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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#601 - 2014-03-26 00:23:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Todd Jaeger
AssassinationsdoneWrong wrote:
Todd Jaeger wrote:


If anyone wants to know the second somebody rolls into you, it's not different from people wanting to stay local in k-space, so they can POS up their carrier the second they get a +1 neutral in local..



Or have the opportunity to reship and greet the would-be gankers in a ship and a fleet they can organize a fight against rather than just get ganked.

Let's face it this is nothing more than a "promoting of ganking" proposed mechanic. Plain and simple and if that's how you get your rocks off then go gank in high sec and suffer the sec loss penalty.

Even better, looking at your post again, you remove local from Null, see how that goes and then when they put the fires out in Jita realise that they aren't going to want that anymore than we want this.

TL;DR Wormholes were never broken they got broken by CCP dumbing the game down for empire and forgetting we were still there and the same changes couldn't apply. Now it's a backpedal race to try and fix it but by people who spend all their game time in Null.

Silly sausages all of them.


Yes it would promote ganking. And that is bad because? ...

Ganking a farming fleet of anyone who has a clue about W-Space is really hard. Most of the time it's just bad people or carebears that get ganked in sleeper sites though.

Those who have a clue about how to farm properly can do it safely with impunity (except prepared log-on traps). Bubbles, pickets, extreme site running speed (10-15 minutes) and the fact that a new inbound signature most likely does not have a full fleet assembled and ready the second it spawns - makes it almost safe. If you just do marauders, MJD out.

For the most part, W-Space PvP is this:

a) Consensual PvP. This is mostly between the larger entities. One comes and says "Wanna play?" and then both brawl and have a good time.
b) Log-on traps. Just look at Quantum Explosion's killboard.
c) Sieges (basically an extension of Log-On traps). Happen kind of rarely - probably least desirable for all parties involved.
d) Ganking farming fleets.

This is a result because nobody "roams" with fleets in W-Space like nullsec people do. FIghts don't escalate at POSes or SOV structures. These instances above summarize W-Space pvp pretty much. The proposed change would make d) more viable against people who are almost immune to it.

For those who are already bad it wouldn't make a difference, since they seem to be bad enough that we can catch them on a regular basis.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#602 - 2014-03-26 00:31:57 UTC
Todd Jaeger wrote:

For those who are already bad it wouldn't make a difference, since they seem to be bad enough that we can catch them on a regular basis.


There is nobody so bad they they can't get worse.

And when the going gets tough, the weak pack up and leave, then nobody gets to kill them in WH's ever.
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#603 - 2014-03-26 00:33:56 UTC
Anhenka wrote:

Ohhh... That hurts my head.

You want to try living in WH's without a consistent income source, third party tools like reliable WH mapping software, and destroying the strategic choices on choosing a WH based on Class, WH effect, and what static it has? While making sure every PvE group has to be able to deal with the maximum potential (dynamic) spawn of any site?

Home a pulsar one day? NOT ANYMORE, it's a Wolf-Rayet now! Good luck using your shield ships!

Nice c1 WH... Shame all the currently spawned anomalies are c4 ones you can't run.

Honestly. There are bad ideas, like the OP. But this one... this is priceless in a truly special sort of way. If I were looking fro a way to make WH space vacant in a hurry, I don't think I could have proposed better.


I'm not proposing anything like that. You're taking what I would like to see to extremes and not considering the possibilities. I don't really want to have the thread head in a different direction but I will clarify a little.

The changes don't need to be so dramatic and I think people could easily adjust, rather than knowing that their system always spawns a C2 static and running the forgotten whatever has these frigates as triggers. Maybe 90% it's C2, but sometimes the static is a C1 or C3. Maybe you're in a pulsar and you notice that occasionally there is an increase in intensity of color emanating from the pulsar which you know gives everyone an additional 10% shield hp since you've been living there and have noticed. I would much rather see w-space offer some mysteries than have everything explained and wikified. I would prefer a more intuitive method of gameplay that involves sound and visual cues which require knowledge and skill not some 3rd party spreadsheet that explains every aspect down to the hundredth decimal.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
#604 - 2014-03-26 00:39:54 UTC
Todd Jaeger wrote:


Stuff and things




The issue is that no sig should be "unscanable" for any amount of time if you actively have probes out. It's doesn't even make any sense.

"it's there and people can jump through it for x amount of minutes, but you can't scan it".

We are talking about going from one extreme (sigs popping up on overlay without scanning) to the other (you can't scan it for x amount of minutes). Just put it back the way it was and make people scan for grav sites again. Quit "fixing" what's not broken.

No trolling please

Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#605 - 2014-03-26 00:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Olari Vanderfall wrote:

The changes don't need to be so dramatic and I think people could easily adjust, rather than knowing that their system always spawns a C2 static and running the forgotten whatever has these frigates as triggers. Maybe 90% it's C2, but sometimes the static is a C1 or C3. Maybe you're in a pulsar and you notice that occasionally there is an increase in intensity of color emanating from the pulsar which you know gives everyone an additional 10% shield hp since you've been living there and have noticed. I would much rather see w-space offer some mysteries than have everything explained and wikified. I would prefer a more intuitive method of gameplay that involves sound and visual cues which require knowledge and skill not some 3rd party spreadsheet that explains every aspect down to the hundredth decimal.


Ok, we can basically ignore small 10%ish changes in WH effects, especially on the lower end of the classes.

As far as shifting statics, either the mass limit continues to be determined by the lower level (so that c4's or lower can't bring in caps), or they are altered so that the higher static class WH determines mass limits, in which case we get people from higher levels piling more mass then intended into a lower class. If the mass is determined by the lower limit, then nothing changes overall. Just means you roll your static one more time on the rare occasion you connect to a class you didn't want.

"Dynamic spawns" Just means you always have to bring enough to deal with even the worst possible cases of triggering unidentifieable wave triggers. It's just bad design to force everyone to use ships capable to dealing with double or triple spawns because RNG made the ships shot early the trigger.

As to "intuitive method of gameplay that involves sound and visual cues which require knowledge and skill":

No. Hell no. Never, ever, ever. I and many others play on potato visual settings, with the sound off because I'm being social on coms, multiboxing, and listening to music. If I need to have clients high enough to impart important information via visual effects, and have the sound high enough to let me always determine important audio information, then that greatly cuts into my ability to do things like watch movies or talk on coms, or simply not have my computer explode due to running 5 clients on high settings. No. All information needs to be in a format easily available even at lowest settings with the sound off.
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#606 - 2014-03-26 00:54:09 UTC
Bane Nucleus wrote:
Todd Jaeger wrote:


Stuff and things




The issue is that no sig should be "unscanable" for any amount of time if you actively have probes out. It's doesn't even make any sense.

"it's there and people can jump through it for x amount of minutes, but you can't scan it".

We are talking about going from one extreme (sigs popping up on overlay without scanning) to the other (you can't scan it for x amount of minutes). Just put it back the way it was and make people scan for grav sites again. Quit "fixing" what's not broken.



The argument "If it aint broke, don't fix it" is just deeply flawed in that it prevents change and improvement. And it's not about sense. It's about changing the meta. There really isn't much in EVE that makes much sense anyway.

But if you want an EVE reason: After the singularity collapses the spacetime continuum is distorted immediately forming a wormhole. During that process exotic particles are generated that quickly decay, emitting radiation in the process. After a few minutes that radiation is strong enough to be picked up by sensor equipment. There you go. It all makes sense now.

And the overlay is NOT extreme since the only moment when you truly care about it (notably farming) everybody spammed scan on their probe picket before that change. So really, all the sensor overlay changed is reduce the workload (and make it easier for lazy people to get the same information).
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#607 - 2014-03-26 00:55:59 UTC
BayneNothos wrote:
I'm going to drop off this thread now, there's no point continuing on until CCP Fozzie starts talking. This thread is too long and we're at the point where people are just rehashing things they've said previously to people who aren't reading all 30 pages. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just the feeling I'm getting from the last like dozen pages...

Before I do though, here's my collected thoughts.

CCP Fozzie, decloak and engage or jump back to HS

K162's spawn in the destination system when warp is INITIALISED to the WH from the original system
The discovery scanner, when used like Dscan, gives instant intel on new signals.
Under the current system, if you roll your static before you start doing sleeper sites and use the discovery scanner as above, you are immune to EVERYONE trying to attack you as you can react and leave before they even jump the wormhole. Capitals and login traps excluded.
THIS is why people are advocating for a delay.
A SHORT delay, 60 to 120 SECONDS would fix this.
Anymore than 5 MINUTES (Even that's pushing it) would be way too excessive and I am against that.

Or this could be fixed correctly
0% signals should not show up automatically in the discovery scanner for W-Space
Only display once scanned by a probe, like the old working system.
WH's should only spawn when someone lands on grid with it.

Ore Sites should be back to scannable.
WH polarisation should be based of a ship stat rather than a default static value for everyone, I suggest Sensor Strength to give an additional use for bigger ships and ECCM modules.


And since I forgot to add it

The comsic anomaly, the thing you scan down, doesn't sit exactly on the WH itself, it's anywhere from a few metres to a few kilometre's. Those who remember back when this entity could decloak you know this well. This deviation also means that the WH's exact location changes over DT as the WH entity itself is respawned. As such, warping to zero on a pre DT BM of a WH can mean you end up 5-6 kilometres away after DT. The current deviation amount feels like a bug and either should be

Fixed so they sit exact on top of one another at all times
Made into a feature where the deviation is made anywhere up to 125km away from the cosmic anomaly.
Making it into a feature would also allow some crazy things like respawning the WH itself on the same grid in a different location every hour or so. Would certainly make WH fights interesting if the WH was shifting around on grid every so often.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#608 - 2014-03-26 02:49:54 UTC
Delaying the appearance of the K162 dungeon is a misdirected attempt to solve an invented problem.

If one side of the WH is visible, the other side should be visible. Just stick with both ends of the wormhole retaining their existing signatures. Do not convert one end to a K162 just because someone warped to the other end. Thus you remove the problem you invented for yourselves, way back in Apocrypha when that original design decision was made to allow intel to be gathered by people paying attention to the game.

And while we're in the process of removing intel options in the misguided quest to "improve PvP", why not switch null sec to delayed local?
zoonr
Scions of Karishal
#609 - 2014-03-26 03:18:16 UTC
This change only make sense if the same is done for local in every part of Eve, for pilots entering a system via a stargate or a WH.
They should not appear in local for the same amount of time (may be linked to the mass of their ship as suggested).

otherwise, it will unfairly affect the W H players.

CCP, please stay fair in this issue. As the concept is a good one, but there is no reason to only apply it only to WH residents.
Sith1s Spectre
Holesale
Holesale Operations
#610 - 2014-03-26 05:17:40 UTC
So, with these proposed changes it's gonna make seeding caps real easy.

Send the caps through and safe log them even before they have time to see the sig pop up on their overview.

What could possibly go wrong with that idea.

Resident forum troll and fashion consultant

AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#611 - 2014-03-26 08:18:04 UTC
Todd Jaeger wrote:


Yes it would promote ganking. And that is bad because? ...

Ganking a farming fleet of anyone who has a clue about W-Space is really hard. Most of the time it's just bad people or carebears that get ganked in sleeper sites though.

Those who have a clue about how to farm properly can do it safely with impunity (except prepared log-on traps). Bubbles, pickets, extreme site running speed (10-15 minutes) and the fact that a new inbound signature most likely does not have a full fleet assembled and ready the second it spawns - makes it almost safe. If you just do marauders, MJD out.

For the most part, W-Space PvP is this:

a) Consensual PvP. This is mostly between the larger entities. One comes and says "Wanna play?" and then both brawl and have a good time.
b) Log-on traps. Just look at Quantum Explosion's killboard.
c) Sieges (basically an extension of Log-On traps). Happen kind of rarely - probably least desirable for all parties involved.
d) Ganking farming fleets.

This is a result because nobody "roams" with fleets in W-Space like nullsec people do. FIghts don't escalate at POSes or SOV structures. These instances above summarize W-Space pvp pretty much. The proposed change would make d) more viable against people who are almost immune to it.

For those who are already bad it wouldn't make a difference, since they seem to be bad enough that we can catch them on a regular basis.


No you're wrong sorry. You've listed the above and also listed the counters for it. For every single one there is a recreation and a counter for that recreation if the player/s are committed enough to doing it.
So if you want to gank a farming fleet you have already said there IS a way of doing it it's just not YOUR way of doing it because it requires dedication time and planning.

So instead you opt for a mechanic that has absolutely NO counter at all because you're lazy and probably who the instant overlay was designed for anyway.

What I think myself Bane, Proc and a whole slew of people are trying to tell you is this .......... if you move WH's from "safe if vigilant" to "absolutely no chance of seeing potential threats until you are pointed and bubbled" you are not only going to remove people from those WH's in their droves but they also take the ganks you are looking for with them.

Short term thinking man.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Lenroc Elisav
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#612 - 2014-03-26 08:43:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lenroc Elisav
Look, you can arbitrarily hide w/e information comes to mind from players. You can make ships invisible for DScan for 5 minutes after passing a WH (wh polarizes the hull so dscan waves bend around it) or you can say that when a K162 is forced to open in a system it send an EMP waves that disturbs all ship sensors in said system or w/e. This is sci-fi so why not? Are changes in that register good for the game? I would say no.

I understand and agree that spoon feeding information is also bad. I hate local in Kspace with a passion, no way to grab someone that doesn't want to be grabbed unless you devote a stupid amount of time stalking them until they lose patience and make a mistake.

That being said the only balanced change to make (in my opinion) is to make signatures discover-able only via probes. Such a change will not spoon feed information but it will make it available for the people looking for such information.

Oh, and also make the WH naturally spawn at both ends regardless if they are scanned/warped to or not. edited - Not so sure about this one, as giving the active assailant a head start in scanning and inserting a spy doesn't seem unbalanced although closing up systems via not warping to static is a bit meh. Maybe naturally spawn it after a timer if the WH wasn't warped too ??? - edited

Or you could make so that K162 spawns will send a brachion wave that shuts off all ships in system for 10 minutes (that will get some ganks going on for both large and small corps out-there) Bear.
calaretu
Honestly We didnt know
Riddle us this
#613 - 2014-03-26 09:06:59 UTC
Nitrah wrote:
I speak as a scout who has scanned chains several days a week for two years now looking for fights.

This proposed change is dumb. If a group of people is paying attention, then good on them. You should not be penalized for playing well. Most of my kills happen because people aren't paying attention despite all available tools.

You want to shake things up? How about making wormhole k162s spawn as soon as their originating side spawns, instead of at warp-to. That way you can't lock all the doors and bear up with impunity. Those annoying as hell corps who flash crash every exit as soon as they're opened into have to grow a pair.

How about making mining sites scannable again so miners get their false sense of security back and mine in WH space again?

How about adding expeditions to WH space with long expiration timers and big rewards to incentivize scanning out big chains over bearing up in your single hole.

Please do not make this change. It is garbage and will not have the intended effect you think it will.


If any change then this is the only sensible. Stop making k162 dependant on player action.
Dring Dingle
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#614 - 2014-03-26 09:09:14 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:



Fozzie.. if you do this.. at the very least you need to put ORE Anoms back to Signatures if even only in WH space...

Its one thing to have a ship in a combat anom 'combat ready' for delayed intell on potential baddies in system (or a potential link)... but AGAIN industry in wh's will take another hit.

This would almost make a corp that wants to produce its own ships in wh space impossible to run. You simply wont get the materials. (not that i believe there are any left doing this after odessy)

Wormholes sales was flooded with holes with rorquals for sale when the first change hit. This one will just change it to a barren wasteland even more full of carebare site runners that only have ships for killing sleepers... and backup ships for killing sleepers in their SMA.

Pvp stats will probably improve... but you will be stripping any of the depth to gameplay in this area of eve.

You will be left with:
- Those who brave running sleeper sites
- And those who like to gank brave people running sites, because they will be able to enter, cloak and have a 'X' minute window of effective invulnerability, giving whomever is already in the system 1 second to click dscan at the correct moment to catch them before they cloak.

o7
Pytria Le'Danness
Placid Reborn
#615 - 2014-03-26 09:17:53 UTC
Disclaimer: this is not my wormhole character, I'm too lazy to log over.

In my eyes it would be way over the top if the incoming sig were undetectable. If you cannot scan it down it becomes impossible to get a warning even if you are attentive. While I'd love if people wouldn't immediately scatter once I warp to the WH and the K162 spawns not giving them any way to detect there are hostiles inbound is not balanced either.

I'd love to see a way that offers protection to those who pay attention but punishes those who don't. That said I also found the constant spamming of d-scan and/or the probes exceedingly annoying, but it's preferable to the automated warning that's present now as well as the almost guaranteed gank that was proposed.

Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#616 - 2014-03-26 11:44:24 UTC
Fozzie, It would be nice if you said something like "OK I get it - no delay" or "Screw you Bane Nucleus - I'm doing this anyway"

You have enough back and forth to make a decision, so make one. This thread is long enough, the horse is dead, corpse beaten, over stated, re hashed, circle logic complete........

Make a decisions and move on to the next item. It's gone from good discussion to the same bleating over and over.

I stuck a fork in it...... It's done.
Bleedingthrough
#617 - 2014-03-26 12:39:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bleedingthrough
Fozzie and CSMs,
sorry for the earlier grouching in this thread. It took me a while to understand the impact of the proposed changes.

Let me explain my thoughts on why this could actually work with some tweaking (mainly low class WH dweller point of few):

Who would benefit form that change?
Not only can C5 and C6 groups roll their statics to other C5+s more reliably in one go but also with about half the number of accounts involved compared to a typical lower class WH static. While C5+ groups with lower class static “should” have the numbers to abuse the proposed mechanic to their advantage, who chain rolls lower class WH statics for PvP anyways? Way to painful, way too few targets!
It is needless to say that most lower class WH groups don’t have the numbers to roll in one go on a daily basis. Most of their PvP (from my experience) comes from their chain or people trying to crush connection a WH or do something else foolish.
The main benefiter from the proposed changes would be C5+ dwellers with a static that allows for capitals to pass. They could chain roll till they find their prey. Only chance to adapt to that threat at this point would be a lucky d-scan before the scout cloaks. After that something is tackled and the fleet on standby has a warpin.
Also not mentioned before: This would also apply to not activated WHs in your chain. This change would clearly benefit groups that scout their surroundings. Something I like doing. 

Is this balanced?
I think the negative impact for lower class WH dwellers would be far less severe than anticipated in this thread. Again: Who chain rolls lower class WHs for PvP? In my experience you roll for a new chain but chain rolling for PvP in the static not so much. The fear of C6 guys rolling their C4 static for PvP is more or less hypothetical. However, I think this can be addressed with little tweaking. More on this later.

So what about C5+ capital escalation farmers?
Well, if C5+ PvPers start chainrolling like mad the 5-men-alt-farming-group will be screwed. I could care less. But what would be the impact for the “real” dwellers? It is not uncommon to have 20+ dreadnoughts in your “home fortress” (I was told that a certain group moved more than 100 dreads when they moved to a new home) and I am certain that larger groups can easily adapt to the proposed changes. The aggressor can only bring so and so many ships. But to be honest I know too little about “big scale” WH engagements and can only speculate here.

One thing is sure; this will certainly raise the barrier for new groups to move into a C5 or higher.

Tweaking for the C1 guy that didn’t sign up for the same risk as the C6 guys?
While I think this could actually work, there are some severe drawbacks. Only going to talk about one here: “C1 guys did not sign up for the same risk as the C6 guys”

This needs to be addressed.

A potential better solution than the stuff suggested already would/could be an actual delay base on the WH class difference, e.g.

Standard Delay = sD (This is a set constant, for instance this could be 55 s)
Incoming WH class = Ic
Target WH class = Tc
Actual Delay = aD

If incoming WH class (Ic) is equal to the target WH class (Tc) the actual delay (aD) is:
aD = sD.
If incoming WH class (Ic) is greater than the target WH class (Tc) the actual delay (aD) is:
aD = sD * 1/[2*(Iw-Tw)]
and If Ic < Tc the actual delay is:
aD = sD * 1/[2*(Tw-Iw)].

This means that a C6-C4 connection which got activated from the C6 side would only give ¼ of the standard delay. However if it got opened from the C4 side (K162 from the C6 side) the C4 guys would have four times the standard delay to assemble a fleet.
This still does not protect C4 guys from C6 guys coming via a C3 ->C4 static that the C6 guys opened. But hey good scouting needs to be rewarded and the backup is probably a few WH out then.
This is a very simplistic formula. It would be just as easy to factor in the target system class by adding another factor, e.g. *6/(7-Tc). To a degree that C1-C3 dwellers almost feel no difference.

Do I like this idea? Not realy!
I fear that this mechanic could result in too random ganks. I really like to be in control of the risks I take and we take risks every day in WHs. That is what we came in for!
Also I think that a broad spectrum of activities should be accomplishable in WH space, including mining. People should come to w-space not only for sleepers, PI and pew.
My little group would be severely impacted by these changes since we make our ISK in our C5 static and this would become a target for chain rolling and the delay. I guess we can adapt. C5s should not be risk free. 
This would be very rewarding for groups that scout a lot. Maybe we can get the same delay for local if we enter k-space from WHs??? Please, these null bears need to be ganked!

If capital escalation farming is the problem you try to fix maybe there are simpler solutions?
A SleeperAssemblyLine at the sun comes to mind. This is an NPC structure at the sun that assembles the sleepers while pulling resources and energy directly from the sun. This structure could have a RF timer in the range of 6h and if it gets destroyed no more sleepers will spawn in that system until it reassembles itself a month later. Also all remaining sleepers will flee to other systems. There is your conflict driver without the stupid POS bashing. Static farmers already take high risks, home farmers need to defend these structure.
Also capital escalations spawns could be changed so a lot more teamwork (more than triage, web and blab) is needed to clear them.

If lack of pew is the problem?
Give groups a way to increase the chance of incoming K162s from similar class WHs. Make WHs attractive for more people, e.g. fix these old POSes and risk to assets which makes it hard to recruit in a game like EvE.
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#618 - 2014-03-26 13:13:22 UTC
Bleedingthrough wrote:
If lack of pew is the problem?
Give groups a way to increase the chance of incoming K162s from similar class WHs. Make WHs attractive for more people, e.g. fix these old POSes and risk to assets which makes it hard to recruit in a game like EvE.
Wormholes need occupants in every hole. The attraction/benefit for wormhole life needs to be good enough that the gates are flooded with new people. Good, bad, or otherwise those new occupants will make some isk and die, others will make a lot of isk. Point is, the resources that are currently not used in many many wormholes will see the light of day.

The downside of this, just like in populating nulsec, is that with overcrowding will come more contact between occupants. Or is this an upside? It could be good or bad, depending on your perspective. So fix black holes, pos security, corporation allowed numbers (actually ccp may have fixed this recently), and allow for the possibility of an entire large-population corp to occupy a single pos. Not like you would WANT to keep all your eggs in one basket, but a super-pos only for wormholes may just influence more to live there.
Nix Anteris
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#619 - 2014-03-26 13:25:17 UTC
I realise I'm late to the party, and I don't want to read 32 pages, so apologies if this has been suggested.

I was originally quite vocal about the original changes, I would still prefer that people had to work for their intel, and think that requiring vigilant players protecting the fleet is an absolutely fair counter to the risk of being jumped, when weighing up the rewards to be had in w-space. So ideally I would like the old behaviour back, requiring players to actually use probes to know that a new signature was present.

If that is completely off the table how about tying dungeon visibility to ship visibility. The signature remains undetectable for as long as no ship has de-cloaked on grid. As soon as cloak is broken to warp, launch probes, jump back, whatever, then the signature is visible to all.

This gives enough time to perform the limited number of actions you can perform before you are *required* to de-cloak (either by choice or by force). Skilled scouts will be able to use this to full potential, while bunglers will alert everyone to their presence as is currently the case.

It might let you narrow down a point in space where there is a ship, but you will have to launch probes to pinpoint further, so using this time effectively is paramount.

It might let you exclude half the system of targets, but require you to warp to look at the other half, still giving you an edge.

If you're good (or lucky), it might even let you fully locate a gang in space.

If you're bad then you'll de-cloak and be no better off.

If your fleet is bad then you'll get to shout "I told you to hold cloak!" on comms.
Red Teufel
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#620 - 2014-03-26 13:36:03 UTC
I'm surprised everyone wants that annoying having to probe every second trick. how about something to give people a good reason to flow through WH space and not just live there. something like an ESS for WH space. doesn't have to be about rats could be about moon goo for example. add some new content don't nerf something that is working fine.