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Potential Idea for Discussion: Delaying signature appearance for K162s

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Author
NinjaTurtle
THIGH GUYS
#581 - 2014-03-25 20:50:54 UTC  |  Edited by: NinjaTurtle
Bjurn Akely wrote:
Personally I'd say that the only thing messed up in wormholes are just the thing CCP Fozzie is looking at right now. Every other problem is a problem for the whole game. Like POS. Sure, it's a pain, but it's no different in Lo. The scanning thing however mucks **** up real bad in W-space.


That's a point Bronya brought up to me earlier and it is a good one. If you could correct a few of those major EVE level issues everyone's lives would get easier. I guess there's an aspect of personal metric in there for me in that I enjoy seeing things iterated upon, not necessarily constantly changing but at least in some state of cycle or flux. Deep down I think I'm a bit disappointed with CCP's overall 1st attempt at unmapped space.
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#582 - 2014-03-25 21:38:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Todd Jaeger
Well, technically one could argue the same thing about delayed local really. I mean no matter how hard you try, unless somebody decides to show himself, he can stay hidden.

So WHs are already actively hiding information from you, and it's considered a great thing that shakes up W-Space and makes it interesting...

Suddenly Fozzie is thinking about hiding more, and everybody is afraid because they are so used to the current state. I'm not saying that it's a great idea, but I don't think it's so bad either.
Rall Mekin
End-of-Line
#583 - 2014-03-25 21:39:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Rall Mekin
As a whole, I really think wormholes are fine. They have limited power projection, no local, and yet are a pure sand box. I love them, and I see nothing else needed.

The only downside was the sig scanner change that lets lazy people be uber safe because sigs magically appear--the previous system was the better one.

All they need to do is: delay on scanner, no delay if you are actively [ie, being alert and workig] probing. Alert people should be rewarded; people who let their guard down for an instant punished--in this way, the old system was superior.

This is also why I am fine that grav sites are no longer probable--the lazy miner without security faces sure death (eventually). The alert, non-afk miner can mine. It also makes sense in lore because our warp drive uses large gravitational fields to lock onto when initiating warp (if there is no bookmark).
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#584 - 2014-03-25 21:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: DetKhord Saisio
Two step wrote:
Sounds like a good change to me. Right now, many groups are farming wormholes nearly risk free. I'd like to see it based on time and on the number of ships that have passed through the hole. So maybe it takes 5 minutes +/- 2 minutes to show up, or when 2 (or maybe 3) ships jump through, whatever happens first. Perhaps the base time might be scaled on wormhole class, so C5/C6 residents have to wait longer for the K162s to show up, while the lower classes would have a little more warning time.
^This.

I have lived in highsec, nul, and WH space. All areas of the game always have risk involved, even highsec. There is no risk-free space.

The time-based delay should be based on system security of the space the K162 opens into, with the fastest delay for highsec and slowest delay for WH and nulsec. Additionally, gate jumps in k-space could also use a security-based delay. Why just have the delay affect wormholes? I think this can improve the game for all.

For example, wormholes do not have residents/visitors show in local chat until they talk in local. This makes it quite dangerous if you do not utilize d-scan and watch for new signatures. In contrast, k-space (highsec, lowsec, nulsec) shows new residents/visitors in local chat immediately.

A better implementation of OP may be a system-security-based delay to both of these across all of New Eden: new signatures in scanner window and visitors shown in local chat. Ofc, wormholes will still not show players in local chat unless they chat in local.
Todd Jaeger
Mayhem and Destruction
#585 - 2014-03-25 21:59:48 UTC
Let me actually go deeper.

* Delayed local is actively hiding information from players - regardless of your efforts to find them (there are no probes that tell you who is in system). It's effects are what make WH space so interesting.

* An ever changing W-space network is actively hiding information, because it's very unlikely that you have people checking sigs in every system of your chain. You may know about the sigs of the system you farm in, but you probably don't know about the system next door.

If anyone wants to know the second somebody rolls into you, it's not different from people wanting to stay local in k-space, so they can POS up their carrier the second they get a +1 neutral in local.. I think this would refine W-space to make it even more unknown and uncertain, reducing the safety of farming and promoting more PvP by making chain-rolling viable at all.

It's hypocrisy that information should be available to the pilot if he wanted to, but shun k-space for serving similar information on a silver platter (admit it, all of you wormhole people make fun about local in k-space).
DetKhord Saisio
Seniors Clan
#586 - 2014-03-25 22:12:47 UTC
Todd Jaeger wrote:
admit it, all of you wormhole people make fun about local in k-space.
Well yeah, ofc.

Spend any amount of time consistently in w-space and you find yourself wanting to shoot neutrals whenever you visit highsec.
< must resist > lol.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Goonswarm Federation
#587 - 2014-03-25 22:36:18 UTC
if it's a problem that players want to leave their hole locked down and quietly eat cake (not a surprise), I think the better change would be removing the option of locking down a hole.

this proposed change isn't going to cause anyone to change their play style, or make anyone stop using a lockdown protocol.

especially when wormhole space's natural state is isolation (RE: SiSi), I don't see this change making a difference... certainly not the kind of difference that can be seen in the numbers that fozzie will look at.

I hope signatures are turned into something that can be balanced. I think it would have been done by now if signature use was a mandatory part of gameplay for everyone. (because right now, signature use is largely optional in k-space)

signatures are one of the most unsophisticated aspects of the game: all ships and all players of any skill level receive the same information with the same efficiency. that's not really in the spirit of EVE, and neither is this change.

dumb all the things!
ROSSLINDEN0
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#588 - 2014-03-25 22:42:20 UTC
Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Hey everyone,

My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates.

I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings.

The Poll can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform


Where/when can we see the results
Winthorp
#589 - 2014-03-25 22:51:52 UTC
ROSSLINDEN0 wrote:
Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Hey everyone,

My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates.

I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings.

The Poll can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform


Where/when can we see the results



https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewanalytics

Needs more people using it though, but if this threadnaught is anything to go of to compare it too then CCP Fozzie is going it alone with these drastic changes.
AssassinationsdoneWrong
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#590 - 2014-03-25 23:05:07 UTC
Todd Jaeger wrote:


If anyone wants to know the second somebody rolls into you, it's not different from people wanting to stay local in k-space, so they can POS up their carrier the second they get a +1 neutral in local..



Or have the opportunity to reship and greet the would-be gankers in a ship and a fleet they can organize a fight against rather than just get ganked.

Let's face it this is nothing more than a "promoting of ganking" proposed mechanic. Plain and simple and if that's how you get your rocks off then go gank in high sec and suffer the sec loss penalty.

Even better, looking at your post again, you remove local from Null, see how that goes and then when they put the fires out in Jita realise that they aren't going to want that anymore than we want this.

TL;DR Wormholes were never broken they got broken by CCP dumbing the game down for empire and forgetting we were still there and the same changes couldn't apply. Now it's a backpedal race to try and fix it but by people who spend all their game time in Null.

Silly sausages all of them.

The Nexus 7's

What we fall short of in numbers we more than make up for in stupidity

Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#591 - 2014-03-25 23:05:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
One more thing to consider is the interplay of passive vs active remote sensing. Before odyssey, you had to drop probes if you wanted to know what signatures filled a system. That active searching could not be done (even with deep space probes) without periodically uncloaking and dropping probes. Post Odyssey those sigs were given out for free. The skill, thought and preparation which a scout utilized counted for a bit more than it does today and was a much more interesting game of cat and mouse. The scout and the sentry in pre odyssey days had interesting choices which odyssey designed out and that this proposed change will further diminish.

The proposed change in my opinion gets it all wrong. A better change would be to move wormholes into a category that requires active probes for observation. Reverting to requiring probes for all places of interest would be acceptable as well.
GulfXray
Grey Schatten
#592 - 2014-03-25 23:13:12 UTC
FWIW, I can't support the initial proposal.

What I can support 100% is removing the Discovery/Overlay Scanner.
BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#593 - 2014-03-25 23:24:10 UTC
Tyrant Scorn wrote:
Hey everyone,

My corporation member ShadownandLight created a poll with some questions related to this topic. Please take part in the poll so we can bring it up in an upcoming discussion we have planned with current CSM members and the wormhole CSM 9 candidates.

I am probably going to use the poll results to ask questions and point out community feelings.

The Poll can be found here:
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1mYmEjYc3te6TcC768QW836haSXVour1RnKgxFBTe3o4/viewform


I really wish that first question had an extra response of "No, the WH should spawn when someone first lands on grid with it." as this and WH's requiring the need to be scanned down, not auto displaying would completely solve all issues I have with WH's spawning and remove any need for a delay.

And I'm going to reiterate that until CCP Fozzie give a more clear direction what "Minutes" means to him, all discussion on this is pointless. A 1 minute delay is a big difference to a 20 minute delay and it seems people for this are looking at the short end of that with people against looking at the long end.
Winthorp
#594 - 2014-03-25 23:30:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Winthorp
BayneNothos wrote:

And I'm going to reiterate that until CCP Fozzie give a more clear direction what "Minutes" means to him, all discussion on this is pointless. A 1 minute delay is a big difference to a 20 minute delay and it seems people for this are looking at the short end of that with people against looking at the long end.


Agreed, while even us would have great fun ganking people all over the place with Fozzies desired changes here but in 6 months time those downtrodden folk that have been ganked every few days even though they have been active and vigilant at their keyboards will just leave for a simpler life and we will go back to two a year ago when WH's were a desolate place.

I think a lot of people me included have noticed how active and full Wh space has been the last 6 months to a year and i don't want us to take a step backwards.
mulgrew Zero
Weyland Mulgrew Corporation
#595 - 2014-03-25 23:32:54 UTC
Arkon Olacar wrote:
Seriouspoast: Go for the middle ground. Right now the K hole with appear as soon as someone activates the static/whatever wh grid by initiating warp to it. This gives the 'defenders' a good 20 seconds minimum notice before the scanner has a chance to arrive on grid with the wh, let alone jump through and make an impact. On the other hand under the new proposed mechanic a skilled dscanner will have been able to identify the location of a potential site running fleet before the K hole becomes visible (given that most occupied holes will have a handful of anoms max - an expo fleet would be harder to find). A much better change would be that K holes only appear once someone has jumped through from the other side. This gives both 'sides' an equal chance to find targets/gtfo without introducing hilariously broken situations where a gank could be taking place before the sig appears.



if you need to change whspace more then this seems best option or just take us back to the old system that worked quite well for most of us
Olari Vanderfall
Perkone
Caldari State
#596 - 2014-03-25 23:52:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Olari Vanderfall
CCP Fozzie wrote:
We investigated what would be involved with delaying the appearance of signatures on the sensor overlay, but that solution is somewhat unsatisfactory since players could always return to the old trick of spamming probe scans to check for the new sigs. Basically, the Sensor Overlay had only made the existing problem more visible, and it would be better if we could get right to the source.

The potential change would be to delay the appearance of the signature beacon when K162 dungeons spawn. This would prevent the dungeon from appearing on probe scans or the Sensor Overlay for up to a few minutes.

This change would make life in wormholes a bit less safe, and increase the sense of real danger that unknown space should include. The flipside is that actively hunting for pvp in wormholes should present more targets that have a slightly shorter notice to your arrival.

The delay could take a few potential forms, either a set timer of a couple minutes, a timer that has random elements or even one that is variable depending on the amount of mass that passes through the wormhole.



If the goal is to increase the sense of danger, a delay in K162 sig appearing is not the way to do it.

I think the main goal you're trying to do is to prevent farming of sites. People that don't want to fight, won't. Anything you do with a K162 timer is not going to change that. All you're doing is listening to a bunch of gankers that want kills on unsuspecting site runners.

If you want danger, how about randomizing w-space. It has been deconstructed so much that there is no sense of mystery. Remove the system names, randomly link different types of wormholes, mix up "statics", dynamic sleeper sites, random system effects, deployables that provide false intel, etc.

Please focus on the big picture!

Not on some arbitrary time delay, so Two Step can drop 30 T3s on a couple drakes in a C2 and crap up local with "gf".
Kynric
Sky Fighters
Rote Kapelle
#597 - 2014-03-25 23:58:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Kynric
Winthorp wrote:

I think a lot of people me included have noticed how active and full Wh space has been the last 6 months to a year and i don't want us to take a step backwards.


I agree completely. It would be a shame if rare species like the "pi pickup rorqual" or "gas site ratting pheonix" were to be completely removed from the wild.
Anhenka
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#598 - 2014-03-26 00:02:16 UTC
Olari Vanderfall wrote:

If you want danger, how about randomizing w-space. It has been deconstructed so much that there is no sense of mystery. Remove the system names, randomly link different types of wormholes, mix up "statics", dynamic sleeper sites, random system effects, deployables that provide false intel, etc.

Not on some arbitrary time delay, so Two Step can drop 30 T3s on a couple drakes in a C2 and crap up local with "gf".


Ohhh... That hurts my head.

You want to try living in WH's without a consistent income source, third party tools like reliable WH mapping software, and destroying the strategic choices on choosing a WH based on Class, WH effect, and what static it has? While making sure every PvE group has to be able to deal with the maximum potential (dynamic) spawn of any site?

Home a pulsar one day? NOT ANYMORE, it's a Wolf-Rayet now! Good luck using your shield ships!

Nice c1 WH... Shame all the currently spawned anomalies are c4 ones you can't run.

Honestly. There are bad ideas, like the OP. But this one... this is priceless in a truly special sort of way. If I were looking fro a way to make WH space vacant in a hurry, I don't think I could have proposed better.
Bane Nucleus
Dark Venture Corporation
#599 - 2014-03-26 00:06:47 UTC
This won't only have an effect on people running sites, but what about invasions? Chain rolling for someones wormhole becomes an almost risk free venture. No one knows it's there because it's delayed, but the enemy fleet starts pooring in. I personally love the race to the new sig.

No trolling please

BayneNothos
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#600 - 2014-03-26 00:22:34 UTC
I'm going to drop off this thread now, there's no point continuing on until CCP Fozzie starts talking. This thread is too long and we're at the point where people are just rehashing things they've said previously to people who aren't reading all 30 pages. This isn't directed at anyone in particular, just the feeling I'm getting from the last like dozen pages...

Before I do though, here's my collected thoughts.

CCP Fozzie, decloak and engage or jump back to HS

K162's spawn in the destination system when warp is INITIALISED to the WH from the original system
The discovery scanner, when used like Dscan, gives instant intel on new signals.
Under the current system, if you roll your static before you start doing sleeper sites and use the discovery scanner as above, you are immune to EVERYONE trying to attack you as you can react and leave before they even jump the wormhole. Capitals and login traps excluded.
THIS is why people are advocating for a delay.
A SHORT delay, 60 to 120 SECONDS would fix this.
Anymore than 5 MINUTES (Even that's pushing it) would be way too excessive and I am against that.

Or this could be fixed correctly
0% signals should not show up automatically in the discovery scanner for W-Space
Only display once scanned by a probe, like the old working system.
WH's should only spawn when someone lands on grid with it.

Ore Sites should be back to scannable.
WH polarisation should be based of a ship stat rather than a default static value for everyone, I suggest Sensor Strength to give an additional use for bigger ships and ECCM modules.