These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE Information Portal

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Luscius Uta
#1601 - 2014-03-27 12:25:37 UTC
While it was beyond silly that reprocessing gave better rates in an NPC station in highsec than in a sovnull outpost or at a POS (and totally unlike how you gave incentive for players to use a POS for their research and manufacturing needs), I think you should be able to have a 100% reprocessing yield with perfect skills, the best possible implant and maxed out outpost upgrade. Or alternatively, you could make a Rorqual able to reprocess items in its hold (at least when it's in deployed mode), and at greater efficiency - especially since you finally acknowleged that it needs love and that you're removing one of its uses.

Workarounds are not bugfixes.

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1602 - 2014-03-27 12:39:33 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Rivr Luzade wrote:
[quote=Inspiration][quote=Rivr Luzade][quote=Inspiration]
Isn't that obvious?
Less volume = less hauling = less risk and less pre-requisites = less costs.

A small scale producer can now do everything in a blockade runner and in less time!


Let me fix this for you: Less volume == more stuff in your ship == more value in your ship == more risk and prerequisites == potentially more cost

If I go with your other proposal: a POS is 2k m³ and a Refining and/or Compression module is very likely to be 4k m³, plus fuel and your Blockade Runner, which is of course fitted for tank and not cargo space,

Seriously, why don't you donate your account and all stuffs to me? You keep coming with some stupid taken out of context text after another. Seemingly hoping i will streamline all of your industry for you!

Producer != Miner

Do not take industry tactics i wrote for miners and present them as I wrote them for production and then act like I am high! On top of this you haven't read a word i written, at least not comprehensibly anyway.

If you loose slightly on refine for titanium and pyrite, it will not affect the production cost to the extent a POS is required to be competitive. The other minerals do not take up nearly as much space and can be shipped in refined form (refined by someone else).

In short your insulting!



K first let me address the competitive side of the equation.
A 4% advantage by using POS is enormous, and can't be shrugged aside. Especially, if the POS cost is shared by a corp...
If u use null sec numbers 86.8 to 72.4 then competitivity is really threatened

Now I understand there r the security aspect, fuel, and risk vs reward, but u we're speaking of competitivity and saying 4% is nothing... U know that the margins on most T1 ships is btw 10-20% ?


I think a good solution of compression array is to use the BP model, put the ore in a NPC station and use ur compression array remotely , and recover the compressed ore from the POS... Just an idea...

Alexia Marhx
The Witch's Den
#1603 - 2014-03-27 13:41:39 UTC
Shocked The new refining charts don't make any sense... First of all, well established up to date empire stations refineries should be amongst the best available. Once you have the 3 skills at level V (refining, ref. eff., and specific ore), output should be near 99.99%. I agree though that not all reprocessing plants are the same... Like ORE mining stations should give better output than Gallente Supreme Court stations... But the best empire stations should never, absolutely never, have lower output than a small plant on the field in hostile territory. Keep in mind that null-sec is literally a warzone! Very few would invest on an industrial facility on a battle field, and the workforce would be expensive, if any…

What should make low and null sec attractive is the minerals they hold, both in rarety and in quantity...

Also, some refining stations should be specialized in specific minerals, like, if I'm not mistaken, Caldaries are more familiar with Kernite than Gallentes...

I'd also like to make a suggestion: reviewing the refining "portions". Because, sometimes, you end up with 197 units of Arkonor and days from the next mining expedition (like me)... Lower their quantities while keeping the very same ratio, rounded down when appropriate... That way, refining a little amount would have more waste than a large quantity, which is realistic...
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1604 - 2014-03-27 13:49:58 UTC
Soldarius wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
The refining upgrade alone is worth more than 200 large pos's..


lol wut? Do you have any idea how much a Large POS costs?

http://eve-central.com/home/quicklook.html?typeid=12235

That's 254M each.

At your purported price, the implant would cost 50.8B isk, or about as much as a supercarrier or AT first prize ship.

Hmm.... you aren't by any chance in the market for a 4% refining implant are you? Because I've got a couple Id like to sell.

On another note, having compression at a station would render useless the ability to anchor compression arrays in all NPC space.

While it's true you can't contract to a POS, nor would I expect a single character trying to acquire the minerals for a cap ship to do all that hauling alone, you can sell raw ore and then buy compressed ore on the market, which is the method I would recommend. Or you can even put up exchange contracts selling raw ore and some isk in exchange for compressed ore.

Why would anybody bother buying the 4% implant when there is no advantage to having it? Oh and as the implant has absolutely nothing to do with installing a refining array and would not be lost if the outpost were to fall into unfriendly hands.. ..

And the price i quoted was an example of how much easier it is to replace a pos compared to an outpost.. As you can't just float the pos module in space without a pos neither can you have outpost refining without the outpost.


BTW; I have a NYX I would be more than happy to sell you for 50 bil.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Torg Rann
Tor Industrials
#1605 - 2014-03-27 18:18:36 UTC
This new compression/refining business needs a new contract type.

There should be a contract type, similar to a courier contract, that allows a pilot to request that someone either compress the ore or refine it into minerals.


  • Collateral would be needed.
  • Payment could be isk or a percentage of the ore.
  • The assumed refining percentage could be specified. Default to 100%, but could be anywhere from 1 to 114 percent. If someone changed the percentage to other than 100 it should be HIGHLIGHTED and in a BRIGHT COLOR to reduce scamming.
  • CCP should calculate the outputs from the compression/refining, again to reduce scamming.
  • The delivery station in the contract would not have to be the same as the pickup station, it should be HIGHLIGHTED and in BRIGHT COLOR if changed.


The new contract type would make compression/refining more available to pilots.
Torg Rann
Tor Industrials
#1606 - 2014-03-27 18:23:32 UTC
Compression should be added to the Orca, considering that compression for the Rorqual is changing so much.

Will compression require the Rorqual to be in deployed mode to compress?

Could the Rorqual/Orca compress while in a station or just in space?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1607 - 2014-03-27 18:55:09 UTC
Torg Rann wrote:
This new compression/refining business needs a new contract type.

There should be a contract type, similar to a courier contract, that allows a pilot to request that someone either compress the ore or refine it into minerals.


  • Collateral would be needed.
  • Payment could be isk or a percentage of the ore.
  • The assumed refining percentage could be specified. Default to 100%, but could be anywhere from 1 to 114 percent. If someone changed the percentage to other than 100 it should be HIGHLIGHTED and in a BRIGHT COLOR to reduce scamming.
  • CCP should calculate the outputs from the compression/refining, again to reduce scamming.
  • The delivery station in the contract would not have to be the same as the pickup station, it should be HIGHLIGHTED and in BRIGHT COLOR if changed.


The new contract type would make compression/refining more available to pilots.



This is where a supply contract would make sense.

Like a WTB contract, but able to have collateral from the supplier, and a material transfer from the buyer, with a duration from when it's accepted.

Useful for times when you want someone to build some things for you, and they want to make sure you'll actually buy them, rather than sticking you with a hundred ships which you won't be able to sell, on your own dime.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Draxius Hamalia
Clockwork Automatons
#1608 - 2014-03-27 21:57:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Draxius Hamalia
I'm a relatively new player who is focusing on Mining and Industry at the moment, so I know I don't have the experience of most of the folks on this thread. At my core, I'm a math guy. "Spreadsheets in Space" was a line used to sell me on the game, not keep me away from it.

There are pieces of the Refining experience I haven't played with yet (like Rorquals and compression), but on its face, the numbers make a lot of sense.

I agree completely with the intent of the changes, but I think that the math could use some polishing up. This method assumes the same increase in Ore to Minerals conversion of 38.1%, but simply alters how some of the calculations are done. That having been said, if there was a way to make the Refining output "look like" 100% to the player, I'd prefer that - this just address the underlying calculations.

Key for my new formulae (shorthand to save characters in the post).
S = Station Equipment rating
R = Refining skill
E = Refining Efficiency skill
P = Ore Processing specialty skill
I = % gain from implant (4% => .04)

So, the old formula is:
S + .375 * (1 + .02R) * (1 + .04E) * (1 + .05 P) * (1 + I)

While the proposed new formula is:
S * (1 + .03R) * (1 + .02E) * (1 + .02P) * (1 + I)

The problem that I have with the new math is that it shifts the value of Station Equipment from the least important number to pretty much the only important one. Skills end up with a "diminishing returns" effect that makes progression somewhat unpalatable.

My view is that the mechanics should be altered somewhat - Station Equipment and Refining Efficiency should help reduce waste, while Refining and [Material] Processing should increase base yield, as follows:
Base yield % = (1 + .03R) * (1 + .02P) * (1 + I)
Waste % = (1 - S) * (1 - .02E)
Net yield (pre-tax) % = [(1 + .03R) * (1 + .02P) * (1 + I)] * [(1 - (1 - S) * (1 - .02E))]

If you run the numbers, you'll find that at a 50% Station Efficiency, the results for the CCP proposal and my own are identical (same 72.4% at max skills + 4% implant, but all the #s do line up).

However, as you move away from 50% stations, the disparity becomes rather large (in both directions). Here are the numbers for max skill at 25%, 40%, and 60% stations
25% station:
- CCP proposal: 36.2%
- My proposal: 42.8%

40% station:
- CCP proposal: 57.9%
- My proposal: 60.5%

60% station:
- CCP proposal: 86.8%
- My proposal: 84.2%

The intent here is to create a significant, but less-than-linear, impact for Station Equipment. Low-/Null-Sec Industry can still prosper without invalidating Hi-Sec. A 20% boon to refining (CCP-proposed 60% Minmatar Output refining max) seems a little much to me.

On the flip side, the math would theoretically allow even higher level stations (up to ~74%) for even higher output before hitting what would be the new "Perfect Refine" ceiling.

Anyone have any thoughts?
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1609 - 2014-03-27 22:47:52 UTC
What about having regular compressed blocks from pos or station and higher yield rorq compressed blocks

Show da rorq some luv
Karaburan
Perkone
Caldari State
#1610 - 2014-03-27 22:58:26 UTC
Overall I think the changes outlined are great but am wondering about some of the secondary and tertiary effects. The one I am thinking about now is mineral prices and how they are used as an index for other prices in the game.

One example is that according to my understanding of bounties is that they use the value of minerals in destroyed ships for the calculated payout. If the mineral market is divided into minerals to be used in nearby systems to jita, and compressed ore market, how is this going to affect the indexed prices in the game? Will mineral prices fall dramatically and cause dramatic fluctuations in bounty payouts? Are there other examples of items/prices in the game that will be affected by the change in the mineral price structure?

Also, I assume that the mineral composition of items for bounty payouts uses the manufacturing bill of materials and not the refined mineral prices. Otherwise this could also affect bounty payouts as well.
CRNA
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1611 - 2014-03-28 00:34:50 UTC
Can someone help me out with one thing here please (either through PM or post)?

I'm trying to see how this will affect 0.0 miners in a simplified version. It sounds like they've increased mineral/topes composition of ore/ice to balance the lost minerals. I'm trying to figure where it will make sense to refine now - and if alliances need to upgrade refineries more so than they have now.

Assuming max skills and implants (which I have) - can someone break down how many minerals you'll get in comparison to now? Before you jump and say it was already done, what I'm confused about is the fully upgraded Minmatar outpost, as it sounds like you'll get extra minerals/topes refining in one of those vs other tiers of Minmatar upgrades, and compared to other 0.0 stations with no upgrades/maxed upgrades

What I'm basically after is trying to understand - what type of 0.0 station will it make sense to refine in after this patch - and how worth it is to upgrade various stations.

If someone can break this down for me, I'd really appreciate it - because at this point I'm still very confused.

Also, do people agree in general that it seems like it'll be better for 0.0 miners to sell compressed ore in Jita vs straight minerals? If so, my original question is intended to figure out the best place to build mineral intensive projects.

Thanks!


Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1612 - 2014-03-28 01:16:36 UTC
CRNA wrote:
Can someone help me out with one thing here please (either through PM or post)?

I'm trying to see how this will affect 0.0 miners in a simplified version. It sounds like they've increased mineral/topes composition of ore/ice to balance the lost minerals. I'm trying to figure where it will make sense to refine now - and if alliances need to upgrade refineries more so than they have now.

Assuming max skills and implants (which I have) - can someone break down how many minerals you'll get in comparison to now? Before you jump and say it was already done, what I'm confused about is the fully upgraded Minmatar outpost, as it sounds like you'll get extra minerals/topes refining in one of those vs other tiers of Minmatar upgrades, and compared to other 0.0 stations with no upgrades/maxed upgrades

What I'm basically after is trying to understand - what type of 0.0 station will it make sense to refine in after this patch - and how worth it is to upgrade various stations.

If someone can break this down for me, I'd really appreciate it - because at this point I'm still very confused.

Also, do people agree in general that it seems like it'll be better for 0.0 miners to sell compressed ore in Jita vs straight minerals? If so, my original question is intended to figure out the best place to build mineral intensive projects.

Thanks!




It s late so my numbers r gonna be approximate

High sec:
In station u r gonna need max skills ( lvl 5 in the two refining plus lvl 5 in the ore specific skill) plus the best refining implant +4%
U ll get 72.4% which is the current 100%
In other words if u get all max skills plus implant u r ore refining will not be affected by the patch.

However, other ppl will be able to get more minerals refined than u
Still in high sec:
In a POS ppl can refine at a 75.6% with no skills or implants (having skills won't change the yield)

Low sec:
In POS ppl will refine at 78.1% still with no skills


Null sec:
Here the numbers will vary depending on the upgrade lvl of the player owned station, getting to a max refine yield in a fully upgraded minmatar station with 86.8%
The other racial station will be lower by several percentage point, but they will be better than high sec stations

In short,
If u r a miner ur better off mining in null , and refining ur ore in a minmatar station in null for max yield

If u r a miner not null or not close to a minmatar station, u can use a compressing array in a POS , to compress ur ore and reduce its volume and transport it to a minmatar station in null, for max reigning yield.

U ll have to run the numbers, but even with transport costs the 15% better yield of a null sec minmatar station is worth it.

So find ur self a null corp with minmatar station and who r willing to upgrade it (it ll cost like 60 bil to get the 86.8 refining yield upgrades...)
Jaiken
Prometheus Arms
#1613 - 2014-03-28 03:48:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaiken
If I want to make money as a compressor which I do currently with 425mm railguns it seems like I'm going to be doing alot more hauling. The current system has me hauling minerals that are already relatively small volume. With the new system it looks like the only way to compress is with the unrefined ore which is much bigger. Now the end result is relatively the same volume ie compressed dense veldspar vs 425mm railguns. The problem is that the uncompressed veldspar is twice as bulky as the minerals used to be. This costs me twice as much to compress the same ammount. The actual compression portion will cost nothing which is about what it costs now but the hauling is the thing that I am concerned about.

Is this intended or are you planning a fix for this??

I would say that instead of compressing the ores the rorqual and pos mod should compress minerals. This would make things relatively the same as far as volume goes and would give the added benefit of letting builders order specific minerals that they need instead of getting a bunch of extra mins that they may or may not use.

Compressing is already adding a 5-10% surcharge. Is that price going to rise to 10-20% for compressing ore?

The only other way around this that I see is to make ore about half the volume that it currently is.
Inspiration
#1614 - 2014-03-28 09:21:46 UTC
Arinyes Cantari wrote:
Basically saying, this is just another step in the war against carebears. Plain and simple.

CCP's way of saying, if you want to enjoy anything, get with the program.


It is leveling the player field, it takes unfair advantages away from care bears and give care bears a better positions then say botters. Imagine having both good refine and compression at a NPC station, like now essentially. Bot accounts will be in a NPC corporation and have all the perfect tools to optimize their process. Always beating the actual players while being practically invulnerable economically speaking! Blowing up a few ships does nothing to hurt them.

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1615 - 2014-03-28 09:28:36 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
K first let me address the competitive side of the equation.
A 4% advantage by using POS is enormous, and can't be shrugged aside. Especially, if the POS cost is shared by a corp...
If u use null sec numbers 86.8 to 72.4 then competitivity is really threatened

Now I understand there r the security aspect, fuel, and risk vs reward, but u we're speaking of competitivity and saying 4% is nothing... U know that the margins on most T1 ships is btw 10-20% ?


I think a good solution of compression array is to use the BP model, put the ore in a NPC station and use ur compression array remotely , and recover the compressed ore from the POS... Just an idea...



1. NPC compression is bot heaven!

2. The 4% advantage is not true. With an implant and perfect skills at an NPC station you refine just 2% or something less efficient.

3. For a producer, only titanium and pyrite need a compressed source, the rest of the minerals is easily transportable without and might even come from null because of that. You will not find compressed ABCs on Jita market in volumes!

4. The cost part of titanium and pyrite in an end-product is much less then 100%, lets say 40% for example (it vaties per product and mineral prices after patch). Then your disadvantage vs a pos as a producer is 40% of 2% (assuming you use implant).

Overall not using a POS to refine will hurt the margin but not to a 4%, not by a long shot!

I am serious!

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1616 - 2014-03-28 09:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
Inspiration wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
K first let me address the competitive side of the equation.
A 4% advantage by using POS is enormous, and can't be shrugged aside. Especially, if the POS cost is shared by a corp...
If u use null sec numbers 86.8 to 72.4 then competitivity is really threatened

Now I understand there r the security aspect, fuel, and risk vs reward, but u we're speaking of competitivity and saying 4% is nothing... U know that the margins on most T1 ships is btw 10-20% ?


I think a good solution of compression array is to use the BP model, put the ore in a NPC station and use ur compression array remotely , and recover the compressed ore from the POS... Just an idea...



1. NPC compression is bot heaven!

2. The 4% advantage is not true. With an implant and perfect skills at an NPC station you refine just 2% or something less efficient.

3. For a producer, only titanium and pyrite need a compressed source, the rest of the minerals is easily transportable without and might even come from null because of that. You will not find compressed ABCs on Jita market in volumes!

4. The cost part of titanium and pyrite in an end-product is much less then 100%, lets say 40% for example (it vaties per product and mineral prices after patch). Then your disadvantage vs a pos as a producer is 40% of 2% (assuming you use implant).

Overall not using a POS to refine will hurt the margin but not to a 4%, not by a long shot!



I think ur missing something

I m talking refining not compressing
As a high sec miner and producer WITHOUT a POS but with perfect skills and implant the ore u mine will net u ore based on 72.4% at a high sec station
A similar hi sec miner producer with a POS and no perfect skills and NO implant would refine at a 75.3
Math says it s a 2.9%

So it seems we r both wrg
In ur model this guy with a POS is in a corp and he doesn't pay the fuel cost, so right out of the production lines he already have a 2.9 price advantage


Now a null sec miner-producer advantage is 86.8-72.4= 14.4
Is that excessive? Knowing how big the blue doughnut is... Frankly I don't know. I know that null sec production and mining need a helping hand, but is this too much? Let s wait and see

But I feel that the old 100% refine should be attainable without the implant! I've u get 72.4 with max skills and then add the 4% implant. It feels more balanced and fair



When u spoke on veld and pyrite u we're addressing compression, and as I said there is an issue with the ore volume and how many trips one has to take to a POS to compress effectively, u r solution was nice but can't be applied in all cases
I liked the suggestion that mineral can be compressed (tweaking the formula to get the same ratio, taking into consideration the volume reduction of refining) or the remote use of a POS compression array from stations...

Talking about BOTs is useless, high sec say the biggest bots r in null, and vis-versa , we can't prove who is right...
Darkblad
Doomheim
#1617 - 2014-03-28 09:57:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Darkblad
CRNA wrote:
Assuming max skills and implants (which I have) - can someone break down how many minerals you'll get in comparison to now? Before you jump and say it was already done, what I'm confused about is the fully upgraded Minmatar outpost, as it sounds like you'll get extra minerals/topes refining in one of those vs other tiers of Minmatar upgrades, and compared to other 0.0 stations with no upgrades/maxed upgrades
Copy or download this Google Sheet and set station base, skill levels and implants. The numbers are the percentages compared to those we currently gain @ 100 % yield. A fully Mimitar Outpost will yield roughly 20 % more than we currently get.
Refinining Array yields are the percentages that CCP Ytterbium noted in this thread.

Edit: Please note that the new mineral numbers are calculated using x 1 / 0,724 (as per the blog) not x 1,381 (the 38.1 % approximation). This will in some cases result in higher mineral quantities for ores that contain high numbers of a mineral, like Spodumain will shift from 39220.4 rounded up to 39221 to 39226.5193370166 rounded up to 39227 units of Tritanium.
Low mineral quantities (like Nocxium from Jaspet and Hemorphite) also result in higher percentages as rounding them up has more impact, no matter which multiplier you use to calculate the new quantities.

NPEISDRIP

Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1618 - 2014-03-28 13:12:13 UTC
Regarding changes to refining, one thing seems to be missing from the equations.
To get maximum refine now you need to have, refining 5, refining efficiency 5 and XX standings with the Npc Corp whose station equipment you are using.

Post summer it becomes;

StationBase 50%
Reprocessing 5
Reprocessing Efficiency 5
Ore Processing 5
Implant RX-801/2/4 4%

Corp standings ? --- missing link or just no longer relevant ?
Net Yield 72.36%

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1619 - 2014-03-28 13:20:55 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Regarding changes to refining, one thing seems to be missing from the equations.
To get maximum refine now you need to have, refining 5, refining efficiency 5 and XX standings with the Npc Corp whose station equipment you are using.

Post summer it becomes;

StationBase 50%
Reprocessing 5
Reprocessing Efficiency 5
Ore Processing 5
Implant RX-801/2/4 4%

Corp standings ? --- missing link or just no longer relevant ?
Net Yield 72.36%


According to CCP the standing required is still 6.67, if I remember correctly
Weaselior
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#1620 - 2014-03-28 13:39:09 UTC
Inspiration wrote:

1. NPC compression is bot heaven!

yeah bots will never be able to outcompete human beings in the complex task of warping a freighter to a pos a bazillion times

Head of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal Pubbie Management and Exploitation Division.