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[Kronos] Pirate Faction Cruisers

First post First post First post
Berluth Luthian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#301 - 2014-04-08 04:33:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I'll get together with the other balance guys and talk about the Cynabal asap and get back to you all. We talked initially about the overlap between Angel and Minmatar and decided to try and make it work without making large changes. All three Angel ships are very popular (relative to other pirate faction ships) and generally regarded as 'fun' as far as I know, so risking negative impact with a bigger change didn't seem worthwhile.

I'll make sure we take another look though.

Cynabal ideas:
increased structure hp
overheat damage penalty reduction
increased targets and energy transfer range for a kind of cap chain/kite/tinker meta
Xavier Azabu
Half Empty
#302 - 2014-04-08 05:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Xavier Azabu
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Xavier Azabu wrote:

Yeah yeah you are right. Vigilant prolly gonna drop in price to 5kk isk. Because who would pay more if you can get thorax to do it's job better at 10-11kk isk now.

You can sell your vigilants to me - i will even pay 20kk isk . I do this as act of mercy. Because this ship is going to suck so much as this guy said.

Contract to this character - accepting in high sec/low sec only.

Don't get me wrong - Vigilant is rarer than the Thorax, has a better layout, is a specialty ship, and is harder to produce. So it is going to have a higher price tag. But I'd rather use or lose a Thorax for PVP relative to the cost. Basically, more bang for the buck. The buyer of a Thorax will probably be happier with his use of ISK than a Vigilant pilot.

Right now a Vigilant Hull is 230 mil. It can fit Neutrons and has a nice webbing bonus which probably frees up a midslot (it doesn't need double webs to hold down something in brawling range). It also has an extra lowslot. The Thorax has the same resists but is missing a midslot and can't fit neutrons easily. However it is around 9 mil. With Ions it does really good damage and with tracking bonuses it can apply it well. You can plop two webs on a Thorax to have webbing powers that approach the Vigilant's. Maybe the Vigilant does well with that falloff bonus but when you're in brawling range it's not going to make that much of a difference.

Torei Dutalis wrote:

Generally commodities that are less than desirable tend to languish at low prices on the market. The prices of the cynabal and the vigilant have both been declining over the past year to (could be wrong) all time lows. The volume of trading on these items has remained fairly constant for both of these ships which either means there has been an increase in the availability of these ships, or the competition from the recent re-balance of competing ships has been driving the price of these ships into the metaphorical ground. The fact that the cynabal is trading at the price vagabonds were at only a month ago is a telling metric, and it only looks poised to continue its downward trend. Just some interesting tidbits to look at in regards to the relative balance of ships.

You reminded me of some basic economics. I'd think that the demand for the Cynabal isn't that bad right now but obviously Vagas etc., are competing with it right now which is why this rebalance is a prime-time to make some changes to make it stand out at all. Others might argue that it is the iconic pirate faction ship and shouldn't be messed with.

As for the Vigilant, it has plenty of competition in the brawler category and I doubt that demand is keeping up with supply. I'd imagine that there is an overstock of Vigilants. But wouldn't the price eventually go up if that overstock got sold out and the demand dropped? Maybe it's easier to acquire these things than I think. Even with your notes on the overall price of the Vigilant, it is still a specialty item and demands much more money than the other cruisers that it competes with.
Exploration Frontier inc
#303 - 2014-04-08 05:18:11 UTC
Nice changes overall!

I'm just a bit sad for the gila, ni idea how much dps this 500% bonus can enable (a lot, no? O_o) but I'm very sad that the only true option for a bulky shield sentry ship is now gone.

Other than that, the indirect nerf to the cynabal seems legitimate. Its a fun ship to fly, no need to nerf his stats. Nerfing the fitting instead makes fitting tighter without truly impacting its gameplay.

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Kasife Vynneve
Gallente Federation
#304 - 2014-04-08 05:19:23 UTC
5 mb needed on Gila. That or give some light drone bonuses to cover the missing drone.
Altus Finleigh
Valkyrie Armored Escorts
#305 - 2014-04-08 05:27:50 UTC
So with a single web you can cut the new Gila's dps in half
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#306 - 2014-04-08 05:33:31 UTC
The gila change hurts me deeply, it works for the worm but it doesn't scale and leaves it bad against anything but heaviely webbed frigs and costs it all of its range.

I use a phantasm because of the dual high, I like that it actually has all its slots now but the highs are what I lived by in it.
Colt Blackhawk
#307 - 2014-04-08 05:53:56 UTC
Why didnĀ“t I sell my phantasm and gila some days ago?!?!?!
Now they will be even more useless sh.....

[09:04:53] Ashira Twilight > Plant the f****** amarr flag and s*** on their smoking wrecks.

Les chevaliers de l'ordre
Goonswarm Federation
#308 - 2014-04-08 06:09:30 UTC
About phantasm

can you add some Scan Resolution on this ship because is really too low.

You have a nice tracking some interesting speed in ab. But the scan resolution are ******* joke if you try to look some small ship like dictor fregate destro etc.

Also with you layout, it's about impossible again to fit some beam ( perhaps the good idea will be to remove these guns from the game because it's almost impossible to use them "fitting problem" ).
King Fu Hostile
Descendant Command
#309 - 2014-04-08 06:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: King Fu Hostile
TrouserDeagle wrote:
Grath Telkin wrote:
Stop crying about the serpentis ships, they were legitimately the only really unique ships left in game that didn't suck.

Oh god no not the massive herds of 90% web ships ruining the game...oh wait thats not a thing never mind stop crying about being webbed.

Awesome changes Rise

so its ovepoweredness is determined by how many people use it?

Pretty much yes

If serp ships were overpowered, or even especially viable, you might actually see people flying them regularly.

But you don't. They are expensive niche ships.

EDIT: What you see in space are Cynabals, which are apparently crap according to the experts in this thread.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#310 - 2014-04-08 06:19:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
So, with CCP Rises track record of, doing things his way.

Gallente Cruiser Bonus:
10% bonus to kinetic and thermal missile damage (was 10% drone damage and hitpoints)

Caldari Cruiser Bonus:
4% bonus to all shield resistances

Role Bonus:
500% bonus to medium drone damage and hitpoints (was 50% bonus to Light Missile and Rocket max velocity)

Slot layout: 5H, 6M, 4L; 0 turrets, 4 launchers(+1)
Fittings: 670 PWG(+40), 400 CPU(+50)
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 3200(+12) / 2200(-125) / 2490
Capacitor (amount / recharge / cap per second) : 1400(+25) / 530000 (-1250) / 2.85
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 195(+31) / .66 / 9600000 / 8.78s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 20(-105) / 100(-300)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 58km (+3km) / 285 / 7
Sensor strength: 22
Signature radius: 145(-5)

I'd be curious as to what role you see this as able to fit.

With all 5's, Hams and Furies, you have under 200 DPS with no BCU and around 220 with 1 BCU (it is supposed to be a drone boat, so should be able to fit drone upgrades, yes?)

2 Valkyrie II, that even with the new MWD bonus will not be able to catch and engage much more than a webbed AB cruiser. 600m/sec orbit speed negates them engaging anything faster than they can keep orbit on.
Forget Hammerheads unless your target is stationary. Infiltrators and Vespa's might be ok as long as you have all day for them to apply damage through what are usually the highest tanked for resists.

Sorry but; 500% bonus to Drone Damage is totally useless if they are unable to apply that damage. Orbit speed and activation proximity will see your drones not applying damage more than they do applying it.

If "Activation Proximity" is accurate; once your drone reaches "Activation Proximity" (2000m from target) it then drops from warp speed to orbit speed and engages. If the targeted ship moves to 2001m your drones will cease firing and enter warp speed to again reach Activation Proximity.

Was gimping the Gila so it is unable to field a flight of ECM drones deliberate, or just an oversight?

I currently use my Gile to run 6/10 DD sites and the odd frigate kill but don't see this as possible after the changes. So yet another ship along with RLML Caracal totally removed from PVE and only a very niche role in PVP.

Oh and should I sell my Rattlesnake now?

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Midori Tsu
Northern Coalition.
#311 - 2014-04-08 06:23:09 UTC
Naomi Anthar wrote:
Midori Tsu wrote:
I feel like the phantasm could do with better cap life.

I already did play with numbers, with extra 105 cap (more with skills/implants) AND that it will now not be penalized by mwd (19%total - for meta one) and it won't consume as much per activation with ab compared to mwd. It actually got hella lot of cap life and even can apply some neut pressure !

Even more you can get away without cap booster now. So you get additional mid to play with , not just 2 lows.

I'm just basing it off of EFT. Sure you can say its better than its current form but personally i feel like it could still do with better cap life. Everything about it is heavily dependent on cap.
Jaime Gomes
Unkindness Incorporated
Who Dares Wins.
#312 - 2014-04-08 06:30:14 UTC
Should we expect a blaster + heavy drone bonus for the rattle? Besides can someone explain to me what's the point in all this?

Since ahacs got buffed i have no clue why nerfing the cynabal. -280 PG? are you serious? Better sell it and stockpile on vagabonds.

Vigil makes no sense to me. I haven't seen a vigilant for months now. They must be sooo op people don't use them to honor l33t pvp.

Gila.......i have no clue why the fu........thank god for those 2 medium drones. Hope to jesus you don't encounter a frigate cause not havin' the capability of taking a full flight of lights is simply mental.

Ash - pretty cool. However wonder if you tough that having a ship with neuts + web range bonus + bs ehp isn't a bit unbalanced. But hey gg.

One last thing. I have been a dog owner for 15 out of my 24 years of existence and i can sense the smell of bullshit a mile away.

All this drone nerfing, with emphasis on the number of drones you can deploy, seems a very cheap way of taking some load of the server so that in a few months you will happily present to us those nice and tidy graphics on how much improvement the server got. Don't fix the will go far.
PrettyMuch Always Right
#313 - 2014-04-08 06:39:02 UTC
The Gila change may allow you to create a remote rep setup between your drones and your ship Big smile

Fed Hammerheads with Drone Durability skilled to Level 4 will you give you 3,500 armor HP per drone or roughly 4750 omni EHP per drone.

The Scope
Gallente Federation
#314 - 2014-04-08 06:59:41 UTC  |  Edited by: NetheranE
CCP Rise wrote:

I'm back!

If this is what you bring us, I'm extremely disappointed. How do you still justify having a position as a game developer if you suck at developing?

These changes are off-the-cuff, cookie-cuttered so horribly that you are literally deforming multiple ships out of their actual potential roles into ships that will never see use except by the uneducated and mentally challenged.

Viribus wrote:
lmao all these people thinking the cynabal is OP or even viable. Jesus it's like eve-o's knowledge of the metagame is perpetually stuck 3 years behind the curve.

I bet you guys still think the hurricane is overpowered

Confirming that people are as stupid as we thought if they still think the Cyna is OP and needs such a ridiculously over-nerf.

Seriously Rise, what the **** is that TWENTY FIVE PERCENT grid nerf?! "Master of projectiles" ships just got turned into most-worthless-ship-of-the-patch.
Crunching its grid so that things like dual-prop-tanked-arty-medneut (which dont exist) dont fit could be acceptable, but considering they arent real, well, **** you know, your changes are pretty much "looks OP, nerf it into the dirt so hard its inhaling soil."

Please point clearly on the doll where the naughty Cyna touched you when you slept.
While you're at it, show us where the Vigilant told you to touch it, because apparently you hate that ship too.

:NOTE: Ash, Phant, Gila look fine. Vigilant is practically as bad off as Cyna, but not nearly as terrible.
Simulacra and Simulation
#315 - 2014-04-08 06:59:42 UTC
just be careful about getting stuck on the status quo of five drones. once you let go of that, what remains is the fact that the gila launches what are essentially T1 frigates.

still, that the ishtar does sentries better is a weak reason for denying the sentry option to gilas. with the extra rig slot and missiles, the gila had purposes over Ishtars. I don't feel strongly about the gila personally, but there are better reasons for the sentry denial, and you haven't explained the light drone denial.

give it 25 bandwidth and a 400% bonused sentry

do it. do it. DO it. do it. DO IT.
#316 - 2014-04-08 07:01:22 UTC
Maybe adjust gila (and rattler) in this way:

- boost missile bonus
- nerf drone bonus
- give it possibility to fit drone links unit

All that balanced in a good way.

More versatility
State War Academy
Caldari State
#317 - 2014-04-08 07:08:02 UTC
I love how people are complaining about medium drone damage application. Were your Ogres and Gardes applying their DPS any better before the change?

Also, shut up about bonuses sentry drones. We do not need a return to drone assist fleets where the equivalent of 300 sentries can be slaved to the same person, sentries which have so much ehp that they're immune to bombing.
Simulacra and Simulation
#318 - 2014-04-08 07:15:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
that was exactly what i was thinking, except a small drone assist gang. friends?
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#319 - 2014-04-08 07:16:38 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:

Keep shifting numbers in db, maybe at some point you will come out with something worth to be called expansion.

Simulacra and Simulation
#320 - 2014-04-08 07:18:55 UTC
oh come on now, you don't get to say that until after it hits. have some faith