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Dev blog: EVE Industry - All you want to know

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Oma Lorche
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#301 - 2014-07-22 15:24:48 UTC
Hello.
I have one question. I couldn't find any information about invention time change in any of the devblogs.
Crius is here and now inventing 125mm gatling T2 Bpc takes 7hours at the POS. Is that working as it should?

If it is I'd like to present my opinion which is:
That's bad change. It puts me out of business.




Kukihara Akachi
Doomheim
#302 - 2014-07-22 16:51:13 UTC
I don't care about over-researched BPOs, that's not relevant. What are relevant are two things:

1) All your previously perfect capital BPO:s are no longer perfect.

A Moros BPO used to perfect when it's ME6. Now all previously perfect capital BPO:s are no longer perfect (ME9). So every single capital BPO owner who had a perfect print were screwed by CCP Greyscale or whoever he was, and the "no functional loss" (or whatever) is a lie.

2) The very poorly planned change made it sure that it REALLY makes a difference that the cap prints are no longer perfect. With the Moros blueprint, for instance, you get the following part savings per ME level:

0->1 = components saved: 0
1->2 = components saved: 0
2->3 = components saved: 0
3->4 = components saved: 6 (65 million saved)
4->5 = components saved: 2 (17 million saved)
5->6 = components saved: 2 (22 million saved)
6->7 = components saved: 3 (34.4 million saved)
7->8 = components saved: 3 (30.1 million saved)
8->9 = components saved: 0
9->10 = components saved: 6 (64.2 million saved)

Look how CCP said something like "fixed number of researchable levels with identical bonuses but increasing research time". Now look at the Moros levels. Now look back at what CCP said. Doesn't look like that was delivered.

CCP also said they're making industry more intuitive and transparent. Look at the Moros levels. Does it look more intuitive? No, I don't think so either. Does it look more transparent? No, because it requires you to get back to a capital print calculator before you can figure out what happens.

So, CCP 1) took your previously perfect capital prints and nerfed them to worse prints, and 2) made sure that those worse prints are a WHOLE LOT WORSE than a perfect one. That's pretty disappointing to be honest.

Heck, actually I don't even know if what I wrote is correct anymore, because I don't bother to log on anymore.
Mark Airuta
Continuous Improvement Limited
Goonswarm Federation
#303 - 2014-07-22 17:29:40 UTC
Not sure if this is intended in any way, or has already been mentioned, but when you show info on a researched BPO or BPC, the production time and the mineral costs shown do not reflect the research that has been done on it.
javer
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2014-07-22 18:10:39 UTC
Sir HyperChrist wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Aresti wrote:
"Build times are generally rank * 300 seconds."

The effect this appears it will have upon the T2 industry as a whole (BPO/BPC) concerns me, and I don't recall any previous discussion on it (granted, I might have missed it).

Currently some levels of frigates/cruisers take longer to build than others. HACs vs Logistics and AFs vs Intys for example. This change removes that distinction.

More importantly, the time to build T2 hulls from BPCs or BPOs on a whole appears to be vastly increasing due to the rank basis, while module build time appears to be vastly reduced. Focusing just on hulls here, can do another post for ammo/modules if needed. If I've made an error in the calculations somewhere let me know.

This is what it appears the calculation would be post patch, with extraFactor being a multiplier for ammo/capital builds. For the sake of simplicity, all builds are assumed to be in a station, TE at 20%, Industry 5, Adv Indy 5 and 4% implant with no team.

Formula: (rank*300*extraFactor)TE%*Industry Skill*Adv Indy skill*implant = prod time in seconds per run

New Numbers
Frigate: (400*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=70041.6 (1167.36m/19.46h/0.81d, or 37.01 within 30 days)
Destroyer: (600*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=105062.4 (1751.04m/29.18h/1.22d, or 24.67 within 30 days)
Cruiser: (800*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=140083.2 (2334.72m/38.91h/1.62d, or 18.5 within 30 days)
BC: (1000*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=175104 (2918.4m/48.64h/2.03/d or 14.8 within 30 days)
BS: (1200*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=210124.8 (3502.08m/58.37h/2.43d)
JFs: (4000*300*4)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=2801664 (46694.4m/778.24h/32.43d)

For simple comparison's sake, currently a player can build approximately 165 Intys, 102 AFs, 68 Interdictors, 52 Logistics, 25 HACs, 34 Recons or 25 Command ships in 30 days time. Blops are less than 1d16hr.

This is a pretty serious nerf to player productivity for hulls and will require individuals to use 2-3 characters to produce the same as 1 does now, assuming invention and BPC building. A quick look at module production looks like it has been increased by a factor of around 1.8 (1029 light ions before, 1897 after, 275 425mm IIs before, 632 after). Could we have some elaboration on the thoughts and intentions behind this please CCP?



There's *extensive* discussion with what's going on with the data here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345753&find=unread

The bottom line though is that we have attempted, hopefully with a decent degree of success, to ensure that throughput for invented items per character is roughly the same before and after, once you build in all the various bonuses available (see starbase bonuses, for example). If there's any significant mismatches post-release, let us know and we'll make adjustments!


I second this.
right now a Prorator bpo builds 51 units per month in a station, after patch only 18
a small T2 drone bpo builds 4125 units in a station, over 5500 at a pos (remotely), after patch only 2960
a medium T2 drone bpo is now at 2800 unites at a pos, which will drop to1480 in station (slightly more by using bpc's)
a large T2 drone now gives 1880 units at a pos. Only986 will remain after patch

A T2 BPO nerf has been long in the coming, but this patch they get nerfed twice: 50% more materials and 2 to 3 times less units produced for the examples above. And no transparency about all this before the patchnotes. Is this truly what you want?


well it took time but with ccp doing it, they dunno what incremental steps mean and so they took the sledge hammer out when a few more taps with a regular hammer would have done the job. Without going over the f-ing top, congrats on reducing amount of active subscriptions yet again and on making a hash out of the previously working access regulations for assembly lines, and taxation for a assembly line doesnt allow setups were the owner is charged diffrent than the rest. im so happy with having invested into upgrading a station about a year ago.

50% increase in t2 bpo materials=ohh no, you forgot to do the math again and so my monthly demand on the bpo's are actually down by 66% ie moon go is comming down in price from bpo's demand but up because ccp ****** up yet again in forcing more invention into working parts of the market
Barton Breau
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2014-07-22 18:16:20 UTC
Kukihara Akachi wrote:

2) The very poorly planned change made it sure that it REALLY makes a difference that the cap prints are no longer perfect. With the Moros blueprint, for instance, you get the following part savings per ME level:

0->1 = components saved: 0
1->2 = components saved: 0
2->3 = components saved: 0
3->4 = components saved: 6 (65 million saved)
4->5 = components saved: 2 (17 million saved)
5->6 = components saved: 2 (22 million saved)
6->7 = components saved: 3 (34.4 million saved)
7->8 = components saved: 3 (30.1 million saved)
8->9 = components saved: 0
9->10 = components saved: 6 (64.2 million saved)


Capital components are rather large, arent you just beaten by rounding?
Have you tried 100 moroses? (the bonus is now per batch, not job)
Promiscuous Female
GBS Logistics and Fives Support
#306 - 2014-07-22 19:18:17 UTC
javer wrote:
well it took time but with ccp doing it, they dunno what incremental steps mean and so they took the sledge hammer out when a few more taps with a regular hammer would have done the job. Without going over the f-ing top, congrats on reducing amount of active subscriptions yet again and on making a hash out of the previously working access regulations for assembly lines, and taxation for a assembly line doesnt allow setups were the owner is charged diffrent than the rest. im so happy with having invested into upgrading a station about a year ago.

50% increase in t2 bpo materials=ohh no, you forgot to do the math again and so my monthly demand on the bpo's are actually down by 66% ie moon go is comming down in price from bpo's demand but up because ccp ****** up yet again in forcing more invention into working parts of the market


t2 bpohavers, truly the bulwark of eve's subscription base
Laughable Xhosa Girl
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#307 - 2014-07-22 19:19:00 UTC
javer wrote:
Sir HyperChrist wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Aresti wrote:
"Build times are generally rank * 300 seconds."

The effect this appears it will have upon the T2 industry as a whole (BPO/BPC) concerns me, and I don't recall any previous discussion on it (granted, I might have missed it).

Currently some levels of frigates/cruisers take longer to build than others. HACs vs Logistics and AFs vs Intys for example. This change removes that distinction.

More importantly, the time to build T2 hulls from BPCs or BPOs on a whole appears to be vastly increasing due to the rank basis, while module build time appears to be vastly reduced. Focusing just on hulls here, can do another post for ammo/modules if needed. If I've made an error in the calculations somewhere let me know.

This is what it appears the calculation would be post patch, with extraFactor being a multiplier for ammo/capital builds. For the sake of simplicity, all builds are assumed to be in a station, TE at 20%, Industry 5, Adv Indy 5 and 4% implant with no team.

Formula: (rank*300*extraFactor)TE%*Industry Skill*Adv Indy skill*implant = prod time in seconds per run

New Numbers
Frigate: (400*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=70041.6 (1167.36m/19.46h/0.81d, or 37.01 within 30 days)
Destroyer: (600*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=105062.4 (1751.04m/29.18h/1.22d, or 24.67 within 30 days)
Cruiser: (800*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=140083.2 (2334.72m/38.91h/1.62d, or 18.5 within 30 days)
BC: (1000*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=175104 (2918.4m/48.64h/2.03/d or 14.8 within 30 days)
BS: (1200*300*1)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=210124.8 (3502.08m/58.37h/2.43d)
JFs: (4000*300*4)0.8*0.8*0.95*0.94=2801664 (46694.4m/778.24h/32.43d)

For simple comparison's sake, currently a player can build approximately 165 Intys, 102 AFs, 68 Interdictors, 52 Logistics, 25 HACs, 34 Recons or 25 Command ships in 30 days time. Blops are less than 1d16hr.

This is a pretty serious nerf to player productivity for hulls and will require individuals to use 2-3 characters to produce the same as 1 does now, assuming invention and BPC building. A quick look at module production looks like it has been increased by a factor of around 1.8 (1029 light ions before, 1897 after, 275 425mm IIs before, 632 after). Could we have some elaboration on the thoughts and intentions behind this please CCP?



There's *extensive* discussion with what's going on with the data here: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=345753&find=unread

The bottom line though is that we have attempted, hopefully with a decent degree of success, to ensure that throughput for invented items per character is roughly the same before and after, once you build in all the various bonuses available (see starbase bonuses, for example). If there's any significant mismatches post-release, let us know and we'll make adjustments!


I second this.
right now a Prorator bpo builds 51 units per month in a station, after patch only 18
a small T2 drone bpo builds 4125 units in a station, over 5500 at a pos (remotely), after patch only 2960
a medium T2 drone bpo is now at 2800 unites at a pos, which will drop to1480 in station (slightly more by using bpc's)
a large T2 drone now gives 1880 units at a pos. Only986 will remain after patch

A T2 BPO nerf has been long in the coming, but this patch they get nerfed twice: 50% more materials and 2 to 3 times less units produced for the examples above. And no transparency about all this before the patchnotes. Is this truly what you want?


well it took time but with ccp doing it, they dunno what incremental steps mean and so they took the sledge hammer out when a few more taps with a regular hammer would have done the job. Without going over the f-ing top, congrats on reducing amount of active subscriptions yet again and on making a hash out of the previously working access regulations for assembly lines, and taxation for a assembly line doesnt allow setups were the owner is charged diffrent than the rest. im so happy with having invested into upgrading a station about a year ago.

50% increase in t2 bpo materials=ohh no, you forgot to do the math again and so my monthly demand on the bpo's are actually down by 66% ie moon go is comming down in price from bpo's demand but up because ccp ****** up yet again in forcing more invention into working parts of the market


itshappening.gif
Laughable Xhosa Girl
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#308 - 2014-07-22 19:27:50 UTC
Medalyn Isis wrote:
What happened to Weaslior?


he flew too close to the Posting Sun
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#309 - 2014-07-22 20:02:02 UTC
Laughable Xhosa Girl wrote:
Medalyn Isis wrote:
What happened to Weaslior?


he flew too close to the Posting Sun

got tired of shilling for this crap update?
completely understandable.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Neil Peert
Doomheim
#310 - 2014-07-22 20:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Neil Peert
Kukihara Akachi wrote:
I don't care about over-researched BPOs, that's not relevant. What are relevant are two things:

1) All your previously perfect capital BPO:s are no longer perfect.

A Moros BPO used to perfect when it's ME6. Now all previously perfect capital BPO:s are no longer perfect (ME9). So every single capital BPO owner who had a perfect print were screwed by CCP Greyscale or whoever he was, and the "no functional loss" (or whatever) is a lie.

2) The very poorly planned change made it sure that it REALLY makes a difference that the cap prints are no longer perfect. With the Moros blueprint, for instance, you get the following part savings per ME level:

0->1 = components saved: 0
1->2 = components saved: 0
2->3 = components saved: 0
3->4 = components saved: 6 (65 million saved)
4->5 = components saved: 2 (17 million saved)
5->6 = components saved: 2 (22 million saved)
6->7 = components saved: 3 (34.4 million saved)
7->8 = components saved: 3 (30.1 million saved)
8->9 = components saved: 0
9->10 = components saved: 6 (64.2 million saved)

Look how CCP said something like "fixed number of researchable levels with identical bonuses but increasing research time". Now look at the Moros levels. Now look back at what CCP said. Doesn't look like that was delivered.

CCP also said they're making industry more intuitive and transparent. Look at the Moros levels. Does it look more intuitive? No, I don't think so either. Does it look more transparent? No, because it requires you to get back to a capital print calculator before you can figure out what happens.

So, CCP 1) took your previously perfect capital prints and nerfed them to worse prints, and 2) made sure that those worse prints are a WHOLE LOT WORSE than a perfect one. That's pretty disappointing to be honest.

Heck, actually I don't even know if what I wrote is correct anymore, because I don't bother to log on anymore.


we have more update to come, not too sure what is coming, nerf train is on its way,

where did i put that Patsy Cline fall to pieces, disk
hope to find it by the next update,
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#311 - 2014-07-22 20:29:22 UTC
Metal scraps suffer heavily from refine loss and have not had trit rebalanced to maintain their compression.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
Laura Belle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#312 - 2014-07-22 21:30:32 UTC
there are not enough bad words in my mough to describe the damage you have done
im not gonna continue manufacturing or inveting till u fix it.
the best bpcs in the game now (proccess decryptor+1 time bonus) cost now like -4ME bpcs from the old system.

so stop all those beautiful words and if u think that the market gotta go up by 30% so peaople pay for more plex, go ahead and say it.
else, stop damaging the game i once loved
ergherhdfgh
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#313 - 2014-07-22 22:09:31 UTC
So you guys messed with the inventory UI a few years back and it is still messed up and buggy and does not work. The old inventory system worked way better but just didn't look as pretty. Now you have completely fuxored the industry UI and the BP info tab. It's really really terribad. Once again we have a whole bunch of pretty **** that is nearly useless to replace a UI that was not pretty but had all the info that you needed in an easy to access manner. I wish you guys would quit "fixing" **** because you just break crap and then leave it that way and never go back and fix it and move on to the next thing that's not broke.

Want to talk? Join Cara's channel in game: House Forelli
Scarlet Bear
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2014-07-22 22:44:33 UTC
Neil Peert wrote:
Kukihara Akachi wrote:
I don't care about over-researched BPOs, that's not relevant. What are relevant are two things:

1) All your previously perfect capital BPO:s are no longer perfect.

A Moros BPO used to perfect when it's ME6. Now all previously perfect capital BPO:s are no longer perfect (ME9). So every single capital BPO owner who had a perfect print were screwed by CCP Greyscale or whoever he was, and the "no functional loss" (or whatever) is a lie.

2) The very poorly planned change made it sure that it REALLY makes a difference that the cap prints are no longer perfect. With the Moros blueprint, for instance, you get the following part savings per ME level:

0->1 = components saved: 0
1->2 = components saved: 0
2->3 = components saved: 0
3->4 = components saved: 6 (65 million saved)
4->5 = components saved: 2 (17 million saved)
5->6 = components saved: 2 (22 million saved)
6->7 = components saved: 3 (34.4 million saved)
7->8 = components saved: 3 (30.1 million saved)
8->9 = components saved: 0
9->10 = components saved: 6 (64.2 million saved)

Look how CCP said something like "fixed number of researchable levels with identical bonuses but increasing research time". Now look at the Moros levels. Now look back at what CCP said. Doesn't look like that was delivered.

CCP also said they're making industry more intuitive and transparent. Look at the Moros levels. Does it look more intuitive? No, I don't think so either. Does it look more transparent? No, because it requires you to get back to a capital print calculator before you can figure out what happens.

So, CCP 1) took your previously perfect capital prints and nerfed them to worse prints, and 2) made sure that those worse prints are a WHOLE LOT WORSE than a perfect one. That's pretty disappointing to be honest.

Heck, actually I don't even know if what I wrote is correct anymore, because I don't bother to log on anymore.


we have more update to come, not too sure what is coming, nerf train is on its way,

where did i put that Patsy Cline fall to pieces, disk
hope to find it by the next update,



true more to come, hope the next updates are better,

that song by Patsy Cline Fall to pieces is very good, hope you find it,
DeODokktor
Dark Templars
The Fonz Presidium
#315 - 2014-07-23 01:13:55 UTC
Barton Breau wrote:
Kukihara Akachi wrote:

2) The very poorly planned change made it sure that it REALLY makes a difference that the cap prints are no longer perfect. With the Moros blueprint, for instance, you get the following part savings per ME level:

0->1 = components saved: 0
1->2 = components saved: 0
2->3 = components saved: 0
3->4 = components saved: 6 (65 million saved)
4->5 = components saved: 2 (17 million saved)
5->6 = components saved: 2 (22 million saved)
6->7 = components saved: 3 (34.4 million saved)
7->8 = components saved: 3 (30.1 million saved)
8->9 = components saved: 0
9->10 = components saved: 6 (64.2 million saved)


Capital components are rather large, arent you just beaten by rounding?
Have you tried 100 moroses? (the bonus is now per batch, not job)



I am not sure you should be using the forums.
Go on test server and get us a quote for 100 Moros's being built in one batch and i'll withdraw the implication that I think your a idiot.

To "Barton"..
They could combat this by applying the same type of system they did to "RAM/R.Db"...
Instead of needing say 40 comps, require 4000, It might not go back to the old levels, but you would see better linear progression from each level.
FireLiar
Nothing.
#316 - 2014-07-23 02:43:02 UTC
ergherhdfgh wrote:
So you guys messed with the inventory UI a few years back and it is still messed up and buggy and does not work. The old inventory system worked way better but just didn't look as pretty. Now you have completely fuxored the industry UI and the BP info tab. It's really really terribad. Once again we have a whole bunch of pretty **** that is nearly useless to replace a UI that was not pretty but had all the info that you needed in an easy to access manner. I wish you guys would quit "fixing" **** because you just break crap and then leave it that way and never go back and fix it and move on to the next thing that's not broke.


couldn't of said it better if i had tried Bear
Arist en Daire
EDENCOM Section 7
EDENCOM DEFENSIVE INITIATIVE
#317 - 2014-07-23 03:07:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Arist en Daire
Ok - so this was "supposed to fix" -- let me see, take two BPCs, identically researched. Start one job yesterday (the evening before the Crius update) and go to start same job today (after Crius update). Pre-Crius update takes 3 1/2 days to build - Post-Crius takes 9 1/2 days to build. And this is an improvement how????

In this particular case - I was working with a BPC for Plutonium Charge L. The BPC in both cases was for 1500 runs. I had obtained multiple copies - and been running them in batches as I am able due to having far more copies than slots that I can run (ME and TE are both maxed for my industry alt). So it was a good comparison - apples to apples - NOT apples to oranges.

Pre-Crius it took 4 minutes (with no modifiers for skill) for a single run - now, for no explicable reason it takes 15 minutes.
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
#318 - 2014-07-23 06:10:53 UTC
I think the question that is becoming more loud with every passing hour is who exactly dreamed up this overhaul?
tigra morar
Teutates Industries
#319 - 2014-07-23 06:18:39 UTC
ok so i have a request didnt know where to post it so im doing it here expand the reprossesing hold for are towers it holds only 200 ice i sat there for like 15 min doing up my ice today it was a lite day only 2,000 dreading the heavy days when my guys are hard at work !
Jonathan Yatolila
BKRFLD
#320 - 2014-07-23 06:59:31 UTC
and don't even talk about ore reprocessing. I went from 100% refine to 67%. This is really FUBAR!!!!! Someone in CCP really needs to fix - or better yet - undo this garbage.

Oh well, at least I used to focus on active Trade - and that is what i will be going back to -- but just watch CCP screw that up too.