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Has suicide ganking become a problem? Empty freighters being ganked.

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Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#721 - 2014-06-21 16:27:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Sibyyl wrote:
Gankers already dock up for Faction Police, so it stands to reason they would dock up with just players as well.


Think about what you just said.

You just said that facpo serves no purpose aside from being a mechanic you have to jump through hoops to get around so that you can play the game.

It doesn't matter if you won't see every single neg ten hanging out in highsec. It matters if it allows the ones who want to, to do it without jumping through hoops involving cloaked Orcas and twenty bookmarks in every system you want to operate in.

"Jumping through hoops" has been a sufficient enough mechanic to present penalties for players who are not planners and schemers. Tanking your freighter, or cloaky alts, or webbing alts is "jumping through hoops" too (takes research and a lot of patience and multitaking), and many people don't do it.

The point of FacPo is to reward the player who plans ahead and maps out her deadspaces and gate warp-ins. Making a good set of bookmarks can be major boring stuff, and it takes some amount of time to have a great set to work with even in a single system. A lot of people don't care to do it.

I like having more flexibility because I planned things better. This is what EVE is all about.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#722 - 2014-06-21 16:30:20 UTC
What reward?

Killing the same exact guy as the ganker who never undocks except to insta warp and then head to the target?

There is no reward except to chestbeat about how hard you think you are for avoiding facpo.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#723 - 2014-06-21 16:31:14 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Whats with all of this auto-yellow at -10?

At -10 you are an outlaw and can be shot at already.

I think it's paraphrased badly, but the discussion is around: can someone argue that players themselves can serve as FacPo, and would that increase the interaction between players.

Players can shoot -5 and below, but FacPo have more "flexibility" since they can shoot "less negative" sec status'd folks in some systems.

If we eliminate FacPo, would players get FacPo rights or keep their existing rights?

My point is, eliminating FacPo and having players keep existing rights makes it too easy. Eliminating FacPo and giving players the exact same shooting rights as FacPo makes it too hard.

Edit: added a verb


Give players the option to take over the job of the facpo and they will. CCP would like for players to be the ones scanning for contraband which this would allow. There are lots of people who enjoy playing the cops so yes, this would provide a good deal of content for a good number of people.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#724 - 2014-06-21 16:38:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Because other players aren't 100% present, all day everyday like NPCs are. That means that undocking *might* be worth it, as opposed to definitely not worth it.

That possibility alone opens up far more potential player interaction than currently exists.

[edit: Hell, it might turn bounty hunting into an actual thing.

This is a fair point, and I agree with you. But sometimes I look at the docked up vs. undocked ratios in null and I get a feeling that human opponents really scare the hell out of some players..

The ability for players to enforce criminality would attract more players than it has now to the white knighting side of things, I agree.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
I dream of a game with no NPCs at all that has the same diverse amount of texture as EvE, so that yes, its possible to Trade and Mine and Manufacture and not PvP, but also do everything else too. Pirates are part of the Trading/Fighting Space RPG trope, but so are non violent industrialists. THis is why finding the middle ground of the seesaw is hard.

But I so dislike NPCs functioning in such as way as they actively (passively?) block the creation of such organisations.

I, too, dream of such a game.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#725 - 2014-06-21 16:42:36 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
What reward?

Killing the same exact guy as the ganker who never undocks except to insta warp and then head to the target?

There is no reward except to chestbeat about how hard you think you are for avoiding facpo.

I'm not saying it's hard. Hurdles aren't hard for those who can jump them. Hurdles do catch people, though. I'd rather have a track with hurdles than one without. I think we're just discussing about what those hurdles need to be.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#726 - 2014-06-21 17:10:34 UTC
People are getting so hung up on the effect of facepo on gankers.
It's really quite minor, except for losing the odd catalyst due to a lag spike or a socket disconnect.
Slight convenience of being able to sit in a ship in space, but can be attacked there - and loitering in a populated area is just not an option, gank ships can be killed by almost anything. Right now the white knights complain that gankers are always docked....well give them a reason to undock.

The real benefit is for pirates who might want to chance a sortie into highsec, looking for someone to shoot at them. Often they'll get a fight, often more than they bargained for. Either way initiative is all with the high sec player. Who benefit from groups, as LE prevents pirates from assisting each other. Win win for bored pirates and wannabe vigilantes who are too scared to go to lowsec and get crushed, without the highsec 'homefield' advantage.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#727 - 2014-06-21 17:12:32 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
What reward?

Killing the same exact guy as the ganker who never undocks except to insta warp and then head to the target?

There is no reward except to chestbeat about how hard you think you are for avoiding facpo.

I'm not saying it's hard. Hurdles aren't hard for those who can jump them. Hurdles do catch people, though. I'd rather have a track with hurdles than one without. I think we're just discussing about what those hurdles need to be.


Considering that, as I mentioned before, there is no reward for them, I think they ought to be removed.

Someone (possibly you, idk, looking at this on my sucky phone) mentioned freighters earlier. Freighters are a GOOD example of how taking extra effort pays off.

A freighter who fits a tank, doesn't over haul, and who flies with an escort or a scout is someone who doesn't eat a 1.4 billion isk loss. A suicide ganker who bookmarks half the system and uses a cloaked Orca in a safe spot gains... nothing. He gets the same kill that a ganker who doesn't do that gets (because ganking is all about picking targets, not about ****ing around in space), and his ship still dies to the binary, immersion breaking magic space police.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#728 - 2014-06-21 17:38:49 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
People are getting so hung up on the effect of facepo on gankers.
It's really quite minor, except for losing the odd catalyst due to a lag spike or a socket disconnect.
Slight convenience of being able to sit in a ship in space, but can be attacked there - and loitering in a populated area is just not an option, gank ships can be killed by almost anything. Right now the white knights complain that gankers are always docked....well give them a reason to undock.

The real benefit is for pirates who might want to chance a sortie into highsec, looking for someone to shoot at them. Often they'll get a fight, often more than they bargained for. Either way initiative is all with the high sec player. Who benefit from groups, as LE prevents pirates from assisting each other. Win win for bored pirates and wannabe vigilantes who are too scared to go to lowsec and get crushed, without the highsec 'homefield' advantage.
▲▲ this is the potential of removing facpo. The impact on suicide ganking is less important.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#729 - 2014-06-21 17:58:21 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Herr Wilkus wrote:
People are getting so hung up on the effect of facepo on gankers.
It's really quite minor, except for losing the odd catalyst due to a lag spike or a socket disconnect.
Slight convenience of being able to sit in a ship in space, but can be attacked there - and loitering in a populated area is just not an option, gank ships can be killed by almost anything. Right now the white knights complain that gankers are always docked....well give them a reason to undock.

The real benefit is for pirates who might want to chance a sortie into highsec, looking for someone to shoot at them. Often they'll get a fight, often more than they bargained for. Either way initiative is all with the high sec player. Who benefit from groups, as LE prevents pirates from assisting each other. Win win for bored pirates and wannabe vigilantes who are too scared to go to lowsec and get crushed, without the highsec 'homefield' advantage.
▲▲ this is the potential of removing facpo. The impact on suicide ganking is less important.


Agreed.

Remove FacPo, give the players the resonsibility they demand

You never know, I might trade in a bloody machete for red and blue flashers

Careful of those stairs now, Mr Suspect

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#730 - 2014-06-21 18:04:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Considering that, as I mentioned before, there is no reward for them, I think they ought to be removed.

Someone (possibly you, idk, looking at this on my sucky phone) mentioned freighters earlier. Freighters are a GOOD example of how taking extra effort pays off.

A freighter who fits a tank, doesn't over haul, and who flies with an escort or a scout is someone who doesn't eat a 1.4 billion isk loss. A suicide ganker who bookmarks half the system and uses a cloaked Orca in a safe spot gains... nothing. He gets the same kill that a ganker who doesn't do that gets (because ganking is all about picking targets, not about ****ing around in space), and his ship still dies to the binary, immersion breaking magic space police.

Point conceded. I agree with your assessment.

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#731 - 2014-06-21 18:04:23 UTC
The trouble with removing FacPo is no one gives a shizzle about him next door. I would hazard a guess that a fleet of 20 or so Anti-gankers, following the gankers would eradicate them. Even CODE would soon disappear, as it would soon become boring for the bandwagonners, without the kills Try getting those 20 or so players, PVE'ers just don't care, until their ship blows up. Then the either rage quit, or just buy a new ship.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#732 - 2014-06-21 18:07:53 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
The trouble with removing FacPo is no one gives a shizzle about him next door. I would hazard a guess that a fleet of 20 or so Anti-gankers, following the gankers would eradicate them. Even CODE would soon disappear, as it would soon become boring for the bandwagonners, without the kills Try getting those 20 or so players, PVE'ers just don't care, until their ship blows up. Then the either rage quit, or just buy a new ship.


Who siad the PvErs would be running the cops, or the Health and Safety Executive, or the law courts?

Who says NEW ORDER OF HIGH SEC wouldnt decide they wanted the badge?

I know a lot of folk who wouldnt mind wearing a nice yellow star

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#733 - 2014-06-21 18:08:47 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Considering that, as I mentioned before, there is no reward for them, I think they ought to be removed.

Someone (possibly you, idk, looking at this on my sucky phone) mentioned freighters earlier. Freighters are a GOOD example of how taking extra effort pays off.

A freighter who fits a tank, doesn't over haul, and who flies with an escort or a scout is someone who doesn't eat a 1.4 billion isk loss. A suicide ganker who bookmarks half the system and uses a cloaked Orca in a safe spot gains... nothing. He gets the same kill that a ganker who doesn't do that gets (because ganking is all about picking targets, not about ****ing around in space), and his ship still dies to the binary, immersion breaking magic space police.

Point conceded. I agree with your assessment.


*sniff* I love you guys too BIG HUGS EVERYONE SmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Paranoid Loyd
#734 - 2014-06-21 18:08:49 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:
The trouble with removing FacPo is no one gives a shizzle about him next door. I would hazard a guess that a fleet of 20 or so Anti-gankers, following the gankers would eradicate them. Even CODE would soon disappear, as it would soon become boring for the bandwagonners, without the kills Try getting those 20 or so players, PVE'ers just don't care, until their ship blows up. Then the either rage quit, or just buy a new ship.


There are easily 20 white knights in Aufay, they are not doing a damn thing.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#735 - 2014-06-21 18:31:25 UTC
-10 pilots don't let themselves get into fights because they arent morons. Facepo makes a prolonged fight with a highsec player suicide. Gankers likewise do not put themselves in a position to fight (outside the gank) for the same reason, in addition to the obvious reality that gankboats tend to be squishy in the extreme because nobody can tank CONCORD.
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#736 - 2014-06-21 18:43:55 UTC
Herr Wilkus wrote:
-10 pilots don't let themselves get into fights because they arent morons. Facepo makes a prolonged fight with a highsec player suicide. Gankers likewise do not put themselves in a position to fight (outside the gank) for the same reason, in addition to the obvious reality that gankboats tend to be squishy in the extreme because nobody can tank CONCORD.




^^ from the man who made them change the rules. Smart people would pay for his advice (if they were smart). Cool

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#737 - 2014-06-21 19:21:09 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Considering that, as I mentioned before, there is no reward for them, I think they ought to be removed.

Someone (possibly you, idk, looking at this on my sucky phone) mentioned freighters earlier. Freighters are a GOOD example of how taking extra effort pays off.

A freighter who fits a tank, doesn't over haul, and who flies with an escort or a scout is someone who doesn't eat a 1.4 billion isk loss. A suicide ganker who bookmarks half the system and uses a cloaked Orca in a safe spot gains... nothing. He gets the same kill that a ganker who doesn't do that gets (because ganking is all about picking targets, not about ****ing around in space), and his ship still dies to the binary, immersion breaking magic space police.

Point conceded. I agree with your assessment.
Btw, great job on that portrait, Sibyyl. No reason NPCs should mess with you.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#738 - 2014-06-21 19:32:09 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Btw, great job on that portrait, Sibyyl. No reason NPCs should mess with you.


Agreed, meant to say so myself, looking awesome

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#739 - 2014-06-21 19:37:50 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Btw, great job on that portrait, Sibyyl. No reason NPCs should mess with you.

+1. I vote for this feature. Image recognition in NPC AI that would analyze an avatar for "scariness" prior to attacking. The CCP <-> Oculus Rift <-> Facebook link could work wonders here. This could also open new ground for ultra-kooky avatars that would be required to overstep the CONCORD fear threshold.

Ramona McCandless wrote:
*sniff* I love you guys too BIG HUGS EVERYONE SmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

I'll shiv you in your sleep. <3

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.
Ramona McCandless
Silent Vale
LinkNet
#740 - 2014-06-21 19:44:31 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:


Ramona McCandless wrote:
*sniff* I love you guys too BIG HUGS EVERYONE SmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmileSmile

I'll shiv you in your sleep. <3


I bet you say that to all the girls

"Yea, some dude came in and was normal for first couple months, so I gave him director." - Sean Dunaway

"A singular character could be hired to penetrate another corps space... using gorilla like tactics..." - Chane Morgann