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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

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stoicfaux
#261 - 2014-04-07 23:52:33 UTC
This... is not looking good for the Rattlesnake.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#262 - 2014-04-07 23:55:27 UTC
Ok, seriously, what is with the power grid nerfs? These aren't just here and there either, but 150 or more. I mean, was the Vigilant or the Ashimuu or the Cynabal really so spoiled for grid as all that?

Give the Ashimuu back it's third utility highslot. If you're serious about making it viable for NOS, then don't make me sacrifice a turret to use 3 of them. The ship's dps sucks badly enough as it is.

And unfuck the Cynabal, I guarantee you that it's use will drop off the map with the proposed stats.

Oh, and people? Quit freaking crying about bonused webs. You're worse than carebears, whining for nerfs.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
gawrshmapooo
J33 Monocombine
#263 - 2014-04-07 23:58:32 UTC
Mr. Rise,

Please reconsider the PG decrease on the Vigilant.

Thank you

I sell combat boosters of every strength and type. Message me to get your edge.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#264 - 2014-04-08 00:04:12 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
This... is not looking good for the Rattlesnake.



I'm pretty confident it'll get the bonus to sentries too. The Domi will have the niche of flexibility, with the range and tracking bonuses and the ability to use bonused light drones, while the Rattler will go down the pure DPS route.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#265 - 2014-04-08 00:07:34 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
I kinda praised the thread a little too soon i guess, I hadn't noticed the fairly massive reductions in grid to the serpentis and angel ship.

Lets not be silly nobody was running around screaming about how much grid the vigilant had, it was a ship that was tight to fit for armor or easy to fit for shields, you've effectively just curb stomped its ability to fit its racially native armor tank.

Don't do that.

The Cynabal I'm more indifferent about, I feel its had a relative ease of fitting that few ships ever got, however since a Cynaball fit with a cloak has a higher scan res than a vaga without a cloak I find it odd that you went after its Power Grid.


Actually i disagree completly - complelty ******** dps of Vigilant combined with actually VERY good tank + 2x 90% webs was way over top. Maybe time to make decision - dps or tank ... because this ship had too much going for it. Fitting neutrons 24/7 without losing any utility or tank was rather disgusting on this ship.

If vigilants will end up flying with 1600plate again and 2x 90% webs mwding around ... at least i hope they will do this with electrons.

On the other hand Cynabal actually had only speed/agility and fittings making it so good boat. Now you can forget about silly but funny concept of Arty Cyna.

Edit i just have open eft with fit of "balanced" Vigilant:
few numbers to throw in :
999 dps with void oh - no implants just all V. YES ALMOST 1000 dps - with hammerheads - because why not with 2x 90% webs. With hobs its still 939 dps ... if you fancy to have also flight of hornets 300,
50,626 ehp
1489 cold speed mwd
2x 90% webs
I'm all for fun and unique AND powerful pirate ships. But that one was about to be cut a bit. Glad it happend. For me it did not get enough nerfs.


Yea, how dare it have the hit points of a tank fit gang bonused recon and or beef fit maller while doing damage.


Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
stoicfaux
#266 - 2014-04-08 00:17:37 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
This... is not looking good for the Rattlesnake.



I'm pretty confident it'll get the bonus to sentries too. The Domi will have the niche of flexibility, with the range and tracking bonuses and the ability to use bonused light drones, while the Rattler will go down the pure DPS route.

I disagree about the sentries. Two bonused heavies and the missile velocity bonus swapped to a kin/therm damage means the Rattlesnake is going down the road of "short" range brawler. (Short as in greatly reduced damage projection.)

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.
Naomi Anthar
#267 - 2014-04-08 00:18:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Grath Telkin wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
I kinda praised the thread a little too soon i guess, I hadn't noticed the fairly massive reductions in grid to the serpentis and angel ship.

Lets not be silly nobody was running around screaming about how much grid the vigilant had, it was a ship that was tight to fit for armor or easy to fit for shields, you've effectively just curb stomped its ability to fit its racially native armor tank.

Don't do that.

The Cynabal I'm more indifferent about, I feel its had a relative ease of fitting that few ships ever got, however since a Cynaball fit with a cloak has a higher scan res than a vaga without a cloak I find it odd that you went after its Power Grid.


Actually i disagree completly - complelty ******** dps of Vigilant combined with actually VERY good tank + 2x 90% webs was way over top. Maybe time to make decision - dps or tank ... because this ship had too much going for it. Fitting neutrons 24/7 without losing any utility or tank was rather disgusting on this ship.

If vigilants will end up flying with 1600plate again and 2x 90% webs mwding around ... at least i hope they will do this with electrons.

On the other hand Cynabal actually had only speed/agility and fittings making it so good boat. Now you can forget about silly but funny concept of Arty Cyna.

Edit i just have open eft with fit of "balanced" Vigilant:
few numbers to throw in :
999 dps with void oh - no implants just all V. YES ALMOST 1000 dps - with hammerheads - because why not with 2x 90% webs. With hobs its still 939 dps ... if you fancy to have also flight of hornets 300,
50,626 ehp
1489 cold speed mwd
2x 90% webs
I'm all for fun and unique AND powerful pirate ships. But that one was about to be cut a bit. Glad it happend. For me it did not get enough nerfs.


Yea, how dare it have the hit points of a tank fit gang bonused recon and or beef fit maller while doing damage.




"while doing BATTLESHIP DAMAGE with damage application of frigate" fix it for you. Also it is faster than said maller , does better with cap problems. Also it does recon ship job better than recon ship at short ranges.

Yea, how it dares ...

And on top of that - it is going to be faster now , with more lock range - you just downgrade guns. So you will still do Battleship dps - but a bit less.
Grath Telkin
Amok.
Goonswarm Federation
#268 - 2014-04-08 00:25:21 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:


"while doing BATTLESHIP DAMAGE with damage application of frigate" fix it for you. Also it is faster than said maller , does better with cap problems. Also it does recon ship job better than recon ship at short ranges.

Yea, how it dares ...


Its damage is on par with things like the Thorax (830 DPS) and the Vexor (1k dps), stop being so dramatic

Malcanis - Without drone assign, the slowcat doctrine will wither and die.
Naomi Anthar
#269 - 2014-04-08 00:30:47 UTC
Grath Telkin wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:


"while doing BATTLESHIP DAMAGE with damage application of frigate" fix it for you. Also it is faster than said maller , does better with cap problems. Also it does recon ship job better than recon ship at short ranges.

Yea, how it dares ...


Its damage is on par with things like the Thorax (830 DPS) and the Vexor (1k dps), stop being so dramatic


200 more dps over said thorax ... is still noticeable difference and Vexor dps ... not sure from what hole you got the numbers. But i bet this hole start with "A" letter. Either way those ships will have close to 0 tank while doing this dps, and completly 0 utility ... yeah and not even close to being apply this dps so easily.

I'm not dramatic - you can keep your vigilant if you ask me. But by saying it is so nerfed by the changes is quiet silly.

Just because you will have to fit ions now ? Still its going to be outstanding and well performing ship. Now also with more speed and lockrange for rail retardness.
Keith Planck
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#270 - 2014-04-08 00:40:50 UTC
Change the Cyn to a rapid light reload time bonus ship.

I am seriously going to miss sentries on the gila :<

♞
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#271 - 2014-04-08 00:42:06 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:


"while doing BATTLESHIP DAMAGE with damage application of frigate" fix it for you. Also it is faster than said maller , does better with cap problems. Also it does recon ship job better than recon ship at short ranges.

Yea, how it dares ...


Its damage is on par with things like the Thorax (830 DPS) and the Vexor (1k dps), stop being so dramatic


200 more dps over said thorax ... is still noticeable difference and Vexor dps ... not sure from what hole you got the numbers. But i bet this hole start with "A" letter. Either way those ships will have close to 0 tank while doing this dps, and completly 0 utility ... yeah and not even close to being apply this dps so easily.

I'm not dramatic - you can keep your vigilant if you ask me. But by saying it is so nerfed by the changes is quiet silly.

Just because you will have to fit ions now ? Still its going to be outstanding and well performing ship. Now also with more speed and lockrange for rail retardness.


Notice how both of those ships are T1 cruisers, with negligible cost in comparison to the Vigilant? And yes, the Vexor can output about 1k with heat, full rack of guns, double webs, and (I think) Heavy Drones is where those numbers come from.

The Vigilant damn well better be superior in some ways, otherwise there is literally no reason to fly it compared to the T1 Gallente cruisers.

That whole "niche" thing that Grath was talking about? That means that ships have a reason to exist. What you're talking about, is that apparently the Cynabal should be worse than the Stabber. Because that's what you're asking for, by complaining about the Vigilant in comparison to the T1 Gallente cruisers.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#272 - 2014-04-08 00:42:38 UTC
Harvey James wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Harvey James wrote:
Suitonia wrote:
Hi Rise/Fozzie. I feel like the Cynabal overlaps far too much with the current Vagabond which currently is better in a lot of ways over the Cynabal and is generally superior. The Cynabal only offers better agility and a slightly better drone bay for all-around poorer performance. The extra mid does add some options but the vagabonds T2 resistances give a better performance than a 3rd tank items does from the Cynabal and the vagabonds shield boost bonus makes it the superior brawler. The vagabond has far better cap stability, t2 resists which help a lot for local/remote reps, better targeting stats and a powerful local rep bonus.

The cynabal only has a slight fitting advantage over the Vagabond if the Vagabond and Cynabal are both fitting 425mm Autocannons, otherwise, it's inferior. And that slight grid advantage doesn't allow you to offset the disadvantages.

I think the Cynabal needs to find a new niche;


very much so ...
a stronger emphasis on projectile damage and projection over the vaga would make sense .. nerf armour tank in exchange


Think rolling damage bonuses into one, and then giving it a tracking bonus might work?


tracking and falloff bonus sounds too powerful too me


As opposed to neut power with blood raiders and the incredibly powerful combo of web strength/dps with serpentis? It would fit in perfectly and balance along class lines very well. It's also a nice continuation with the bonuses the drami gets...
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#273 - 2014-04-08 00:46:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I love how most everyone here has completely glossed over talking about the ninja'd 25% damage buff the phantasm is getting. It didn't drop any guns. Love it love it. <3
The damage was not nerfed, look at the newly enhanced role bonus.

Edit: misread the post, though it's not being buffed either by my math:
3*2.5 = 7.5 effective turrets
Vs
3*2*1.25 = 7.5 effective turrets


They rolled the 5% damage per level bonus where the AB is now on top of the original 100% dmg bonus, and added 25% more damage on top of that without removing any guns for free without any offset. It's a buff.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#274 - 2014-04-08 00:49:23 UTC
Arsine Mayhem wrote:
Viribus wrote:
Hey remember when you guys introduced tier 3 BCs and no one ever saw Cynabals again? Then all those t1 cruiser buffs, navy cruiser buffs, and HAC buffs? Good thing the Cynabal's getting a nerf, it's such a terrifying and viable ship currently (this is sarcasm)


Yep, Cynabal is a bad ship.

I saw someone in one by Rens a few days ago and thought, why?

i saw that guy too!

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Naomi Anthar
#275 - 2014-04-08 01:06:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Notice how both of those ships are T1 cruisers, with negligible cost in comparison to the Vigilant? And yes, the Vexor can output about 1k with heat, full rack of guns, double webs, and (I think) Heavy Drones is where those numbers come from.

The Vigilant damn well better be superior in some ways, otherwise there is literally no reason to fly it compared to the T1 Gallente cruisers.

That whole "niche" thing that Grath was talking about? That means that ships have a reason to exist. What you're talking about, is that apparently the Cynabal should be worse than the Stabber. Because that's what you're asking for, by complaining about the Vigilant in comparison to the T1 Gallente cruisers.


Nah by all means i don't want to Vigilant to end up as bad ship. You don't get something. The so called "market" actually put vigilant where it belongs. Ship is superior to other pirate cruisers right now. It's simple - if there would be low demand on this hull - price would drop. But you know what ? People want it for insane dps/ insane utility/ very solid tank combined with good speed. Now that this is ship without single drawback, no single i repeat. Fitting it is actually pretty easy aswell.

New Vigilant will be same as previous ... INSANE, but a bit less. Still insane.

With Cyna story will be pretty diffrent. It does not bring dps of vigilant to the table, aswell as no utility or tank. All Cyna is fittings/mobility.
Actually i think it is not op (as pirate cruiser of course) ... it was just some other ships underperforming. Which was fixed (AHAC balance pass, t1 balance pass, navy cruisers balance pass). So it should stay as it is with other pirate cruisers getting treatement.

And stop saying that i said something i did not ! You can actually check my posts where i'm not happy about Cyna changes.
Being liar won't help in forum where you can browse previous posts in topic.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#276 - 2014-04-08 01:08:45 UTC
Catherine Laartii wrote:
Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Catherine Laartii wrote:
I love how most everyone here has completely glossed over talking about the ninja'd 25% damage buff the phantasm is getting. It didn't drop any guns. Love it love it. <3
The damage was not nerfed, look at the newly enhanced role bonus.

Edit: misread the post, though it's not being buffed either by my math:
3*2.5 = 7.5 effective turrets
Vs
3*2*1.25 = 7.5 effective turrets


They rolled the 5% damage per level bonus where the AB is now on top of the original 100% dmg bonus, and added 25% more damage on top of that without removing any guns for free without any offset. It's a buff.

No, they just compensated the loss. 25% stacked with a 100% bonus is a 150% bonus, not 125%.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#277 - 2014-04-08 01:12:21 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
This... is not looking good for the Rattlesnake.



I'm pretty confident it'll get the bonus to sentries too. The Domi will have the niche of flexibility, with the range and tracking bonuses and the ability to use bonused light drones, while the Rattler will go down the pure DPS route.



Or the Rattler could get MWD speed bonuses to heavies so that they can apply damage better in practice; or the bonus to damage could be large enough to make the Rattler undisputed king of brawling while keeping it weak at a distance. Lots of ways this could be done.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#278 - 2014-04-08 01:17:27 UTC
Phantasm: Looks fun, but was the fitting nerf really necessary? As it is right now it has trouble making use of all its slots, and after taking away 45 CPU and giving it 2 new low slots, it will find that even harder (unless Co-Procs are mandatory now or something)

Ashimmu: Looks good.

Gila: Looks broken as hell. In a powerful way.

Vigilant: Good as ever.

Cynabal: Serious issues here. Cynabal is already having issues due to being outclassed in almost every single category by the new Vagabond. It just has 50m3 drones and a tracking bonus going for it, which is really not enough IMO, especially when compared to the monster tank of the new Vagabond and the signature bonus that makes it unhittable. The fitting nerf only makes the Cynabal less appealing. Please reconsider the changes here.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Blueclaws
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#279 - 2014-04-08 01:25:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Give the Ashimuu back it's third utility highslot. If you're serious about making it viable for NOS, then don't make me sacrifice a turret to use 3 of them. The ship's dps sucks badly enough as it is.


I would disagree with this. Consider the bonus it gets to the NOS with this pass now and the ROF buff as well. Also just doing some funny math, it looks like with 2 turrets and the additional drone damage plus a heat sink in the new low slot you have slightly more DPS than a 3 turret one heat sink setup now.

On top of that depending on if you use an ACR in your setup now, you may not need it and could fit another trimark or damage rig.
Again funny math Big smile I could be terribly wrong.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#280 - 2014-04-08 01:26:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Should look like this:

CYNABAL

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
7.5% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret tracking speed

Role Bonus:
100% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage


Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 3(-1) turrets, 2(+2) launchers
Fittings: 1100 PWG, 335 CPU(-15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2330 / 2300(-25) / 2065
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1415 / 490000(-1250) / 2.88
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 263(+6) / .45(-.0045) / 9047000 / 5.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 75 (+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47km(+2km) / 390(-33) / 7
Sensor strength: 18(+2)
Signature radius: 115(+5)


2 Utility highs would be nice especially with the extra dps with the launchers, which would mitigate some of the dps lost. Since I didn't really run the dps numbers off of the top of my head (just carried over the stats for the dram, basically), I figured the extra launchers, more space for drones, and better damage application would compensate. If it's too low, I would be fine with bringing up the role bonus to 125%, and if it's too high, I'd be fine with leaving out the launcher slots.

I also do NOT agree with the giant proposed PG nerf or the mass increase, and am mystified since it seems like the devs are still thinking it's 2010 and cruisers haven't been buffed. The cynabal is now a poor ship in comparison to the HACs in almost every respect, and seems to even have some difficulty vs the t1 stabber. Adding a tracking bonus in with dropping a gun offset by better damage bonuses should help it to compete with the current reality of how effective the cruiser and frigate rebalances have been.