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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

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Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1461 - 2014-03-23 22:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!

A new player can get into a mining barge in 8 days though, join a player corp, and refine at the same rate as the vet without depending on anyone else in the corp to do it for them.

Instead it should be a new player gets into a mining barge in 8 days, joins a player corp, and learns to count on other players to help him out along the way.

The new way it works is broken, it works this way now even with older players refining for newer players. The new PoS mod will break that.


Do you know what you are emotionally asking for?

Suppose your wish comes true. Then you are suddenly required to train all to level 5 to get the max. Where you now likely have nothing trained past level 4. Do not shoot yourself in the foot, just because you feel sorry for your existing now seemingly 'unused' SP. Put away the emotion of loss and start being rational.

And again, only one character in a corporation needs really those skills, do you think new players refine their own ore? You just make thinks more complicated then they need to be and force everyone that want to use that POS structure to train even more then they have now. It is not helping the new guy and not helping the old guy...it is not helping anyone!

I am that player that needs those skills. Its 156 days more training. 5.5 million skill points was all you needed in refining for perfect refine. Now its 15 million. A fresh off trial character can refine better than I can at a PoS when I'm in high sec using my skills at a station. Thats not right. The current model does not encourage anyone to train for the skills. No one will need that one character in high sec. Also what they seem to be going for is only the most dedicated will get the best refine rate. The PoS module undermines it.

Once I put the 156 days more time into refining a trial character should NEVER be able to beat a refine rate of a dedicated refiner anywhere in all of eve in any circumstance. Never. Ever. Period. Its not Eve like.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1462 - 2014-03-23 22:42:41 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!

A new player can get into a mining barge in 8 days though, join a player corp, and refine at the same rate as the vet without depending on anyone else in the corp to do it for them.

Instead it should be a new player gets into a mining barge in 8 days, joins a player corp, and learns to count on other players to help him out along the way.

The new way it works is broken, it works this way now even with older players refining for newer players. The new PoS mod will break that.


Do you know what you are emotionally asking for?

Suppose your wish comes true. Then you are suddenly required to train all to level 5 to get the max. Where you now likely have nothing trained past level 4. Do not shoot yourself in the foot, just because you feel sorry for your existing now seemingly 'unused' SP. Put away the emotion of loss and start being rational.

And again, only one character in a corporation needs really those skills, do you think new players refine their own ore? You just make thinks more complicated then they need to be and force everyone that want to use that POS structure to train even more then they have now. It is not helping the new guy and not helping the old guy...it is not helping anyone!


i agree with you that this revamp is not helping new guy, but it really simplifies thing to old one.

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Inspiration
#1463 - 2014-03-23 22:48:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Emuar wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!


he said obvious thing and still you refusing accept it - i create corporation, online pos, accept alt and i don't need train any skills with that alt, ill get better results than player with skills without pos.


I got the point, but you both missed it. Your reasoning is pilot vs pilot as if corporation doesn't even matter! How obvious it might seem to you, it is still wrong to look at it that way.Look at it on the corp level.

Requiring max skills to get max result from a POS (corporation) structure means the transition to this new system will be all the harder as few can get the yields they are used to. You also forget that POS structures are vulnerable to PVP, require faction standing, and fuel.

Just like now a well trained toon will do the refining for his corp buddies, so will the POS after the change. The difference is you do not have to wait for the other guy to be around. The effort has been moved upfront..getting the POS there and fueling it. Also note that the POS is really vulnerable if you let new players join the same corporation. The crop faction standings matter and they will get dragged down to the average!

The comparison you make is simply a false one!

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1464 - 2014-03-23 22:54:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
Inspiration wrote:
Emuar wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!


he said obvious thing and still you refusing accept it - i create corporation, online pos, accept alt and i don't need train any skills with that alt, ill get better results than player with skills without pos.


I got the point, but you both missed it. Your reasoning is pilot vs pilot as if corporation doesn't even matter! How obvious it might seem to you, it is still wrong to look at it that way.Look at it on the corp level.

Requiring max skills to get max result from a POS (corporation) structure means the transition to this new system will be all the harder as few can get the yields they are used to. You also forget that POS structures are vulnerable to PVP, require faction standing, and fuel.

Just like now a well trained toon will do the refining for his corp buddies, so will the POS do it for them after the change. The difference is you do not have to wait for the other guy to be around.

Thats the problem, the PoS module should not replace the player. The player is eve. The player took the year to train the skills. People should depend on players, not a module. It has always worked this way. This changes it to a direction where structures replace people, lets not let the machines take over anything that requires almost a year of training for. Wait on the player, he'll be on, take your ore, use the module, then your own your way. This is how it works now, and its a good thing to have to count on others in Eve or any multiplier game for that matter.


There is no effort to get a PoS. Its easy. You can put one up in a couple of hours. 100 million and you have the faction rep. I guarentee it takes less than a year of hard core nothing else but refining skill training. And thats PER CHARACTER that would use such a module.
Inspiration
#1465 - 2014-03-23 22:58:12 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I am that player that needs those skills. Its 156 days more training. 5.5 million skill points was all you needed in refining for perfect refine. Now its 15 million. A fresh off trial character can refine better than I can at a PoS when I'm in high sec using my skills at a station. Thats not right. The current model does not encourage anyone to train for the skills. No one will need that one character in high sec. Also what they seem to be going for is only the most dedicated will get the best refine rate. The PoS module undermines it.

Once I put the 156 days more time into refining a trial character should NEVER be able to beat a refine rate of a dedicated refiner anywhere in all of eve in any circumstance. Never. Ever. Period. Its not Eve like.


I disagree strongly. See it as new technology...more user friendly, but unsafe to use in NPC stations.

Done, end of discussion...

The rest is plain whining as no one forces you to not use POS (if a newbie can, so can you). You are just trying to remove yourself from player interaction and then find it unreasonably that those who do not, get better results. The SP and new player thing is just an misdirection, an excuse if you will.

I am not going waste more time on you...everyone can see clearly now where you are coming from and what your trying to do!

I am serious!

Inspiration
#1466 - 2014-03-23 23:00:38 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Emuar wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!


he said obvious thing and still you refusing accept it - i create corporation, online pos, accept alt and i don't need train any skills with that alt, ill get better results than player with skills without pos.


I got the point, but you both missed it. Your reasoning is pilot vs pilot as if corporation doesn't even matter! How obvious it might seem to you, it is still wrong to look at it that way.Look at it on the corp level.

Requiring max skills to get max result from a POS (corporation) structure means the transition to this new system will be all the harder as few can get the yields they are used to. You also forget that POS structures are vulnerable to PVP, require faction standing, and fuel.

Just like now a well trained toon will do the refining for his corp buddies, so will the POS do it for them after the change. The difference is you do not have to wait for the other guy to be around.

Thats the problem, the PoS module should not replace the player. The player is eve. The player took the year to train the skills. People should depend on players, not a module. It has always worked this way. This changes it to a direction where structures replace people, lets not let the machines take over anything that requires almost a year of training for. Wait on the player, he'll be on, take your ore, use the module, then your own your way. This is how it works now, and its a good thing to have to count on others in Eve or any multiplier game for that matter.


There is no effort to get a PoS. Its easy. You can put one up in a couple of hours. 100 million and you have the faction rep. I guarentee it takes less than a year of hard core nothing else but refining skill training. And thats PER CHARACTER that would use such a module.


You are so twisting the meaning of my words, you avoid PVP risk at any cost! Then come from high ground that this is a multi-player game etc. FAIL!

I am serious!

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1467 - 2014-03-23 23:07:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I am that player that needs those skills. Its 156 days more training. 5.5 million skill points was all you needed in refining for perfect refine. Now its 15 million. A fresh off trial character can refine better than I can at a PoS when I'm in high sec using my skills at a station. Thats not right. The current model does not encourage anyone to train for the skills. No one will need that one character in high sec. Also what they seem to be going for is only the most dedicated will get the best refine rate. The PoS module undermines it.

Once I put the 156 days more time into refining a trial character should NEVER be able to beat a refine rate of a dedicated refiner anywhere in all of eve in any circumstance. Never. Ever. Period. Its not Eve like.


I disagree strongly. See it as new technology...more user friendly, but unsafe to use in NPC stations.

Done, end of discussion...

The rest is plain whining as no one forces you to not use POS (if a newbie can, so can you). You are just trying to remove yourself from player interaction and then find it unreasonably that those who do not, get better results. The SP and new player thing is just an misdirection, an excuse if you will.

I am not going waste more time on you...everyone can see clearly now where you are coming from and what your trying to do!


I actually like the PoS Module, but the fact it ignores player skills is what I have the problem with. Skills matter because the player maters. The module should not replace a year of player skillpoints to specialize because its convenient for you and everyone else. You should still need the player who has the skills to actually be qualified to use such a module. Its not hard to trade your ore off to that member in the corp to refine it for you.

I also live in null sec. To say I avoid pvp risk is laughable.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1468 - 2014-03-23 23:13:50 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Emuar wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!


he said obvious thing and still you refusing accept it - i create corporation, online pos, accept alt and i don't need train any skills with that alt, ill get better results than player with skills without pos.


I got the point, but you both missed it. Your reasoning is pilot vs pilot as if corporation doesn't even matter! How obvious it might seem to you, it is still wrong to look at it that way.Look at it on the corp level.

Requiring max skills to get max result from a POS (corporation) structure means the transition to this new system will be all the harder as few can get the yields they are used to. You also forget that POS structures are vulnerable to PVP, require faction standing, and fuel.

Just like now a well trained toon will do the refining for his corp buddies, so will the POS do it for them after the change. The difference is you do not have to wait for the other guy to be around.


so we had system where our refining skills where useful (so those who had skills was needed, only thing that it was not needed to train all skills to lvl5 and implant was useful only to low skill players), but we need redo that system because we trying to make skills "matter" so we making new system where we nerfing npc station refining we buffing sov outpost refining and adding better pos refining which eliminates everything about "skills must be useful"

and only sov outpost will be the best place where your skills still "matter"



The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1469 - 2014-03-23 23:17:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
Inspiration wrote:


You are so twisting the meaning of my words, you avoid PVP risk at any cost! Then come from high ground that this is a multi-player game etc. FAIL!


first, i don't think u need to get personal or emotional about this, we r discussing in a rational way. if you find that u don't want to continue feel free, and thank you for your input.

CCP stated that
"Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since it’s possible to get to the cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity."

"Our design philosophy on specialization in EVE suggests that it should take more time (or resources) to dedicate yourself to one specific field."

So having a high-sec POS with a refining ability that is better by 4% than a player who want to specialize in that area is against the philosophy of CCP changes!

What i am suggesting is keep the POS array better than a station (taking into consideration all what u said about danger and PVP -even though it doesn't apply a lot in high sec-) but allow a skilled char to have a better ield than an unskilled one.

additionally, talking about corps, what is the incentive to recruit skilled refiners when any fresh alt can do a better job (plz remember i m talking about high-sec)
Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
Gooseflock Featheration
#1470 - 2014-03-23 23:19:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
Emuar wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Emuar wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
I think the point is being missed here. A brand new player fresh off trial can refine at a PoS at the same rate as a character with 15 million skill points in reporsesing skills doing the same thing.

This is not the precedent for the game I wish to see it take.

There are also no skill reqs to compress individual ore, meaning anyone can do it!
Currenlty you need atleast 5.5 million skill points in refining to compress ore.
No specialization or industry focus needed. This is not how Eve has worked in the past, and it should never work this way in the future.


* A new player cannot online POS due to required faction standings
* A new player cannot afford his own corp
* Mining is definitely not a single character endeavor

Do not reason from the comparison of a single character to another single character. That just doesn't make sense on this subject. The game isn't played that way. And the extra SP still gives an advantage in that you can refine in a station.

The now 'unused' SP is no more 'unused' then a weapon system you trained for, but has become no longer your favorite or the best. Get over it, its nothing special, really!


he said obvious thing and still you refusing accept it - i create corporation, online pos, accept alt and i don't need train any skills with that alt, ill get better results than player with skills without pos.


I got the point, but you both missed it. Your reasoning is pilot vs pilot as if corporation doesn't even matter! How obvious it might seem to you, it is still wrong to look at it that way.Look at it on the corp level.

Requiring max skills to get max result from a POS (corporation) structure means the transition to this new system will be all the harder as few can get the yields they are used to. You also forget that POS structures are vulnerable to PVP, require faction standing, and fuel.

Just like now a well trained toon will do the refining for his corp buddies, so will the POS do it for them after the change. The difference is you do not have to wait for the other guy to be around.


so we had system where our refining skills where useful (so those who had skills was needed, only thing that it was not needed to train all skills to lvl5 and implant was useful only to low skill players), but we need redo that system because we trying to make skills "matter" so we making new system where we nerfing npc station refining we buffing sov outpost refining and adding better pos refining which eliminates everything about "skills must be useful"

and only sov outpost will be the best place where your skills still "matter"




Pretty much you nailed it. Players need to mater, the PoS module, which is the equivalent of a eve MACHINE, undermines that by not taking Player skills into account. This makes the PERSON playing eve who put a year into refining specialization not matter. People and there skill choices in eve need to matter.

Don't let the machines take over eve and player skill. That's not a direction the game should go.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1471 - 2014-03-23 23:36:58 UTC
as i understand CCP has problem with pos code but still pushing these changes, that's really nice for wh dwellers though.

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....
Trit
Constructive Influence
Brothers of Tangra
#1472 - 2014-03-24 00:42:03 UTC
tldr:

Is not broke so we gonna break it so that we can fix it.

Shine on Crazy Nubbins
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1473 - 2014-03-24 01:54:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Inspiration wrote:

Never did I claim that mining in null will now suddenly blossom, i don't think it will (no change there). But you are being overly negative about the new layers of specialization and even seem to add mutual exclusive processing paths to make the list longer.

The point is, large producers will already have good standings for their faction and they will be the ones to put up raw ore buy orders. They can offer a better price then compression specialist middleman, meaning the chain with losses is not as long as you claim. Only null bear alts can undercut big producer prices. But economically hoarding minerals in null has its limit, and it is impractical to bring minerals back to high sec after that. There exists no mineral compression anymore.

I've read over this all again when it isn't 3am and i haven't slept for 2.5 days. I never meant to imply it was you stating the changes in nul. If you read the blog and don't pay too much attention to the finer details, as I did originally. It is worded so well by the Dev it seems nulsec indy could be getting a BOON. In fact, unless NULBLOCK alliances are prepared to invest hundreds of billions into station upgrades, there will be little to no change at all.

The mineral compression and refining change is being implemented for 2 reasons.
1/ Scrap metal reprocessing is getting a 50% nerf so CCP can remove "Extra Materials" introduced during 'Ship Balancing".
2/ So super, capital builders and the few producers in nul can still get their ore in much the same manner they do now once reprocessing 425mm rails is no longer viable.
A side effect could be, current nul miners may be able to get the ore to market a little easier.


Quote:
What could happen is that null bears buy up ore, compress it, then ship it and produce stuff in null. There is a cap on how much they can produce per station in the form of manufacturing slots. Then they can bring back the end-products to high sec for sale. The price of exploitation of the better refining comes with several costs...compression, shipping, loss of available manufacturing capacity and shipping again. The last shipping part is next to free as it can be done in the same ships that pick up the compressed ore in the first place. Still there is time invested there and competitive priced modules is not bad for high sec i would say.

*This change was actually well planned to fit the objectives I listed above with minimal fallout. The 20% refining loss in empire space is pretty much covered by the extra materials contained in each rock.
*It is not viable to haul compressed ore to nul - refine - haul back to empire to sell. Fuel costs of the multiple jump freighter trips needed to move such large volumes of minerals would kill any potential profit.
*For those wishing to increase nulsec production by moving compressed ores from empire to nul and build for resale in empire. It all relies on whether the station they are using is fully upgraded as to whether they make a profit or not, a 50+ bil investment to upgrade the station may see that plan fail before it gets started.

Quote:
What we will see is likely these chains:

1. Miner does no compression -> Sells to nearby producer who does compression if hauling time makes that worth doing.

Short chain, least amount of losses, both parties benefit.


2. Miner does compression and hauls to hub -> Sells to null bears that ship it to take advantage in their outposts.

Compressed ore is likely to be available in hubs in huge amounts for the same reasons minerals are found there.
For the miner that always sold minerals in Jita these steps are easier then before, no more mineral balancing. Less volume to ship. The only downside...need of a pos, where before compression was done in stations. Upside, no need for manufacturing skills, nor station standings other then the point of sale (= more mobility)


As for the Rorqual, i agree it is an odd ship with ill defined use. Compression is certainly not its number one selling point anymore. As for clone bays, well, wouldn't a POS structure be more logical there too? Regardless of how changes will be implemented, needing Industrial "Siege" to be of any use is a big downside in my opinion. You can get close to the same with an Orca deploying a temporary Pos to do compression. A pos that is needed anyway to stay safe.

I've been buying ore on buy orders, refining and selling minerals for about 9 months now. Just did the figures and using my Rorqual pilot, who would need to get the reprocessing implant and somehow get standings with an npc corp, all highsec minerals would need to increase in price by around 3% for me to bother continuing.

I wonder how many "producers" have spent or will spend, the 100+ days to skill up for just highsec ore compression / refining. To date the only reason those skills were required was to compress in a Rorqual, they will now be required for reprocessing (as it is being called). Skills along with a +4 implant, which is likely to run for between 1 and 4 bil, turns what was easily done by all in a station into a large investment in time training + isk and will be just as easily achieved by a pos module with no skills required.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Bhock
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1474 - 2014-03-24 02:44:30 UTC
I am going to summarize the issue for those that obviously fail to understand it.

FACTS:
  1. I have 5.5M SP invested currently in Refining Skills.
  2. I have a PoS, so I can install that Refining Unit


RESULT:
  1. My 5.5M SP invested before irrelevant, thanks to a cheap structure, as it refines much better than I do
  2. To get ANY benefit from my skills invested, I need to buy a 180M ISK implant (+4%) and 5M+ SP to finally get better refining skills
  3. CCP is not promoting Refining Skills if they are irrelevant before you invest 10M+ SP


There is no skill that requires 10M+ SP before providing the first slight benefit.

SO:
  • Either CCP refunds the skills (puts them to 0, so anyone still wanting them can put back the SP without losing the Skill Book, but that's going against their statement about making Refining Skills more prevalent
  • Either CCP nerfs/cancels that Skill Free structure and it's against their statement about players being more important than items
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1475 - 2014-03-24 02:54:47 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I wonder how many "producers" have spent or will spend, the 100+ days to skill up for just highsec ore compression / refining. To date the only reason those skills were required was to compress in a Rorqual, they will now be required for reprocessing (as it is being called). Skills along with a +4 implant, which is likely to run for between 1 and 4 bil, turns what was easily done by all in a station into a large investment in time training + isk and will be just as easily achieved by a pos module with no skills required.

This is not strictly true. Currently, if you wish to refine in nullsec, you have to have all the requisite ore/ice/scrap skills to four, a +2% implant, and you have to have a Tier 1 minmatar station, upgraded for refineries. In order to get the maximum refines after the proposed change, you still have to train all the skills to 5 and the +4% implant.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#1476 - 2014-03-24 02:58:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Querns wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I wonder how many "producers" have spent or will spend, the 100+ days to skill up for just highsec ore compression / refining. To date the only reason those skills were required was to compress in a Rorqual, they will now be required for reprocessing (as it is being called). Skills along with a +4 implant, which is likely to run for between 1 and 4 bil, turns what was easily done by all in a station into a large investment in time training + isk and will be just as easily achieved by a pos module with no skills required.

This is not strictly true. Currently, if you wish to refine in nullsec, you have to have all the requisite ore/ice/scrap skills to four, a +2% implant, and you have to have a Tier 1 minmatar station, upgraded for refineries. In order to get the maximum refines after the proposed change, you still have to train all the skills to 5 and the +4% implant.



And if the +4 implant costs more than 300 million, I'd be /really/ surprised.

It's around 79000 LP and 40 million isk, from a large number of LP stores.

at 3000 isk per lp (which is high) that comes out at around 280 million isk.


If you have the standings for them, that's on the order of 20 odd L4 mining missions, which hardly require high standings.

1000 isk per LP is pretty normal, which would drop the price to 120 million or so.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1477 - 2014-03-24 04:32:27 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
How do you figure it will fall, are Goons going to upgrade all their refining stations for free? Are renters going to have their stations upgraded for free??
Is the ore and minerals going to be hauled for free?

Yes the Trit has changed hands many times 'and' each time it changes hands someone has to make a profit.


What makes you think we will be charging tax to our members? We like the idea of cheaper ships.

As for the price of trit, I dont think it will change much but if it does it will be down as the supply will be up thanks to low sec POS.
Ok so this works by your math.. At 50 bil a hit to upgrade stations, how many battleships do you need to build 20% cheaper to recoup the investment. Because your not getting cheaper ships until the upgrades are paid for.
I know goons have too much isk and waste a lot but 50bil?? That's close to paying for the next titan.

Seriously if you expect goon market wh*res to sell 20% cheaper than the next guy, I think your in for a nasty shock..



You havent seen our SRP bill this week.

60 bil investment is nothing when you look at the long term savings.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Curzad Ohmsford
#1478 - 2014-03-24 05:24:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Curzad Ohmsford
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Also, we do know the Rorqual needs more love to be a more viable ship, and that is being looked into, but chances are this won’t make it in EVE’s summer expansion.


I've read and re-read this post. Letting all of this information soak in. I've also read about four pages of replies, before I finally skipped to the end. I apologize if this has been suggested before.

The Rorqual needs lots of love, this I do agree too. However allowing players to anchor a pos module to compress ore will do the exact opposite. The easy answer to is make the Compression Array anchor-able only in highsec (>0.4). This way the Rorqual gets much needed love as you will want to compress your ore and ice before you refine it. This of course does not address all the Rorqual issues, but is a good start.

As for the rest. I am glade you are addressing a much needed aspect of the game. I don't agree with some of the changes and I am happy enough with others, but that I suppose is to be expected. Good work on fixing something that while was not technically broken, but realistically it was actually broken. Recycling anything never yields 100% in real life, and with so much of this game patterned after real life physics this needed to be addressed. Now as for those Planck generator containers... I assume the name comes from the Physicist Max Karl Ernst Ludwig Planck... Well that belongs in another post.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1479 - 2014-03-24 06:22:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Querns wrote:
BREAKING EVEN ON POS REFINERIES: THE MATH

The pos refinery offers a 52% base efficiency, which results in a 4% increase in yield over the 50% stations currently present. We'll assume max skills for the refiner, as to keep things as even as possible.

A caldari pos costs 4,224,000 isk to run for a day. Therefore, we can calculate the break-even point for refining at a pos vs. the cost with the following equation:

4224000 = ore value * 0.04

Solving the equation gives us:

105,600,000 = ore value

So, we have to mine that much ore per day to break even. Let's look at ore prices today. Because I'm lazy, I'll use Eve Isk Per Hour to do this. I got http://i.imgur.com/5lehIBl.gif at all fives.

Dividing 105.6m by 16.337m gives us 6.46 manhours of mining scordite per day, just to break even. That's 193.91 manhours a month to cover the cost of your pos.

A single pos refinery can easily keep up with this amount of ore, however, requiring only 110 seconds of processing, so there's that.


Why would you have a single purpose refinery pos, and why would you have a compression pos online all the time ?

A refinery is basically an alternative gridwise to a lab (I have 3 labs on a small, so my setup would be 3 labs, refinery, and refinery offline unless needed, and jobs in the one lab kept appropriately small). edit - does it even matter, I can't remember ?

On a compression pos, I'd just yank the module and offline the pos when I was done, and leave the dead stick, because there isn't any pressing need to mine close to a hub or in a system that is used for research with compressed ore available to the masses (ie viator ships sufficient value, and its damn fast). people don't really dec and kill poses when there are spare moons and the system has spare moons or no station or no offices or whatever.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1480 - 2014-03-24 06:38:07 UTC
For the people angry over the POS, you have to remember that the code behind them is a maelstrom of chaos that CCP only just getting started in sorting out. What has been announced is only the first step in the revamping of them.