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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

First post First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#281 - 2014-04-08 01:35:20 UTC
Blueclaws wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Give the Ashimuu back it's third utility highslot. If you're serious about making it viable for NOS, then don't make me sacrifice a turret to use 3 of them. The ship's dps sucks badly enough as it is.


I would disagree with this. Consider the bonus it gets to the NOS with this pass now and the ROF buff as well. Also just doing some funny math, it looks like with 2 turrets and the additional drone damage plus a heat sink in the new low slot you have slightly more DPS than a 3 turret one heat sink setup now.

On top of that depending on if you use an ACR in your setup now, you may not need it and could fit another trimark or damage rig.
Again funny math Big smile I could be terribly wrong.



Why would I *not* need an ancillary current router? The ship is losing 200 grid.

A few drones isn't worth that. It's literally not. I'd rather they just keep the damn drones, and not gut the fitting.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Midori Tsu
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#282 - 2014-04-08 01:35:57 UTC
I feel like the phantasm could do with better cap life.
Blueclaws
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#283 - 2014-04-08 01:40:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Blueclaws
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Why would I *not* need an ancillary current router? The ship is losing 200 grid.
A few drones isn't worth that. It's literally not. I'd rather they just keep the damn drones, and not gut the fitting.


I would agree with that, just keep your drones and give me my 6 high slots. Smile
Naomi Anthar
#284 - 2014-04-08 01:43:55 UTC
Midori Tsu wrote:
I feel like the phantasm could do with better cap life.


I already did play with numbers, with extra 105 cap (more with skills/implants) AND that it will now not be penalized by mwd (19%total - for meta one) and it won't consume as much per activation with ab compared to mwd. It actually got hella lot of cap life and even can apply some neut pressure !

Even more you can get away without cap booster now. So you get additional mid to play with , not just 2 lows.
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#285 - 2014-04-08 01:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Catherine Laartii
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
I feel like the phantasm could do with better cap life.


I already did play with numbers, with extra 105 cap (more with skills/implants) AND that it will now not be penalized by mwd (19%total - for meta one) and it won't consume as much per activation with ab compared to mwd. It actually got hella lot of cap life and even can apply some neut pressure !

Even more you can get away without cap booster now. So you get additional mid to play with , not just 2 lows.


That and having 5 lows means that if you were going with a shield buffer setup and didn't want to sacrifice any tank, you could just plop a cap power relay or two on there and be stable.
Machagon
Plate of Beans Incorporated
#286 - 2014-04-08 02:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Machagon
Cynabal
+2000 hull
Gallente cruiser bonus changes to: +50% hull repairer amount per level.

You're welcome
Catherine Laartii
Doomheim
#287 - 2014-04-08 02:25:12 UTC
Machagon wrote:
Cynabal
+2000 hull
Gallente cruiser bonus changes to: +50% hull repairer amount per level.

You're welcome


Because only REAL pod pilots hull tank, and only REAL solo pirates fly angel cartel. XD
DR BiCarbonate
Doomriders.
#288 - 2014-04-08 02:36:31 UTC
Better sell your cynabal's boys. wont want that POS in your hanger.
crimsonshank
Percussus Resurgo.
Villore Accords
#289 - 2014-04-08 02:41:18 UTC
Thank you Rise I can not wait to catch a ratting gila with a Crow so it's 850 dps hammerheads can slow boat around while I peck it to death asking the unfortunate pilot "wheres your dps now?" you can thank Rise for ruining the game!Twisted

The cynabunn was awesome but more mass making it a space pig?

Dear CCP please quit hiring your subscribers and pay for real developers to help the game instead of hurt it.

Everyone knows how popular Rapid lights are in pvp now oh boy!
Mihnea Tepes
Marvinovi pratele
The Bastion
#290 - 2014-04-08 02:48:58 UTC
GJ, really, ashimmu wasnt the best before, but now you will take it the most important bonus to webs

usually I am quiet about changes, but this summer change really sucks

KEEP MY ASHIMMU AS IT IS :(
stoicfaux
#291 - 2014-04-08 02:49:41 UTC
stoicfaux wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
stoicfaux wrote:
This... is not looking good for the Rattlesnake.



I'm pretty confident it'll get the bonus to sentries too. The Domi will have the niche of flexibility, with the range and tracking bonuses and the ability to use bonused light drones, while the Rattler will go down the pure DPS route.

I disagree about the sentries. Two bonused heavies and the missile velocity bonus swapped to a kin/therm damage means the Rattlesnake is going down the road of "short" range brawler. (Short as in greatly reduced damage projection.)


So... Summer Rattlesnake with 3 Drone Nav IIs gives Ogre IIs a ~2900m/s MWD speed. Three DDAIIs gives a raw DPS of 1,268. Currently, pre-summer Rattlesnake Gardes with 3 DDAs do 751 DPS. Which means that for every second a heavy is flying towards the target, it needs 1.45 seconds on target to break even, e.g. 10 seconds of traveling means 14.5 seconds of being on the target before the DPS advantage kicks over Gardes (which have been firing the full 24.5 seconds.)

A Core Port Admiral NPC has 24,250 EHP versus thermal. The heavies' DPS will take 19.1 seconds to kill the NPC battleship versus 32.3s for the current Gardes. That means the heavies need to spend less than 13.2 seconds traveling (<38km range.)

A Serpentis Chief Protector cruiser NPC has 6,086 EHP versus thermal. The heavie's DPS will kill it in 4.8s (ignoring gun resolution) whereas the sentries require 8.1 seconds. That leaves the heavies just 3.3 seconds of travel time (<10km.) So you'll probably be better off using missiles on cruisers.

Cruise Fury missiles against cruisers are a no go, even with T2 rigor/flare rigs and a TP, leaving just T1/Precision cruise missiles.
* Cruise with T1/Prec = 304DPS * 1.5 (for therm/kin bonus) = 456 DPS.
* RHML with Fury = 324 DPS * 1.5 = 486 DPS.
Thus, RHMLs will do more DPS against cruisers then the Cruise launchers.


tl;dr - Ergo, it's a secret plot by CCP Rise to get the Summer Rattlesnake to mount RHMLs in order to increase RHML sales and thus "prove" the correctness of RHMLs.

Pon Farr Memorial: once every 7 years, all the carebears in high-sec must PvP or they will be temp-banned.

Mad Lurker
Matari Exodus
#292 - 2014-04-08 03:06:08 UTC
Joining on the "unnerf the Cyna" bandwagon here :

What made the ship interesting nowadays was the ability to do exotic fittings while being able to fit a somewhat decent tank and guns without having to riddling the ship with fitting mods.

Now maybe you consider that 100mn cruiser are OP and needs to pay the price for going that road but you introduce AB bonussed hulls at the same time so i wouldn't think it's the reason.

With such a huge nerf to its PG and increasing mass you're effectively hitting him right where he was performing a bit above the rest.

I certainly don't understand why, when you're coming up with pretty decent unique trait for every other pirate ship you make the Cyna more generic by bringing him closer to the normal and not giving angels a "proper" pirate trait.
Hell you're trying something potentially very intresting with guristas ship but you can't come up with some idea for angels?

Deacon Hallorhan
Full Mental Jacket
#293 - 2014-04-08 03:21:53 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:


The bonus here isn't the damage.. its the hit points. 500% more hit points on medium drones make them MUCH more resilient.. i bet more susceptible to focus fire (but hey that's why you have spares).



Also potentially more susceptible to ECM. Should they get a sensor strength buff too?

I'm not conviced about the new Gurista drone mechanics. I'll miss having shield sentry platform (with tackle).
Naomi Anthar
#294 - 2014-04-08 03:33:43 UTC
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 208(+33) / 3.6 / 1003000 / 5.01s

I think it's typo. Because if not. We got new king of agility in Ashimmu - which is surprising. Should be 0.6 agility probably.

Also in Cynabal agility - it says -0.0045 - one could say it is improvement. But the final number is oddly 0.45 compared to live 0.42 - so it actually is LESS agile on top of extra mass. It should be 0.4155 right ?

Didn't see those before. I'm sure it's not intended. Tho it would be cool if ashimmu would align like that ;>.
DRGaius Baltar
Perkone
Caldari State
#295 - 2014-04-08 03:34:11 UTC  |  Edited by: DRGaius Baltar
"CYNABAL

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret falloff

Minmatar Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret damage

Role Bonus:
25% bonus to Medium Projectile Turret rate of fire


Slot layout: 5H, 5M, 5L; 4 turrets, 0 launchers
Fittings: 820 PWG(-280), 335 CPU(-15)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 2330 / 2300(-25) / 2065
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1415 / 490000(-1250) / 2.88
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 263(+6) / .45(-.0045) / 9047000(+200000) / 5.64s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 50 / 50
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 47km(+2km) / 390(-33) / 7
Sensor strength: 18(+2)
Signature radius: 115(+5)

Look forward to hearing from you o/"


Thank you for giving me another reason why i should still continue to play Dota o7
Xavier Azabu
Half Empty
#296 - 2014-04-08 03:45:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Azabu
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Naomi Anthar wrote:


"while doing BATTLESHIP DAMAGE with damage application of frigate" fix it for you. Also it is faster than said maller , does better with cap problems. Also it does recon ship job better than recon ship at short ranges.

Yea, how it dares ...


Its damage is on par with things like the Thorax (830 DPS) and the Vexor (1k dps), stop being so dramatic


200 more dps over said thorax ... is still noticeable difference and Vexor dps ... not sure from what hole you got the numbers. But i bet this hole start with "A" letter. Either way those ships will have close to 0 tank while doing this dps, and completly 0 utility ... yeah and not even close to being apply this dps so easily.

I'm not dramatic - you can keep your vigilant if you ask me. But by saying it is so nerfed by the changes is quiet silly.

Just because you will have to fit ions now ? Still its going to be outstanding and well performing ship. Now also with more speed and lockrange for rail retardness.


You're forgetting that the Thorax is much cheaper and easier to obtain. These pirate faction ships should have a special role, no? I don't see the reason to reduce powergrid (to reduce damage to make the ship on par with T1 cruisers, or to reduce its tank) and increase range (why have a rail ship with a web velocity factor bonus?)... Demand for the Vigilant will reduce, so the price will increase (less people will farm for it) and it will have even less bang for the buck.

I agree with Grath and his numbers are not far off if you take skills into account because you'd likely tank the Vigilant a bit to make it last in a fight, since you're spending waaay more than you would for a Thorax.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


Notice how both of those ships are T1 cruisers, with negligible cost in comparison to the Vigilant? And yes, the Vexor can output about 1k with heat, full rack of guns, double webs, and (I think) Heavy Drones is where those numbers come from.

The Vigilant damn well better be superior in some ways, otherwise there is literally no reason to fly it compared to the T1 Gallente cruisers.

That whole "niche" thing that Grath was talking about? That means that ships have a reason to exist. What you're talking about, is that apparently the Cynabal should be worse than the Stabber. Because that's what you're asking for, by complaining about the Vigilant in comparison to the T1 Gallente cruisers.


Someone agrees with me. With these changes, I'd primary a Cynabal or Vigilant for that pricey killmail everytime. There are already hordes of Thoraxes and Stabbers flying around anyway.

Naomi Anthar wrote:
[

Nah by all means i don't want to Vigilant to end up as bad ship. You don't get something. The so called "market" actually put vigilant where it belongs. Ship is superior to other pirate cruisers right now. It's simple - if there would be low demand on this hull - price would drop. But you know what ? People want it for insane dps/ insane utility/ very solid tank combined with good speed. Now that this is ship without single drawback, no single i repeat. Fitting it is actually pretty easy aswell.

New Vigilant will be same as previous ... INSANE, but a bit less. Still insane.

With Cyna story will be pretty diffrent. It does not bring dps of vigilant to the table, aswell as no utility or tank. All Cyna is fittings/mobility.
Actually i think it is not op (as pirate cruiser of course) ... it was just some other ships underperforming. Which was fixed (AHAC balance pass, t1 balance pass, navy cruisers balance pass). So it should stay as it is with other pirate cruisers getting treatement.

And stop saying that i said something i did not ! You can actually check my posts where i'm not happy about Cyna changes.
Being liar won't help in forum where you can browse previous posts in topic.


I think the general problem here is that most of the Pirate cruisers are overshadowed by T1 cruisers due to cost, HACS due to tank/grid/focused bonuses, and Recon Ships due to their electronic warfare bonuses. So it makes sense that in an update you'd want to define unique roles for these ships to play while still giving them a little more viability damage-wise. I think that the Vigilant as-is has good bonuses but still isn't as cost effective as a tanky AHAC (Deimos, Zealot), T3 (Proteus), or Recon Ship (Rapier). Personally I agree with others who say that the Cynabal without nerfs should be the bar to raise the other ships to, to justify their rarity.

I disagree with you. Considering basic economics that I laid out - the lower the demand, the higher the price. That's why the Cynabal hull sells for less than 200 mil now, because people specifically demand it due to its excellence. More are acquired, more are sold, and the price competition increases and more money is made as more fly out the door. The Vigilant isn't in as much demand because you can just make a double-webbed Thorax or Rupture for much cheaper and get similar damage while buying 5 more for your friends for the same price as one Vigilant. Hence its high price tag. With these nerfs, it will be even more expensive, less-sought after, and less useful.
Cardano Firesnake
Fire Bullet Inc
#297 - 2014-04-08 04:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardano Firesnake
Phantasm Ok, Ashimu Ok, Vigilant OK...
Reducing the Scan resolution of the cynabal ok.
But why reducing the Powergrid of the Cynabal if you want it can fit easy... ?

With the buff of all the other pirat ship I think you already nerf heavily the Cynabal in fact.

Posted - 2010.07.01 11:24:00 - [4] Erase learning skills, remap all SP. That's all.

Torei Dutalis
IceBox Inc.
Rogue Caldari Union
#298 - 2014-04-08 04:26:02 UTC
Xavier Azabu wrote:


I disagree with you. Considering basic economics that I laid out - the lower the demand, the higher the price. That's why the Cynabal hull sells for less than 200 mil now, because people specifically demand it due to its excellence. The Vigilant isn't in demand because you can just make a double-webbed Thorax or Rupture for much cheaper and get similar damage while buying 5 more for your friends for the same price as one Vigilant. Hence its high price tag. With these nerfs, it will be even more expensive, less-sought after, and less useful.



Generally commodities that are less than desirable tend to languish at low prices on the market. The prices of the cynabal and the vigilant have both been declining over the past year to (could be wrong) all time lows. The volume of trading on these items has remained fairly constant for both of these ships which either means there has been an increase in the availability of these ships, or the competition from the recent re-balance of competing ships has been driving the price of these ships into the metaphorical ground. The fact that the cynabal is trading at the price vagabonds were at only a month ago is a telling metric, and it only looks poised to continue its downward trend. Just some interesting tidbits to look at in regards to the relative balance of ships.



DRGaius Baltar
Perkone
Caldari State
#299 - 2014-04-08 04:28:15 UTC
Is the primary reason for the Cynabal nerf because "Kill2" got dumpstered by them in provi regularly?
Naomi Anthar
#300 - 2014-04-08 04:31:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Naomi Anthar
Xavier Azabu wrote:
STUFF


Yeah yeah you are right. Vigilant prolly gonna drop in price to 5kk isk. Because who would pay more if you can get thorax to do it's job better at 10-11kk isk now.

You can sell your vigilants to me - i will even pay 20kk isk . I do this as act of mercy. Because this ship is going to suck so much as this guy said.

Contract to this character - accepting in high sec/low sec only.