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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

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Author
Lone Gunman
Forhotea Corporation
#401 - 2014-06-02 19:09:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Lone Gunman
With the latest Kronos SiSi build, Fleet hanger is 60K m3. Let's hope that hold for release.
Ang Min
CPD Adventures Pte. Ltd.
#402 - 2014-06-02 19:41:48 UTC
Sael Va'Tauri wrote:
For the fleet hanger allowing battleships into worm holes, why not just change the DST fleet hanger to 37,500 m3 base, and increase the cargo holds to ~6,000 base? The fleet hanger then tops out at almost 50,000 (46,875m3) at level 5 when actively equipped (not enough for the packaged BS), but when not active and stored in a carrier it doesn't store as much either. Additionally, it can be fit to haul similar or a little more than the current proposed changes if you ignore any tank.


+1. This seems like the best solution, and I don't understand why CCP didn't implement it. I don't think they (nor the CSM) have fully thought through all the ramifications of allowing battleships to be so easily brought into C1 w-space. Granted, you could always build them inside, but at least that took substantial time, effort and resources (hauling in or mining the minerals, etc.). With this change, I can haul 20 or so battleships into the C1 system in a little over an hour, before the wormhole collapses.

When wormholes were introduced in Apocryphya, there was a lot of thought put into balancing the six different WH classes, including what ships could be brought in, corresponding difficulty of the Sleeper sites, rewards vs. risk, etc. And developers put in a lot of effort to get all the wormhole mass limits and ship masses set up properly. This balance has worked well for over 5 years (one of the few things in Eve that was done right from the start and hasn't needed tweeking/fixing). Why break that now, when you could have easily achieved the DST cargo boost through other solutions?

Cry
Euripedies
Hot Droppin Cherry Poppers
#403 - 2014-06-02 20:27:25 UTC
A long time ago, in a system far far away, from my current system, I owned a Mastodon.
This Mastodon plodded from system to system, ferrying cargo from one system to another in High Sec. Mind numbing as you can imagine. The Mastodon never went into Low Sec. Cause in low sec, it would no doubt immediately explode, of that I was certain. My Blockade Runner, my Prowler has never exploded in Low Sec, or Null Sec for that matter. Never. As for the Mastodon, I wasn't impressed with its cargo handling features, and adding in the lack of survivability, it was easy to sell when I headed to Null Sec the first time.
Ive always wanted the Mastodon to amount to something, perhaps this time is it. I didn't realize though, I was going to have to set my ship on fire to make it go faster or tank better. Overheating is wonderful and all, but even at level V thermodynamics it still only gives you about ten cycles of whatever you are overheating before burnout. Leaving you with a non-working module, while still webbed and scrammed by multiple points.
And the fleet hanger, while that is a good idea, and I can think of some good things to do with it, cant we please open it in space? Its almost like an orca, but no command bonus, which is cool , its a deep space transport.
and can we have some drone bay action while Im here asking Big smile
Emphias Ramillion
The Order Of Asgard
Lord of Worlds Alliance
#404 - 2014-06-03 11:56:53 UTC
hehehehehe......cool thing i jus bought my mastodon yesterday :P
Jill Antaris
Jill's Open Incursion Corp
#405 - 2014-06-03 12:43:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Jill Antaris
Would it be possible to increase the warp speed of the transport ships to 4.5 or even 5 AU/s and add a bit more agility and speed then a BS?

I like the change with the extra hangar, however for moving something of value quick that is to big for the blockade runners the tier 1 Industrials are currently a lot better than transport ships simply because they can warp quick, align quick, can field sufficient buffer to withstand 1-2 destroyers or a single tornado volley and are even very good at low sec hauling, relaying on mwd/cloak at gates with enough mobility to get back to the gate if you spawn very close to another ship without the cloak option.

The active tank thing is a nice gimmick but rarely useful in empire(alpha) or low sec(because ships can hold and bump you very easy and after 60s your tank will break down by nos/neuts or to much damage on the mods). What would be more important is mobility(speed/agility to get back to the gate quick), fast warp speed(like 4.5-5 AU what would be very interesting for the given capacity) and a bit more HP in the standard tanking layer(what means shield on every single one of them), even the overheating bonus makes a lot more sense with Invus compared to EANMs.

The Impel needs a more balanced slot layout like 4 meds and 5 lows, because armor tanking Transports hinders agility and speed(what are the main things you want on a Indu that carriers stuff of value), it got the most holes in the T2 resists with a shield tank and the limited power gird prevents reasonable mwd + plate fittings anyway. While it could possible archive the highest EHP with a 1600mm plate, slaves(and you want warp speed imps for serious hauling anyway) and a full tank layout, it cripples the mobility what is a big no no for people that use them in low sec or haul a very huge amount of stuff every day(like people that consider haulers as her work horses that need to be fast, save and reliable in any kind of situation).

Same goes for the Occator, 4 med slots please.

Being a lot less dependent on stacking cargo extenders even further reduces the value of 6 or 7 low slots, so can we please have a more balanced slot layout on the gallente and amarr Transport ships? The higher agility, T2 resist profile and slot layout already makes the Caladari and Minmatar option preferable over the Gallente and Amarr options for practical use and this should be taken into consideration when redesigning the hulls.

If you stand in front of a 5 man gate camp in low sec, mobility/agility is more important because it gives you the chance to get back to the gate, if you move stuff in empire a lot(like the people that skill for the hulls) you will always do a compromise between speed, tank and agility because you will have more dedicated hulls for high value stuff(that can be tanked a lot better than a Transport ship or use a cov ops cloak) and the advantage having a super high EHP armor hauler that takes another 5-6s at every gate is rather limited if you have to do 400-500 jumps a day.
Saint Germain
Sekundu
#406 - 2014-06-04 10:42:29 UTC
Still can't mine in a Bustard or Impel, please give these ships at least one turret hardpoint.
Otherwise I'm delighted with this update!
HiddenPorpoise
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#407 - 2014-06-04 11:01:31 UTC
Now some DST can hit over 100% resists in overheat; can someone go on the test server and see what happens?
Gosti Kahanid
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#408 - 2014-06-04 11:17:49 UTC
To get over 100% is impossible, but the Fitting-Window will show 100% when you have your resi at 99,1 or higher because it is rounded up (as you can see in the Screenshot)
http://puu.sh/8U5HA.jpg
In this case I had explo-resi at 99,37 (acording to EFT)
Debora Tsung
Perkone
Caldari State
#409 - 2014-06-04 12:21:23 UTC
Read the changes about that just now... Shocked

Stupidity should be a bannable offense.

Fighting back is more fun than not.

Sticky: AFK Cloaking Thread It's not pretty, but it's there.

novasigma Okaski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#410 - 2014-06-05 01:18:57 UTC
Retar Aveymone wrote:
well that's sure a thing, i have absolutely no idea what role that thing will play

will be interesting to see how it shakes out



this is going to give this ship one hell of a role \0/ not only for moving things but let me put it to you this way dedicated orca hauller any one
Xavier Vora
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#411 - 2014-06-05 11:09:35 UTC
The upgrades are nice but after the patch i went from being able ti run 33km3 to less than 15k m3 if the patch was supposed to improve the ship so more people would use it then i think you have got this "improvement" very wrong. So you give more medium slots but remove 2 low slots. This ship is supposed to be a hauler i think you have gotten a bit lost on this one, i for one will not be using it anymore.

who do i need to speak to about getting the time i spent in SP for the t2 haulers back so i can put them to some good use, the time spent getting these has been a total waste of time which means a total waste of subscription.

you ****** this up.
Lyyraia
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#412 - 2014-06-05 11:11:49 UTC
Xavier Vora wrote:
The upgrades are nice but after the patch i went from being able ti run 33km3 to less than 15k m3 if the patch was supposed to improve the ship so more people would use it then i think you have got this "improvement" very wrong. So you give more medium slots but remove 2 low slots. This ship is supposed to be a hauler i think you have gotten a bit lost on this one, i for one will not be using it anymore.

who do i need to speak to about getting the time i spent in SP for the t2 haulers back so i can put them to some good use, the time spent getting these has been a total waste of time which means a total waste of subscription.

you ****** this up.


60k m³ Fleethanger??
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#413 - 2014-06-05 17:22:49 UTC
Lyyraia wrote:
Xavier Vora wrote:
The upgrades are nice but after the patch i went from being able ti run 33km3 to less than 15k m3 if the patch was supposed to improve the ship so more people would use it then i think you have got this "improvement" very wrong. So you give more medium slots but remove 2 low slots. This ship is supposed to be a hauler i think you have gotten a bit lost on this one, i for one will not be using it anymore.

who do i need to speak to about getting the time i spent in SP for the t2 haulers back so i can put them to some good use, the time spent getting these has been a total waste of time which means a total waste of subscription.

you ****** this up.


60k m³ Fleethanger??


Pretty sure it was implemented at 50k but your point still stand, it is in both case a good upgrade.
Yun Kuai
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#414 - 2014-06-05 17:27:21 UTC
I've always been a Gallente fan and had an occator in my hangar usually for keep sakes since the Iteron Mark V was always better at hauling more and was significantly faster. Considering that I live in FW space (i.e. The most dangerous space in game at the moment) I usually just used the Viator and made a few runs to haul in a load of cruisers or modules. Anyways I undocked the Occator with the alt yesterday, flew it over to Jita travel fit and then proceeded to load up 5 cruisers and 10 frigs into the Occator and moved them back to my HQ in lowsec.

Needless to say, these new DST are the perfect mid sized haulers for lowsec now. The specialized T1 ore, ammo, etc holds are nice but the multipurpose DST to haul everything at once is just convenient. The alt is about to finish training Transport ships lvl 4 and will start on lvl 5 right after. +1 for listening to the players and finally giving us a good mid-sized hauler.



Also, for those who are still thinking about the tanking and OH bonuses being pointless. Don't look at it in the situation of if you get caught off a gate because 99% of the time you're dead. Think about it instead about when you undock on a kick out station and need to make it back 1-2km or when there's a tornado or two hoping to just alpha you before you can warp off. That's where the tanking will help. It's nice to have during those random moments.

--------------------------------------------------------::::::::::::--:::-----:::---::::::::::::--------------:::----------:::----:::---:::----------------------:::::::-------:::---:::----::::::-------------------:::-----------:::--:::----:::---------------------::::::::::::----:::::::----:::::::::::::-------

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#415 - 2014-06-05 18:03:37 UTC
Yun Kuai wrote:




Also, for those who are still thinking about the tanking and OH bonuses being pointless. Don't look at it in the situation of if you get caught off a gate because 99% of the time you're dead. Think about it instead about when you undock on a kick out station and need to make it back 1-2km or when there's a tornado or two hoping to just alpha you before you can warp off. That's where the tanking will help. It's nice to have during those random moments.


This is an extremely good point to make. Gate camp will usually hold you too hard to warp away anyway and 12k is a long ass way to run back to gate.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#416 - 2014-06-05 18:17:24 UTC
Xavier Vora wrote:
The upgrades are nice but after the patch i went from being able ti run 33km3 to less than 15k m3 if the patch was supposed to improve the ship so more people would use it then i think you have got this "improvement" very wrong. So you give more medium slots but remove 2 low slots. This ship is supposed to be a hauler i think you have gotten a bit lost on this one, i for one will not be using it anymore.

who do i need to speak to about getting the time i spent in SP for the t2 haulers back so i can put them to some good use, the time spent getting these has been a total waste of time which means a total waste of subscription.

you ****** this up.

"I didn't bother to read OP"
Firelyz
Papeete Retirement Club
#417 - 2014-06-08 07:16:35 UTC
Armor transport are unbalanced ,
with Bustard i cannot fit 10 mn mwd + medium micro jump drive since the grid is very low,
but the gallente and amarr version can do it with no problem ( triple propulsion with occator lol ) ,
also if you want to use that as a pure transport amarr and gallente can easly achive 24k base cargo + 66k fleet hangar , shield transport can go max 14k cargo +66k .
Base speed are greater on amarr and gallente than caldari and minmatar thats a bit lol
Stuhami
Interstellar eXodus
Against ALL Authorities.
#418 - 2014-06-08 08:21:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Stuhami
Hello,

This is my Post patch feedback on the Kronos changes for the Deep Space transports based on my experience with it.

DST TANKING BONUS


Before the release of Kronos I tested the DST tank in singularity. I instantly noticed that the tank would not be viable as active tank. Yes, even with the bonus an active tank is frail at best and passive tanks can be broken. Even with the 100% to the overheat bonus, the tank is not viable, passive or active, against a serious opponents of which there are many in low and null-sec which is where the Deep space transport is supposed to live. Even with a 70k EHP passive tank it only serves to delay the inevitable which is the destruction of the ship. You can be bumped returning to the gate which happens all the time and is the MO of any seasoned pirate so returning to gate is mostly out of the question considering you speed and agility; 1 bump is allthat is needed for them to have enough time to kill you.

Quote:
Instead of having a 100% to overheat bonus which will only be used when you are already completely flunked, remove it and for every level in transport ships give it a 15% bonus reduction to spool up time to the microjump drive or a 75% reduction to spool up time of the micro jump drive...

...With this proposed change the spool up time of the medium micro jump drive could be as low as 2.25 seconds. Fast enough to put some room in between you and your attackers but not fast enough to be uncatchable by dedicated long points or camps ready to catch the ship.


MEDIUM MICRO JUMP DRIVE


IN NULL SEC
After also testing it in singularity I immediately noticed that the medium micro jump drive is also useless in a ship made for the passing of stargates in low/null sec space. The activation time is simply to long for it not to be completely nullified by one single warp scrambler and even though you retain your ability to warp the whole idea of a micro jump drive is so you can pass bubbles which you can't if your scrammed. This makes it so if there is a bubbled gate, there is not chance of making it out if your scrammed.

Quote:
You can be bumped returning to the gate which happens all the time and is the MO of any seasoned pirate.


IN LOW SEC
In low sec the need for the microjump module is less because of the inability to use bubbles. But we also run into the same problem, a single scram can get you flunked. So let say that by an off chance that scram is a Heavy interdicter with a scrip on it and you are perma-flunked and unable to microjump either; A two for one no one wants. Now include the fact that DST are slow for starters and that the MJD takes a spool up time of 12 seconds, that gives a heavy interdicter more than enough time to put that infinite point on you right from the jump in, since the heavy interdicter at level 4 has a range of at least 28 meters with the scrip going; giving a Deep transport ship not time to do anything at all be it warp or micro jump and try to warp after. The returning to the gate and being bumped is probably more prevalent in low sec since returning to the gate at this stage would be the only possible solution.

ADVISORY
For all those troll prone posters who would like to start saying "Ohh that's what scouts are for" so you don't get caught in a camp, It's important to remember that making this type of ship, and by that I mean non capital, balanced on the use of more than one account, be it by the transport ship user or a friend, is not balance at all. All ships are viable solo at their job unless their job is to support a fleet. This would make it unprofitable to even use deep space transport ships in the first place. And it's this same attribute by which people prefer using blockade runners than DST because of their ability to go through blockades with such a good survival/death ratio without the absolute need of a scout. Please read "absolute" as it's good if you have it but your not completely flunked if you don't.

THE SOLUTION


Well then you might ask yourself how we make this ship viable for the use as a deep space transport without making it completely uncatchable/overpowered. The answer could be a simple one. Instead of having a 100% to overheat bonus which will only be used when you are already completely flunked, remove it and for every level in transport ships give it a 15% bonus reduction to spool up time to the micro jump drive or a 75% reduction to spool up time of the micro jump drive.

REASONING

Tanking has never been the strongpoint of a transport ship and even if tanking abilities were made 100 times better the idea of the ship is to get the good to their respective place safely and not brawling it out. By giving DST ships a bonus to spool up time of microjump drive you do 2 things. The first of these is that it makes so that a level 5 transport ship pilot dedicated to transport ships can put some distance from his attackers and him in a considerably short amount of time and second by reducing the spool up time but not eliminating it you create a window for the pilot being caught.

With this proposed change the spool up time of the medium micro jump drive could be as low as 2.25 seconds. Fast enough to put some room in between you and your attackers but not fast enough to be uncatchable by dedicated long points or camps ready to catch a ship.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#419 - 2014-06-08 12:04:41 UTC
If you want to break through gate camps, or "run blockades", there's a set of ships designed for just that purpose.

You've just got stuck on the name "deep space transport". A better name would be "highsec transport".
Stuhami
Interstellar eXodus
Against ALL Authorities.
#420 - 2014-06-09 04:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Stuhami
Gypsio III wrote:
If you want to break through gate camps, or "run blockades", there's a set of ships designed for just that purpose.

You've just got stuck on the name "deep space transport". A better name would be "highsec transport".



Diminishing micro jump time wont get you past gate camps since 2 seconds is more than enough for a frigate or dedicated point to eliminate your ability to use the MJD... As for Hughsec transport part; well if that was the case there wouldnt be a tanking bonus in the first place. Gank is the name of the game in highsec and they will do it no matter what ship you have.

I just feel that there is no reason for a tanking bonus on a ship that can't tank worth a damn and if it needs to tank it's because it will probably die anyway to whatever caught it since there is no way he is getting back to the gate with a AF overheated while being bumbped. He will burn it out and then die.