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Wormholes

 
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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Hel Bent
Durendal Ascending
#561 - 2014-03-25 17:02:44 UTC
So you convert gravs to anoms so you no longer have to scan them down and now you want to make new sigs invisible? Are you trying to kill wormhole mining entirely?
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#562 - 2014-03-25 17:03:59 UTC
the size of the rocks they put out there should tell you they've always been trying to get miners killed

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Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#563 - 2014-03-25 17:10:53 UTC
Moloney wrote:
People in this thread seem to mistakenly believe that the k162 shows up immediately on being activated from the other side.

This may have been true briefly after the patch that brought us the discovery scanner but it is no longer true.

New k162 do not show immediately without refreshing your Sig list.

If dscan is an exceptable function of the game, why is repeatedly toggling the Show Anomalies check box (an identical action) accepted?


THIS.

Hitting that button is JUST THE SAME MECHANIC as hitting Scan and using probes. But using probes takes away assets from gaming. Either a dedicated scout or a high slot of a ship doing... stuff. Therefore it is my opinion that the probe solution is better because that means that in Eves most unforgiving space Intel is your strongest weapon. As it should be, IMO.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#564 - 2014-03-25 17:11:57 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
the size of the rocks they put out there should tell you they've always been trying to get miners killed

Seems true.

Unfortunately, the easier you make it to catch them, the few targets are actually available.

WH mining should be a lot better and a bit safer than it currently is, on the basis of I can't kill someone that isn't even there.
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#565 - 2014-03-25 17:15:13 UTC
Hel Bent wrote:
So you convert gravs to anoms so you no longer have to scan them down and now you want to make new sigs invisible? Are you trying to kill wormhole mining entirely?


They probably are. No, I really believe that.

Remember when Greyscale years back did the data on how much ABC ore that came from W-space? Remember how upset the CSM Block People where that Null was not 'teh best at all'? Remember how they wanted to REMOVE the ABC from W-space?

I'd love to see the data on how much ABC flows from W-space these days. I guess equal or more, and this due to the fact that Sigs automatically showing up on the Scanner makes it safer. I have no data to back this guess up though.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#566 - 2014-03-25 17:35:15 UTC
I was under the impression that toggling the "show anomalies" was not a fresh query

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Von Keigai
#567 - 2014-03-25 17:38:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Von Keigai
Moloney wrote:
New k162 do not show immediately without refreshing your Sig list.

Mostly correct. A K162 will be pushed to everyone in the system if any existing anom or sig goes away.

Quote:
If dscan is an exceptable function of the game, why is repeatedly toggling the Show Anomalies check box (an identical action) accepted?

It is not a terrible comparison, in that both the discovery scanner and dscan are usable anytime by anyone. Still, dscan has limited range. Also, when dscanning if you miss the 10 second window when the cloaky moves off the wormhole, you never see it. By contrast, twiddling your show anoms is not time-limited -- it will show the new sig at any time after the new sig is spawned.

A better comparison is in the old way people did things, that is, having probes out and hitting scan every so often. But as Bjurn Akely points out, there is a cost to using probes. Namely, you lose a slot and a bit of CPU on each ship that you scan from. This is not much, but it is not nothing.

vonkeigai.blogspot.com
Tyrant Scorn
#568 - 2014-03-25 17:56:09 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I was under the impression that toggling the "show anomalies" was not a fresh query


It is the best way to detect new signatures.

The Tyrant King

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Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#569 - 2014-03-25 18:01:47 UTC
I thought the "show" linky thing at the bottom was better for that

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RudinV
Sons Of Mother's Friend
Can i bring my Drake...
#570 - 2014-03-25 18:17:13 UTC
The Best things CCP can make for w-space are:
1) make grav sites scannable signatures.
2) Remove this signature appearing thing completely.
3) Fix black holes- its torture to pass trought it.
4) Add may be some PvE content ( yes, i want sleeper Dreadnought...and bpc for it^^)
5) dont know what else, just dont like to stop at 4Roll
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#571 - 2014-03-25 18:19:20 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Two step wrote:
PVE in w-space shouldn't be safe, at all, ever. You should *always* be watching over your shoulder.

yes, you SHOULD need to watch over your shoulder all the time, but if you ARE watching, you should NOT be punished by stupid mechanics that make your watching irrelevant.


^^ this
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#572 - 2014-03-25 18:31:02 UTC
regarding my previous comment about why it's so hard to find wormholes on SiSi... it makes sense if it is intended to give an advantage to the player at the head of the wormhole via surprise, and this proposed change also makes sense. the next step in trying to strike a balance using this strategy is dscan.

I'm still not sure what we're commenting on, though. Fozzie didn't define the problem, exactly.

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#573 - 2014-03-25 18:50:59 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
regarding my previous comment about why it's so hard to find wormholes on SiSi... it makes sense if it is intended to give an advantage to the player at the head of the wormhole via surprise, and this proposed change also makes sense. the next step in trying to strike a balance using this strategy is dscan.

I'm still not sure what we're commenting on, though. Fozzie didn't define the problem, exactly.

The reason it's so hard to find WH's on SiSi is completely unrelated to any proposed changes.

It's because the vast majority of WH's from W-space to K-space are scanned out from the inside out, spawning K162's from the inside.

And on SiSi, with nobody actually living in WH's, there is nobody to scan them out and spawn the K-space exits.
The only way to get in is to find a naturally occuring K-space to W-space direction wandering WH.

And with a glance at a chart I have, that looks to be only a few hundred WH's scattered across all of eve where the WH can be scanned down from the K-space side.

Nothing to do with changes.
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#574 - 2014-03-25 18:51:48 UTC
Easy there. Delaying the discovery probe is not that big an issue. Delaying whether PROBES can detect a new entrance is kind of rediculous. If it's now too easy to avoid combat, it would make the opposite true. It would be impossible TO avoid combat under this system.

Not to mention that you won't even be able to fight them on a wormhole because you can't scan their wormhole?

STOP listening to only the PVP community just because we ***** the loudest.
Tyrant Scorn
#575 - 2014-03-25 18:56:16 UTC
Hey everyone,

My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates.

I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings.

The Poll can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform

The Tyrant King

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space chikun
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#576 - 2014-03-25 19:06:57 UTC
Phoenix Jones wrote:


Its a bit simpler actually. The vocal minority want something to shoot. Everytime a wormhole opens up, those on the otherside immediately scatter and pos up.

This would give them 3 to 5 minutes of hole rolled blackout cloak immunity to "gank" them before they pos up.

Its mainly because they don't want to do a pos bash for 2 days (they cant stay online for that long, and the ships needed to bash pos are not the ones you would want to bring in a pvp combat situation). In addition, bashing a pos is not something a small gang wants to do, as they want kills, not a structure grind.

Can't punish people for not fighting besides bubbling everything, and at that point, its a waiting game (and what active pvp combat pilot wants to spend hours upon hours patrolling a bubbled wormhole looking for people who won't leave the pos shield).

The issue is more inherent than a wormhole showing up on your scanner overview.


I think the risk needs to exist, but not to the extreme Fozzie is proposing. This is game-breaking. I'm one of those folks who enjoy ganking someone who isn't paying attention in WH space - guess what? it still happens. Get a reputation for only ganking people, and folks will POS up. Get a reputation for talking to them afterwards, or maybe even offering a fair fight and follow through? You'll get far, far more fights.

It pains me to say this, but a new type of bear has evolved in wh-space. A PvP-bear.
Rain6637
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#577 - 2014-03-25 19:18:21 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
regarding my previous comment about why it's so hard to find wormholes on SiSi... it makes sense if it is intended to give an advantage to the player at the head of the wormhole via surprise, and this proposed change also makes sense. the next step in trying to strike a balance using this strategy is dscan.

I'm still not sure what we're commenting on, though. Fozzie didn't define the problem, exactly.

The reason it's so hard to find WH's on SiSi is completely unrelated to any proposed changes.

It's because the vast majority of WH's from W-space to K-space are scanned out from the inside out, spawning K162's from the inside.

And on SiSi, with nobody actually living in WH's, there is nobody to scan them out and spawn the K-space exits.
The only way to get in is to find a naturally occuring K-space to W-space direction wandering WH.

And with a glance at a chart I have, that looks to be only a few hundred WH's scattered across all of eve where the WH can be scanned down from the K-space side.

Nothing to do with changes.


correct. and it's been left that way. assuming it is intentional, the next question is why the player at the head of the wormhole is allowed to decide when a k162 spawns (I'll call him "bob"). currently, bob's element of surprise is as good as it can be: the k162 shows up when he decides he is ready to use it. this proposed change extends bob's element of surprise even better, to two minutes after he's there, like a time machine.

I'm just saying that the proposed change is in line with what appears intentional.

also, testing this change on SiSi will be a little weird. (not being able to see the signature of the wormhole you just jumped through)

Help, I can't download EVE

President of the Commissar Kate Fanclub

PLEX: A Giffen good? (It's 1B?)
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#578 - 2014-03-25 19:18:22 UTC
space chikun wrote:

...I think the risk needs to exist, but not to the extreme Fozzie is proposing. This is game-breaking. I'm one of those folks who enjoy ganking someone who isn't paying attention in WH space - guess what? it still happens. ..


Really? On what alt? Blink
NinjaTurtle
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#579 - 2014-03-25 20:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaTurtle
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above?

DING DING DING
Who knew a half decade of absolutely no design outlook would lead us here!?

Wormholes aren't messed up because you cant catch anyone; they're messed up because for years they've been completely ignored in the long-term design of EVE and left to gather dust in their 'little' corner of EVE.
And you wanna pick it up, blow off the dust and wonder why you're not holding '2nd pass of tier 1 frigate' grade balance in your hand.
Bjurn Akely
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#580 - 2014-03-25 20:43:36 UTC
NinjaTurtle wrote:
Olari Vanderfall wrote:
CCP needs to decide what W-space is actually about. Is it about exploration, ganking, PvE, PvP, all the above?

DING DING DING
Who knew a half decade of absolutely no design outlook would lead us here!?

Wormholes aren't messed up because you cant catch anyone; they're messed up because for years they've been completely ignored in the long-term design of EVE and left to gather dust in their 'little' corner of EVE.
And you wanna pick it up, blow off the dust and wonder why you're not holding '2nd pass of tier 1 frigate' grade balance in your hand.


Personally I'd say that the only thing messed up in wormholes are just the thing CCP Fozzie is looking at right now. Every other problem is a problem for the whole game. Like POS. Sure, it's a pain, but it's no different in Lo. The scanning thing however mucks **** up real bad in W-space.