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[Kronos] Deep Space Transport Rebalance

First post First post
Author
Bren Genzan
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
#361 - 2014-05-21 23:33:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Bren Genzan
Syri Taneka wrote:
Except for the fact an Orca can move ~92k m^3 of cargo with a 200k EHP buffer tank AND also carry 400k m^3 of unpacked ships (of any kind). Sure, a DST can do so faster, but it's a short trip where speed actually winds up trumping that kind of capacity.

I'm arguing that the planned incarnation of the DST is not viable. I know the Orca is an uber hauler. Too bad that's really not what its intended role is.

I just believe that a 150 to 200k tanky T2 hauler would be something that would be easier for low SP players to work their way into, as well as veterans who don't want to have a freighter languishing in high sec unused. As I said in my first post, I have a Bustard, an Orca and a freighter and, in general, if I can't haul it in a T1 hauler, I pay for professionals to move it.
Capqu
Half Empty
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#362 - 2014-05-22 01:39:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Capqu
i don't understand what you're saying about the fleet hangar restrictions

currently there aren't any except for assembled ships, are you saying these can have assembled ships but same rules for sma wrt them?

edit: i understand now, you are talking about the dst's fleet hangar cargo having the same cargo restrictions as it's cargo bay when the DST is placed in a carrier's SMA
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#363 - 2014-05-22 04:38:10 UTC
Syri Taneka wrote:
Except for the fact an Orca can move ~92k m^3 of cargo with a 200k EHP buffer tank AND also carry 400k m^3 of unpacked ships (of any kind). Sure, a DST can do so faster, but it's a short trip where speed actually winds up trumping that kind of capacity.


Can you show me a fit where the Orca has 92k m3 of cargo capacity and 200k EHP at the same time? Am I cheating myself of potential bonuses by fitting sub-optimally?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#364 - 2014-05-22 04:42:00 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Fleet hangars will follow the same rules as normal cargo when you attempt to place a ship inside of a Ship Maintenance Bay. And the numbers in the OP are currently correct.


Thank you CCP Fozzie & those behind the scenes too!

Having a decent capacity hauler to haul around inside the Orca will make mining sessions a little less tedious, especially with the large fleet hangar on the DST meaning the Orca pilot only has to move stuff around once instead of funnelling it all in and out through the Orca's fleet hangar.
Dave Stark
#365 - 2014-05-22 06:56:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dave Stark
Mara Rinn wrote:
Syri Taneka wrote:
Except for the fact an Orca can move ~92k m^3 of cargo with a 200k EHP buffer tank AND also carry 400k m^3 of unpacked ships (of any kind). Sure, a DST can do so faster, but it's a short trip where speed actually winds up trumping that kind of capacity.


Can you show me a fit where the Orca has 92k m3 of cargo capacity and 200k EHP at the same time? Am I cheating myself of potential bonuses by fitting sub-optimally?


cargo rig your orca, then tank it normally.

regular cargo + fleet hangar hit ~100k, and your ehp is still over 200k. armour penalties on the orca's ehp are negligible.

here

also not quite the 100k cargo, but still over 200k ehp and aligns in 10 sec (all hail the 100mn mwd)
Lexmana
#366 - 2014-05-22 06:57:26 UTC
So now that the shoebox is out of the way can we please restore the assembled volume to ~ 300k m3?
Dave Stark
#367 - 2014-05-22 06:58:54 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
So now that the shoebox is out of the way can we please restore the assembled volume to ~ 300k m3?

no, for the same reason that the hoarder is 400k m3.
Lexmana
#368 - 2014-05-22 07:09:19 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
So now that the shoebox is out of the way can we please restore the assembled volume to ~ 300k m3?

no, for the same reason that the hoarder is 400k m3.


Horder always was 400k right? But you used to be able to fit a DST+ cov ops in an Orca. No biggie since BR is the better choice most of the time though and it also allows for a cruiser on top.
Dave Stark
#369 - 2014-05-22 07:22:30 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
So now that the shoebox is out of the way can we please restore the assembled volume to ~ 300k m3?

no, for the same reason that the hoarder is 400k m3.


Horder always was 400k right? But you used to be able to fit a DST+ cov ops in an Orca. No biggie since BR is the better choice most of the time though and it also allows for a cruiser on top.

nope, it was only 400k when it got the specialised ammo hold.
Rena'Thras
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#370 - 2014-05-22 08:20:36 UTC
Reaver Glitterstim wrote:
Fleet hangar isn't the purpose of those ships. It's just a cool ability they have.

They way to bring them on-grid is to disallow off-grid boosts. 95% of what rorquals are used for and 70% of what orcas are used for is boosting. After this change, orcas will go up to 90% boosting, as the DSTs will be replacing them as a hauler for the most part.


Eh, not exactly.

Consider a small mining party, say 5 miners and an Orca. In this party, they get boosts (Orca) + hauling (Orca) + 5 miners.

Now, if you add a DST in for the hauling part of the Orca, you change the group:

Boosts (Orca) + hauling (DST) + 4 miners OR
Hauling (DST) + 5 miners.

So they won't replace Orcas unless you have very large mining fleets in very dangerous space.

Why do I say this? Unless you're in very dangerous space, you'd still use the Orca since 1 less pilot hauling means 1 more pilot mining, which increases mining yield for the fleet. In very dangerous space, you're less concerned about yield and more concerned about the resources and survival of the fleet. In that case, your miners will be in Procurers/Skiffs, your Orca will be in a POS.

And even in such cases, you still might use an Orca or, alternatively, have the miners drop off their own cargo (Procurers have a 1,200 m3 ore bay + 350 cargo bay, after all) since, again, the concern is more about safety and harvesting needed materials rather than volume.

The only time the DSTs will outst the Orcas is in larger fleets.

Suppose you had a fleet of 20-40 miners in medium danger areas. NOW you will want to employ your Orca in the POS for boosts and have about 3-7 DST pilots (depends on size of fleet and how fast those DST holds are filling) with the rest being miners.

That is, situations where you might have more than one Orca CURRENTLY and you're just swapping the EXTRA Orcas for DSTs.

I'm not sure this is actually a problem, per se, as it presents viable choices and options.

.

Though I do agree, the cargo hold should be bumped up to 10k or so. It should, at the least, be able to deploy POS structures.
Shivanthar
#371 - 2014-05-22 08:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Shivanthar
It seems CCP is missing one, very important and obvious point. While you're on DSTs, it would be nice to repeat what you've done to industrials, which are;

- Fixing useless transport ship bonuses by;
1- Integrating speed bonus into hull, replacing it with something more useful.
2- Replacing %7,5 shield boosting bonus to %10 MMJD spool-up time reduction or something more appropriate to fit to transports' new role/capabilities.

I use a mastodon, it is shield tank by nature, so I suggest %7,5 to shield capacity per level or %7,5 to passive shield recharge rate per level.

Even you don't like any suggestions above, it is for sure that current dst bonus is outdated. At least speed one.

Candidates for speed bonus are a lot:
- %N Agility per level for faster aligning
- %N Warp speed per level. Speed --> Warp Speed. It doesn't seem that bad? Eh? Roll
- %N medium projectile turret damage per level Twisted (mastodon fighting for freedom!)
- Fleet hangar capacity per level Roll
- %N Signature radius reduction per level
- %N Deflection of capacitor destabilizer amount per level
- %20 reduction of movement impairing effects per level
- etc..

But, not speed.

_Half _the lies they tell about me **aren't **true.

Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#372 - 2014-05-22 11:00:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
And also:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4625771#post4625771
YES!

ORCA and RORQUAL will need a serious revamp to find their new place in the game though.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

Meandering Milieu
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#373 - 2014-05-22 11:17:57 UTC
Not caught up yet, but here: Mastodon pilot myself. Well prowler really, but will be picking one up after the changes for hauling ore through a few jumps with scout.

Note on the shield tanking bit. It is shield tanked, but gets velocity bonus/is meant to be used with prop mods like an AB/MJD. With a 10mn AB, it moves at a blistering 325m/seconds. With T2 speed rigs, and nothing but overdrive injectors, you manage an absolutely blazing 456m/s. Quafe Zero brings this up to 479m/s. Too bad a single web will make it impossible to really burn out of a bubble. But to fit two prop mods with only 3 slots to shield tank is kind of ridiculous.

Honestly, the ability to fit an oversized AB would be very nice. 100mn AB clocks in at like ~700m/sec. With the overdrive injectors, speed rigs, and quafe you can get it just over 1km/sec. Which would be beautiful for burning out of bubbles/ect.

But yeah basically a single dictor with bubble/scram can pin you down, and being held down by a single ship while you slowboat through 3 bubbles minimum is kind of crazy for a ship that is supposed to be good at getting out of dangerous situations. Burning back to gate can be a joke too depending on the situation.

Suggestions:

1. Take away the speed bonus and give a % reduction on powergrid needs for prop mods, with lvl 4 being enough to fit a 100mn AB on it, so a single web isn't enough to make your life miserable and burning out of bubbles actually becomes possible if scrammed. Or give it a role bonus that makes MWDs immune to scrams, not MJDs though. This would be a nice alternative to bubble nullification, since it would make the tank actually worth while, as you could tank through bubbles and get out if only 1-2 people were holding you down. You'd still die to a dedicated camp.

2. Increase medium slot layout to like 5 slots please.

3. Possibly role bonus that reduces the effect of webs.

4. More highslots and bonus to smartbomb range and damage to clear drones/scram tackle on you.

You want a heavy armored transport than shouldn't be afraid of one or two people in tackle ships on a gate. That is an amazing idea I've always loved. Tank is wonderful, but without the speed to get through it, or a way to get a scram off you, it won't work, because by time you are out of the bubbles help has arrived or the dictor has managed to reload bubbles and you have to start over again.
Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#374 - 2014-05-22 11:43:55 UTC
My Hauling alt can drive an Occator. In case anyone was wondering - lows full of t2 cargo expanders and t2 cargo rigs gives a 24168 cargo hold. Currently training thermodynamics, armor rigging, and jump drive operation to test the rest of it.
Kirluin
#375 - 2014-05-22 12:46:25 UTC
Meandering Milieu wrote:

Suggestions:

1. Take away the speed bonus and give a % reduction on powergrid needs for prop mods, with lvl 4 being enough to fit a 100mn AB on it, so a single web isn't enough to make your life miserable and burning out of bubbles actually becomes possible if scrammed.


web immunity (or % reduction) + ability to fit 100mn ab (with fitting sacrifices) would rock. gets the job done with a totally different gameplay style to BRs.
dexter xio
Dead Game.
#376 - 2014-05-22 14:56:06 UTC
MJD cool-down timer instead of velocity would be neat.

Dead Game.

Zarnak Wulf
Amarrian Vengeance
#377 - 2014-05-23 17:42:58 UTC
Played around again. Overheated 10MN AB gets you to 534m/s. Overheated MWD gets to 1500+km/s. You're not hitting that speed until three cycles go by. If you have to burn back to the gate good luck to you.
Captain Finklestein
Doomheim
#378 - 2014-05-23 19:30:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Finklestein
CCP Fozzie wrote:
CynoNet Two wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Hey everyone.


Can we get some feedback on the bubble immunity thing for DSTs? Obviously it's a dumb idea for Blockade Runners, but replacing the DST warp core stability bonus with bubble immunity makes a lot of sense and isn't anywhere near as strong as it is on Interceptors / T3 cruisers.

Was the idea considered?


The idea was considered and rejected as it would make DSTs too difficult to catch in nullsec and (especially) wormhole space and wouldn't provide much interesting gameplay.

Infinite point HIC.
People can adjust and bring them to fleet camps.

Even with all these changes, the DST will still not be used in low/null/WH. It will become quite useful in HS however.

Needs bubble immunity to be used in non-HS imo. Remember it still aligns like poop, so any HIC on gate will auto-catch it.

It's just more financially viable for me.

HandelsPharmi
Pharmi on CharBazaar
#379 - 2014-05-23 19:34:17 UTC
Is it possible to put the Deep Space Transporter in my Ship Hangar, if there is anything except ammonation in the FLEET hangar?

May I able to expand the cargohold of an Orca by 50k m³ with the fleet hangar or a DST?
Yuri Fedorov
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#380 - 2014-05-23 23:53:04 UTC
To me the DST still seems mostly useless as a low/null hauler. Sure the warp strength and MMJD are nice, but one ship with a web/scram and bump and its still game over. The MMJD fails, MWD is not an option, and so is the AB.