`t just make them blind, you have to give them something!
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1427 - 2014-12-21 21:03:53 UTC
Esmanpir wrote:
The delay between you seeing him on grid and him being able to lock you is as long as cloak targeting delay.

I have no idea what you talking about. When he's coming out of warp? Deceleration?
Aiyshimin wrote:
So after Proteus you just have to make sure to burn >80km from warp-in point when doing PVE. If you are in a ship that can PVE aligned, that's even better.

You have no idea what you talking about. Perfect conditions? In PvE? I cannot dictate where i will be on site, i go where loot cans are. Sometimes they are close sometimes more than 80 km.
Esmanpir wrote:
What chages is that you may land on grid with sebod/reseboed recons that you coudn't see on dscan. Combat probes are mandatory equipment for every ship in null and lowsec, if you are not in gang with a prober.

Sure everybody will be using combat probes now, that will create even more content. Everybody in the system will be jumping into safe spots/stations every time i want to find explo site. Ppl are risk awerse. How many stories did you hear about players want to do some pew pew and nobody wanted to engage them?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1428 - 2014-12-21 21:11:53 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
Esmanpir wrote:
The delay between you seeing him on grid and him being able to lock you is as long as cloak targeting delay.

I have no idea what you talking about. When he's coming out of warp? Deceleration?
Aiyshimin wrote:
So after Proteus you just have to make sure to burn >80km from warp-in point when doing PVE. If you are in a ship that can PVE aligned, that's even better.

You have no idea what you talking about. Perfect conditions? In PvE? I cannot dictate where i will be on site, i go where loot cans are. Sometimes they are close sometimes more than 80 km.
Esmanpir wrote:
What chages is that you may land on grid with sebod/reseboed recons that you coudn't see on dscan. Combat probes are mandatory equipment for every ship in null and lowsec, if you are not in gang with a prober.

Sure everybody will be using combat probes now, that will create even more content. Everybody in the system will be jumping into safe spots/stations every time i want to find explo site. Ppl are risk awerse. How many stories did you hear about players want to do some pew pew and nobody wanted to engage them?


And everybody squeezing a combat probe launcher on their ships and start maniacly probing for recons as soon as somebody enters their system will surely be fun and make them renew their sub. No wait.... C'mon CCP you can do better than this! Make scanning more challenging and give combat recons a special ability in that regard instead of this dumb, destructive immunity!
afkalt
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1429 - 2014-12-21 21:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: afkalt
All this drama would make a lot more sense if cloaks didn't exist. Invisible ships aren't new. Invisible instant tackle isn't new. There are now a couple less 100% safe areas in eve - OH THE HUMANITY!!

Quite frankly the volume of people crying they might not be able to avoid every fight, ever or only ever engage in favourable circumstance is shameful. Get back to high sec.

I do feel for the Pirates, targets will thin a little at first. But it shouldn't last.
Aapir
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1430 - 2014-12-21 21:34:35 UTC
Shaleb Heworo wrote:

First of all: Flying with links aint solo and personally i wouldn't touch that ****** mechanic. The Huginn can have missiles too but right now it makes a great arty boat. At 20km and with double webs it wil apply full dps in that role. The Rapier on the other Hand lacks the high slots and the second damage bonus to make a good arty boat therefore it`s better off with missiles. Dps isn't that anemic as you said. Especially when you factor in full damage application all the way down to dessies but i leave it to you to eft that yourself.


I honestly don't care so much how far the rapier shoots and if you want to shoot mans solo with it go ahead. But the huginn is just a square peg trying to go through a round hole. It can only barely fit meta 650 artillery and it does so by downgrading its tank to two meta shield extenders. It doesn't have the grid to be a great arty boat, not by a long shot. As it stands the only dps it's going to do in a fleet larger than 5 is going to be with its drones.
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1431 - 2014-12-21 21:40:25 UTC
afkalt wrote:
All this drama would make a lot more sense if cloaks didn't exist. Invisible ships aren't new. Invisible instant tackle isn't new. There are now a couple less 100% safe areas in eve - OH THE HUMANITY!!

Cloaks have drawbacks. Invisible instant tackle? What are you talking about? Ask players why they are not leaving hisec? We have one more reason they won't. If we don't want 100% safe areas in EvE lets remove d-scan completely. You take what's land on grid or leave, only probes and visual scouting.
afkalt wrote:
I do feel for the Pirates, targets will thin a little at first. But it shouldn't last.

It shouldn't? So you know the date when this will be rolled back?Big smile

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Shaleb Heworo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1432 - 2014-12-21 21:41:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Shaleb Heworo
Aapir wrote:
Shaleb Heworo wrote:

First of all: Flying with links aint solo and personally i wouldn't touch that ****** mechanic. The Huginn can have missiles too but right now it makes a great arty boat. At 20km and with double webs it wil apply full dps in that role. The Rapier on the other Hand lacks the high slots and the second damage bonus to make a good arty boat therefore it`s better off with missiles. Dps isn't that anemic as you said. Especially when you factor in full damage application all the way down to dessies but i leave it to you to eft that yourself.


I honestly don't care so much how far the rapier shoots and if you want to shoot mans solo with it go ahead. But the huginn is just a square peg trying to go through a round hole. It can only barely fit meta 650 artillery and it does so by downgrading its tank to two meta shield extenders. It doesn't have the grid to be a great arty boat, not by a long shot. As it stands the only dps it's going to do in a fleet larger than 5 is going to be with its drones.


Yes, you are absolutely right about the Huginn. I did the eft myself afterwards. Huginn definately needs much more grid to fit 720's or a different bonus
Squatdog
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1433 - 2014-12-21 21:49:23 UTC
Fyery Phoenix wrote:
A lot has been said already, but let me stress this again:

- PvPers will love this (cause they can catch people off guard now)
- PvEers will HATE this (cause even if you know your DScan, it's not going to protect you any longer)

I would suggest the following compromise:

-->> Make the recon ships only non-detectable if they are more than 1 AU away from the scanner. <<--
-->> Give them a DScan Range Bonus (like 30 AU) instead <<--


-> This would still give them a surprise moment when trying to catch people
->They can scan other ships while outside of 1 AU while undetected
-> PvE people can still detect the recon ships when they are very close, but they have to be even more on guard

I really hope CCP will rethink their decision to hide ships from DScan. This would seriously break the game in many places.


'PVP expert' with 50-20 kill/loss record? Big surprise.

Let me fix your post for you:

- Gankbears will love this (cause they can catch people off guard now, with zero skill)
- Everyone else will HATE this (cause even if you know your DScan, it's not going to protect you any longer)
Hard Carnt
Barney Gumble Combat Club
End of Life
#1434 - 2014-12-21 21:56:51 UTC
Bring back square targeting icons, the old soundtrack and nano domis. It's all a conspiracy to get people to purchase more plex
Il Feytid
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1435 - 2014-12-21 22:23:23 UTC
Madner Kami wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:

I can tell you what will happen most likely:
- Less fights because people are risk averse
- A 2nd account with a Prober at all times will be must, not an option.


I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.


By your reasoning, playing the game blinded, deafened and with both hands bound behind the back increases the fun factor. Frankly put, you have no idea wtf you are babbeling about.

You're being obtuse.
Krystyn
Serenity Rising LLC
Controlled Chaos
#1436 - 2014-12-21 22:30:16 UTC
New Ratting/Plex plan: Immediately dock the second anyone enters local who isn't a blue.

New PVP plan fly unscannable fleets and gank people or fly lots of cheap suicide atrons.

Lame
Moraguth
Ranger Corp
Vae. Victis.
#1437 - 2014-12-21 22:40:10 UTC
Krystyn wrote:
New Ratting/Plex plan: Immediately dock the second anyone enters local who isn't a blue.

New PVP plan fly unscannable fleets and gank people or fly lots of cheap suicide atrons.

Lame


you forgot:

New WH plan, get out of the WH before the patch hits.

I got a Feature Added!

Stop calling an Abaddon "abba-dawn".  It is "uh-bad-in" dictionary.com/abaddon
Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#1438 - 2014-12-21 22:48:23 UTC
How the hell does this affect WHs? We don't use ships that you dscan anyway.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.
Ehud Gera
Wildcard.
Boundary Experts
#1439 - 2014-12-21 22:54:19 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
How the hell does this affect WHs? We don't use ships that you dscan anyway.


Wait.... you can rat while cloaked? Teach me this Voodoo!
Arla Sarain
#1440 - 2014-12-21 23:07:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

I think this is a complex debate and I'm sure that none of us understand player behavior completely, but my experience is actually the opposite of what you're saying.

Yes, people are risk averse, they want to make good decisions when they're taking risks and that often leads being conservative. That's exactly why I like this kind of mechanic. People want to do the fun thing and take more engagements, but when they have enough information to know that they aren't the favorite they shy away from fighting. However, when some information is obscured they become optimistic and take more risks. I've seen players so willing to make decisions that are likely too risky simply because they lack perfect information. Jumping into gate camps where positional information isn't guaranteed, engaging on stations with people docked, fighting in systems with more in local than can be accounted for, etc. These mechanics that obscure information give people the excuses needed to take risks. Take the example given somewhere in this thread of a low sec camp with 2 Vexors and 2 Rooks. Before these changes, the gang considering fighting them never would because they know they can't deal with the Rooks. After, they won't see them and so they will probably engage. That's more fights because people are risk averse.

The negative side for me is your other bullet point. Because people don't want to take unnecessary risk they will work very hard, sometimes doing something very boring or difficult, just to get at those last pieces of information. And they should. But we would want to avoid mechanics that obligate people to this kind of behavior too heavily without enough positive side to make the mechanic worthwhile.

I would be more worried with this mechanic that people have to spend a lot of time running probe scans when they really don't want to be than that they are avoiding engagements because of the possibility of Recons. I don't think this will be a problem but we'll have to wait and see.

Just remove D-SCAN for everyone all together then. At least then it justifies your notion for ALL ships. As in surprises everywhere and for everyone.