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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1481 - 2014-03-24 07:55:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
For the people angry over the POS, you have to remember that the code behind them is a maelstrom of chaos that CCP only just getting started in sorting out. What has been announced is only the first step in the revamping of them.


Then CCP is obviously confusing things here. You don't push more people into a broken system, make them learn and deal with a broken system - only to have them learn and deal with a completely new system just months after that push - and then fix the system. What CCP does with this is again just makeshift and imposed changes for the sake of change and leaving the problems as is. In real life, this approach would end in (potentially complete) failure of the operation or at least in massive disgruntlement of the customers, but in EVE this is just swallowed and everyone moves on...

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Jagoff Haverford
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#1482 - 2014-03-24 10:06:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Jagoff Haverford
I get that the POS code is a mess. Maybe it is such a mess that it's impossible for POS modules (such as the refining and proposed compression modules) to take player skills into account.

And that used to be not a very big deal, because POS refineries were so amazingly awful that only the insane or desperate would use them. It also wasn't such a big deal because perfect refining was so amazingly easy to obtain in high sec that refining skills really didn't matter. Once you hit 100%, you stopped training.

Now, however, the refining skills are going to matter. And the POS refineries are going to get much better; better, in fact, than NPC stations in high sec. Both those changes are golden, and I wouldn't change them for the world.

But if refining skills are going to become relevant, they need to become relevant everywhere. If the POS code is so broken that it can't take player refining skills into account, then that's an enormous problem.

This is precisely why the player base has been screaming for better POS code since I started playing the game, but this isn't the place to make that argument all over again.

Honestly, if the new POS modules are incapable of taking player skill into account at all, then one could make a very strong argument that they simply shouldn't be introduced into the game at all.

If they are going to be introduced, then perhaps they should be unanchorable in high sec. So that wormholers aren't completely screwed over on refining (as they have been for years and years), perhaps they should only be anchorable there.

If anchoring is high sec is non-negotiable, then perhaps only the compression module should find a home there.

If either module is going to be anchorable in high sec, then two things need to happen:

(1) As a temporary step, the modules need to assume that player refining skills are (perhaps far) less than perfect. Someone who genuinely has perfect skills, standings, and implants should be able to do better in a high sec NPC station than they would at a high sec POS refinery. Someone who has the skills to compress in a Rorqual and a set of researched compression BPOs should be able to compress far, far, far better than someone using an high sec compression array.

(2) CCP needs to give us a date certain on which the POS code will be revamped, and can (at the very least) take player skill into account when accessing POS refineries and ore compression arrays.

Fixing the POS code is far more important than just about anything in the game at this moment.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1483 - 2014-03-24 10:15:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Querns wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

I wonder how many "producers" have spent or will spend, the 100+ days to skill up for just highsec ore compression / refining. To date the only reason those skills were required was to compress in a Rorqual, they will now be required for reprocessing (as it is being called). Skills along with a +4 implant, which is likely to run for between 1 and 4 bil, turns what was easily done by all in a station into a large investment in time training + isk and will be just as easily achieved by a pos module with no skills required.

This is not strictly true. Currently, if you wish to refine in nullsec, you have to have all the requisite ore/ice/scrap skills to four, a +2% implant, and you have to have a Tier 1 minmatar station, upgraded for refineries. In order to get the maximum refines after the proposed change, you still have to train all the skills to 5 and the +4% implant.

Had you read my whole post, I was referring to empire space where currently all you need is refining 5, refining efficiency 5 and npc standings.
After the change you will need all skills to 5 and +4 implant = 100+ days of additional training (just for common ores. Include ABC's add 70 more days)

Nulsec really is not worth adding to the equation, except for the few who build out there now. After the change, you too will need to get all your skills to 5, install a +4 implant and 50 bil station upgrade to get any benefit.

This change is entirely about CCP being able to remove "extra materials" post ship balancing.
Compressing is about keeping nulblocks placated because their preferred method of moving minerals (425mm rail gun) will be nerfed. This also removes a genuine income source for newer players by nerfing "loot reprocessing" but that seems to be irrelevant, must keep nulsec power blocks happy.

Anyone who believes nulsec industry is going to easily profit from these changes is possibly deluded and should seek counselling.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1484 - 2014-03-24 10:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Nevyn Auscent
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Ok so this works by your math.. At 50 bil a hit to upgrade stations, how many battleships do you need to build 20% cheaper to recoup the investment. Because your not getting cheaper ships until the upgrades are paid for.
I know goons have too much isk and waste a lot but 50bil?? That's close to paying for the next titan.

Seriously if you expect goon market wh*res to sell 20% cheaper than the next guy, I think your in for a nasty shock..


You fail to understand how the goons will profit by this. They will have the ability to manipulate the market at whim since they can buy up the ore at a higher price than any high sec player can afford to pay or just undercut any high sec player on the mineral market and still make a greater profit since they get far greater refine quantities. In the scale of the EVE economy that 50 billion to upgrade is petty cash, they can make trillions a month on manipulating the market.

This is the thing they have whined about for years (Rightly so to a degree). That high sec had 'better' refine rates than Null Sec did. Yet now they have the better refine rates by a larger ratio ever than high sec had, since they 'could' actually get to perfect refine with a lot of effort, now they try to defend it as fair and even despite complaining that the tiny refine difference before crippled their ability to compete.

So yea.... Really, like I've said, good game goons, you bleated loud & long enough to fool CCP. Enjoy wrecking the game one step at a time. Because that superior refine rate you just got yourself is one more nail in building EVE's coffin. The rest of the updates are good. Refine rates being sensible at a base level in Null is good. A massively superior refine rate after years on your whining over a mere couple of percent and a little extra training however is indefensible.
Inspiration
#1485 - 2014-03-24 10:59:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
I get that the POS code is a mess. Maybe it is such a mess that it's impossible for POS modules (such as the refining and proposed compression modules) to take player skills into account.

And that used to be not a very big deal, because POS refineries were so amazingly awful that only the insane or desperate would use them. It also wasn't such a big deal because perfect refining was so amazingly easy to obtain in high sec that refining skills really didn't matter. Once you hit 100%, you stopped training.

Now, however, the refining skills are going to matter. And the POS refineries are going to get much better; better, in fact, than NPC stations in high sec. Both those changes are golden, and I wouldn't change them for the world.

But if refining skills are going to become relevant, they need to become relevant everywhere. If the POS code is so broken that it can't take player refining skills into account, then that's an enormous problem.

This is precisely why the player base has been screaming for better POS code since I started playing the game, but this isn't the place to make that argument all over again.

Honestly, if the new POS modules are incapable of taking player skill into account at all, then one could make a very strong argument that they simply shouldn't be introduced into the game at all.

If they are going to be introduced, then perhaps they should be unanchorable in high sec. So that wormholers aren't completely screwed over on refining (as they have been for years and years), perhaps they should only be anchorable there.

If anchoring is high sec is non-negotiable, then perhaps only the compression module should find a home there.

If either module is going to be anchorable in high sec, then two things need to happen:

(1) As a temporary step, the modules need to assume that player refining skills are (perhaps far) less than perfect. Someone who genuinely has perfect skills, standings, and implants should be able to do better in a high sec NPC station than they would at a high sec POS refinery. Someone who has the skills to compress in a Rorqual and a set of researched compression BPOs should be able to compress far, far, far better than someone using an high sec compression array.

(2) CCP needs to give us a date certain on which the POS code will be revamped, and can (at the very least) take player skill into account when accessing POS refineries and ore compression arrays.

Fixing the POS code is far more important than just about anything in the game at this moment.


This game is not about training SP and when you got enough...you win. I say it this way because that is the basis for your reasoning, else it just doesn't make sense what you wrote.

Can you at least imagine that a new more efficient (but dangerous) method of refining is introduced, that cannot be done on NPC stations (where your skills will keep having effect). Why would skills have to come into play on a POS using new technology? Because you trained the skills?

Following your line of thought, the introduction of mobile laboratories that even without maxed skills are better then their NPC station equivalents would be terrible and a no go. Oh wait....we already have those! Same goes for POS manufacturing I believe.

You and a few others are so fixated on skills, and the loss of NPC station as the most competitive way of achieving something. Everything...and i mean literally everything gets made up to justify the relevance of skills. Every counter argument gets pissed over, taken out of context and when that fails, it gets repeated over and over in the hope of a better result.

Before the refrigerator, there were people selling blocks of ice. No doubt there was some skill involved, but with the introduction of the refrigerator, they became obsolete and with it their skills. Should they have gotten compensation for that...like a second life? Should the refrigerator be banned by law as it upsets the ice sellers?

Technology advances, other things gets affected and in some instances become obsolete. This isn't a game of chess where the rules never ever change! As long as the new way of doing things isn't outrageous, is believable and achieves desired goals, it is progress! The refining is NOT out of line, it is just slightly better then on NPC stations and you need to deal with some extra hassle to get it done. It is all fair!

I am serious!

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1486 - 2014-03-24 11:21:16 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
It is all fair!

The problem with your argument is in scale. If I have 0 skills, POS research still sucks. I can only run one job, it takes longer, and I can't invent to save myself. Skills matter.
However if I have 0 skills, I can use a POS to refine better than someone with perfect skills in an NPC station.
If Skills matter but you can still get that extra 2-3% from a POS at perfect skills, that's good. The problem is the guy with 0% skills is getting over 50% extra material from using a POS vs using a station. That's not good.

Though I can accept it as a simple coding limitation if that's the truth of the matter as I'd rather POS arrays be relevant. But trying to pretend that it's in a good state is silly.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#1487 - 2014-03-24 11:43:43 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
I get that the POS code is a mess. Maybe it is such a mess that it's impossible for POS modules (such as the refining and proposed compression modules) to take player skills into account.

And that used to be not a very big deal, because POS refineries were so amazingly awful that only the insane or desperate would use them. It also wasn't such a big deal because perfect refining was so amazingly easy to obtain in high sec that refining skills really didn't matter. Once you hit 100%, you stopped training.

Now, however, the refining skills are going to matter. And the POS refineries are going to get much better; better, in fact, than NPC stations in high sec. Both those changes are golden, and I wouldn't change them for the world.

But if refining skills are going to become relevant, they need to become relevant everywhere. If the POS code is so broken that it can't take player refining skills into account, then that's an enormous problem.

This is precisely why the player base has been screaming for better POS code since I started playing the game, but this isn't the place to make that argument all over again.

Honestly, if the new POS modules are incapable of taking player skill into account at all, then one could make a very strong argument that they simply shouldn't be introduced into the game at all.

If they are going to be introduced, then perhaps they should be unanchorable in high sec. So that wormholers aren't completely screwed over on refining (as they have been for years and years), perhaps they should only be anchorable there.

If anchoring is high sec is non-negotiable, then perhaps only the compression module should find a home there.

If either module is going to be anchorable in high sec, then two things need to happen:

(1) As a temporary step, the modules need to assume that player refining skills are (perhaps far) less than perfect. Someone who genuinely has perfect skills, standings, and implants should be able to do better in a high sec NPC station than they would at a high sec POS refinery. Someone who has the skills to compress in a Rorqual and a set of researched compression BPOs should be able to compress far, far, far better than someone using an high sec compression array.

(2) CCP needs to give us a date certain on which the POS code will be revamped, and can (at the very least) take player skill into account when accessing POS refineries and ore compression arrays.

Fixing the POS code is far more important than just about anything in the game at this moment.


This game is not about training SP and when you got enough...you win. I say it this way because that is the basis for your reasoning, else it just doesn't make sense what you wrote.

Can you at least imagine that a new more efficient (but dangerous) method of refining is introduced, that cannot be done on NPC stations (where your skills will keep having effect). Why would skills have to come into play on a POS using new technology? Because you trained the skills?

Everything in Eve is (or at least was) about the best skills. Take a day 1 toon put him into exactly the same rookie ship same fit as a toon with 10 years invested in training skills, the 10 year old toon will win every time. Why? because he has the skills trained up to make the ship more effective than it will be for a 1 day old toon.

Anchoring 1 and a pos module should never negate years of skill training.

Risk VS reward - No problem, restrict the new modules to lowsec, nulsec . Make refining with minimum skills only possible for those willing to add risk to the equation.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.

Malcolm Lionel
Lionel War Industries
#1488 - 2014-03-24 11:59:42 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
Jagoff Haverford wrote:
I get that the POS code is a mess. Maybe it is such a mess that it's impossible for POS modules (such as the refining and proposed compression modules) to take player skills into account.

And that used to be not a very big deal, because POS refineries were so amazingly awful that only the insane or desperate would use them. It also wasn't such a big deal because perfect refining was so amazingly easy to obtain in high sec that refining skills really didn't matter. Once you hit 100%, you stopped training.

Now, however, the refining skills are going to matter. And the POS refineries are going to get much better; better, in fact, than NPC stations in high sec. Both those changes are golden, and I wouldn't change them for the world.

But if refining skills are going to become relevant, they need to become relevant everywhere. If the POS code is so broken that it can't take player refining skills into account, then that's an enormous problem.

This is precisely why the player base has been screaming for better POS code since I started playing the game, but this isn't the place to make that argument all over again.

Honestly, if the new POS modules are incapable of taking player skill into account at all, then one could make a very strong argument that they simply shouldn't be introduced into the game at all.

If they are going to be introduced, then perhaps they should be unanchorable in high sec. So that wormholers aren't completely screwed over on refining (as they have been for years and years), perhaps they should only be anchorable there.

If anchoring is high sec is non-negotiable, then perhaps only the compression module should find a home there.

If either module is going to be anchorable in high sec, then two things need to happen:

(1) As a temporary step, the modules need to assume that player refining skills are (perhaps far) less than perfect. Someone who genuinely has perfect skills, standings, and implants should be able to do better in a high sec NPC station than they would at a high sec POS refinery. Someone who has the skills to compress in a Rorqual and a set of researched compression BPOs should be able to compress far, far, far better than someone using an high sec compression array.

(2) CCP needs to give us a date certain on which the POS code will be revamped, and can (at the very least) take player skill into account when accessing POS refineries and ore compression arrays.

Fixing the POS code is far more important than just about anything in the game at this moment.


This game is not about training SP and when you got enough...you win. I say it this way because that is the basis for your reasoning, else it just doesn't make sense what you wrote.

Can you at least imagine that a new more efficient (but dangerous) method of refining is introduced, that cannot be done on NPC stations (where your skills will keep having effect). Why would skills have to come into play on a POS using new technology? Because you trained the skills?

Everything in Eve is (or at least was) about the best skills. Take a day 1 toon put him into exactly the same rookie ship same fit as a toon with 10 years invested in training skills, the 10 year old toon will win every time. Why? because he has the skills trained up to make the ship more effective than it will be for a 1 day old toon.

Anchoring 1 and a pos module should never negate years of skill training.

Risk VS reward - No problem, restrict the new modules to lowsec, nulsec . Make refining with minimum skills only possible for those willing to add risk to the equation.


Even this breaks a fundamental golden eve has followed for those 10 years that Player skill > convince for everyone it seems in this case. Its a scary track I'd rather not see the game take.
Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1489 - 2014-03-24 12:00:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Emuar
i have just played a bit with spreadsheet and there are results thats just teoretical experiment and if price is right it could work

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....

Darkblad
Doomheim
#1490 - 2014-03-24 12:38:02 UTC
Emuar wrote:
i have just played a bit with spreadsheet and there are results thats just teoretical experiment and if price is right it could work
There's currently a mismatch bewteen mineral quantities of a block compared to those of the ore used to create them. This is due to the new quantities being calculated from current mineral qties of the block, then rounding up that number (once).
Refining the base ore, however, will result in higher mineral quantities, as each single batch gets rounded up. I stated that earlier in this thread. So the numbers possibly will vary a bit (if ccp decides to adjust block mineral qties)
Using quantities of ore batches will add for each single block of basic Pyroxeres:

Tritanium: 489.5
Pyerite: 265.5
Mexallon: 117
Nocxium: 218.5

(pyroxeres units of a block are not a full multiple of 100, which would be a batch)
With the prices in the post you made a block's value changes

50 % base yield station:
2,830,756.16 to 3,001,786.96

V0DF-2:
3,385,959.72 to 3,590,535.23 (given the extra yield of 19.61 %)

Jumping 4.394 blocks will add nearly 150 million more ISK, still before travel cost.

NPEISDRIP

Inspiration
#1491 - 2014-03-24 12:45:01 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
It is all fair!

The problem with your argument is in scale. If I have 0 skills, POS research still sucks. I can only run one job, it takes longer, and I can't invent to save myself. Skills matter.
However if I have 0 skills, I can use a POS to refine better than someone with perfect skills in an NPC station.
If Skills matter but you can still get that extra 2-3% from a POS at perfect skills, that's good. The problem is the guy with 0% skills is getting over 50% extra material from using a POS vs using a station. That's not good.

Though I can accept it as a simple coding limitation if that's the truth of the matter as I'd rather POS arrays be relevant. But trying to pretend that it's in a good state is silly.

So you value skills more then you value alternative methods of achieving goals. A PvP exposed structure by definition fits better in EVE then the safety comfort of having trained more SP. The POS method is more, not less real skill driven. Trained skills is just a matter of being around longer, having paid more etc.

I am serious!

Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1492 - 2014-03-24 12:59:31 UTC
Darkblad wrote:


There's currently a mismatch bewteen mineral quantities of a block compared to those of the ore used to create them. This is due to the new quantities being calculated from current mineral qties of the block, then rounding up that number (once).
Refining the base ore, however, will result in higher mineral quantities, as each single batch gets rounded up. I stated that earlier in this thread. So the numbers possibly will vary a bit (if ccp decides to adjust block mineral qties)
Using quantities of ore batches will add for each single block of basic Pyroxeres:

Tritanium: 489.5
Pyerite: 265.5
Mexallon: 117
Nocxium: 218.5

(pyroxeres units of a block are not a full multiple of 100, which would be a batch)
With the prices in the post you made a block's value changes

50 % base yield station:
2,830,756.16 to 3,001,786.96

V0DF-2:
3,385,959.72 to 3,590,535.23 (given the extra yield of 19.61 %)

Jumping 4.394 blocks will add nearly 150 million more ISK, still before travel cost.


thank you for correcting my mistake

do you believe that my proposed activity is possible in real game after summer?

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....

Darkblad
Doomheim
#1493 - 2014-03-24 13:43:47 UTC
Emuar wrote:
thank you for correcting my mistake

do you believe that my proposed activity is possible in real game after summer?
Oh, the error wasn't on your side. The table in the devblog, showing minerals within each block, is calculated as I described above. The error is either on CCPs side or it's intended to be that way (and not explicitly stated in the blog).

And as long as the fuel cost and time consumption will still be less costly than the approximated plus using this strategy, it should work. But I sure won't risk to assume how the markets develop until the changes are deployed Cool

NPEISDRIP

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1494 - 2014-03-24 14:41:02 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Inspiration wrote:
It is all fair!

The problem with your argument is in scale. If I have 0 skills, POS research still sucks. I can only run one job, it takes longer, and I can't invent to save myself. Skills matter.
However if I have 0 skills, I can use a POS to refine better than someone with perfect skills in an NPC station.
If Skills matter but you can still get that extra 2-3% from a POS at perfect skills, that's good. The problem is the guy with 0% skills is getting over 50% extra material from using a POS vs using a station. That's not good.

Though I can accept it as a simple coding limitation if that's the truth of the matter as I'd rather POS arrays be relevant. But trying to pretend that it's in a good state is silly.

So you value skills more then you value alternative methods of achieving goals. A PvP exposed structure by definition fits better in EVE then the safety comfort of having trained more SP. The POS method is more, not less real skill driven. Trained skills is just a matter of being around longer, having paid more etc.


First, a POS in high sec is not exposed to PVP. U get a 24 hrs period to unanchor it and hide ur stuff...

Second, u r argument might be sound except CCP stated that

"Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since it’s possible to get to the cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity."

"Our design philosophy on specialization in EVE suggests that it should take more time (or resources) to dedicate yourself to one specific field."

So having a high-sec POS with a refining ability that is better by 4% than a player who want to specialize in that area is against the philosophy of CCP changes!

What i am suggesting is keep the POS array better than a station (taking into consideration all what u said about danger and PVP -even though it doesn't apply a lot in high sec-) but allow a skilled char to have a better ield than an unskilled one.

additionally, talking about corps, what is the incentive to recruit skilled refiners when any fresh alt can do a better job (plz remember i m talking about high-sec)

So unless CCP change their philosophy for the change, u r new technology is better argument is moot.
And skills is at the heart of eve whether u find it fair, or best is irrelevant.
Name me one activity that an untrained alt is better than a trained one...

Why start with refining???!?
Nick Bete
Highsec Haulers Inc.
#1495 - 2014-03-24 16:21:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Nick Bete
There's no point in arguing back and forth on any of these "improvements"; CCP's going to introduce them to the game with possibly a small tweak here and there but, there will be no major changes. They've invested too much into what they presented in the blog to do otherwise.

There's been no kind of official response to any of the questions or issues raised in over 60 pages and I'm not holding my breath for any.

CCP's happy, the null dominated CSM signed off on this, the null bloc advocates are happy so, that's all that matters. Who cares if it kills off a source of income for high sec missioners and makes things tougher for rookies? Those chumps don't matter anyway, right?
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1496 - 2014-03-24 16:54:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Querns
Nick Bete wrote:
There's no point in arguing back and forth on any of these "improvements"; CCP's going to introduce them to the game with possibly a small tweak here and there but, there will be no major changes. They've invested too much into what they presented in the blog to do otherwise.

There's been no kind of official response to any of the questions or issues raised in over 60 pages and I'm not holding my breath for any.

CCP's happy, the null dominated CSM signed off on this, the null bloc advocates are happy so, that's all that matters. Who cares if it kills off a source of income for high sec missioners and makes things tougher for rookies? Those chumps don't matter anyway, right?

This is exactly the position of surrender I like to see.

In all seriousness, though, this thread isn't over. There's still some suggestions I'd personally like to see addressed. Namely:

* Is station compression of ore something that CCP is willing to entertain? It would provide some easement for newer miners and solo miners. How do we balance this against the POS module?
* Is increasing the minerals gained from reprocessing "space junk" (read: meta 1-4 modules commonly acquired via missions and scavenging anomaly wrecks) a possibility? It would offset the loss of this money-making scheme, commonly used by new players.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Inspiration
#1497 - 2014-03-24 16:55:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Harah Noud wrote:
First, a POS in high sec is not exposed to PVP. U get a 24 hrs period to unanchor it and hide ur stuff...

Second, u r argument might be sound except CCP stated that

"Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since it’s possible to get to the cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity."

"Our design philosophy on specialization in EVE suggests that it should take more time (or resources) to dedicate yourself to one specific field."

So having a high-sec POS with a refining ability that is better by 4% than a player who want to specialize in that area is against the philosophy of CCP changes!

What i am suggesting is keep the POS array better than a station (taking into consideration all what u said about danger and PVP -even though it doesn't apply a lot in high sec-) but allow a skilled char to have a better ield than an unskilled one.

additionally, talking about corps, what is the incentive to recruit skilled refiners when any fresh alt can do a better job (plz remember i m talking about high-sec)

So unless CCP change their philosophy for the change, u r new technology is better argument is moot.
And skills is at the heart of eve whether u find it fair, or best is irrelevant.
Name me one activity that an untrained alt is better than a trained one...

Why start with refining???!?


If the corp still has enough standing, yes a POS can then be un-anchored and put back after a war. This is a sizable if, given my own past experiences. Assume for now, that it is, it is still exposed to PvP and that in turn does not mean necessarily destroyed in PvP. The threat of it is interrupting enough as you so elegantly demonstrated and the only fallback is the station for which skills are required.

As for refining in POS, the keywords to pay attention to are: "most" and "or resources"

Ignoring half the text is not a sound basis for an argument. And again, stop player to player comparison and look at the corp level. Refining is what you do for the whole corp and it requires only one character to do it.


Harah Noud wrote:
Name me one activity that an untrained alt is better than a trained one...


Now you are just presenting a false case or a trolling (take your pick).

An untrained character (with the help of a POS, the resources of the corp and the skills involved to get there, including gaining standing) , can at most equal a well trained character doing the exact same thing. Your comparing apples to oranges, yet expect apples to apples logic to stick on that.

Still keep on going.....you just exposed your true motives....you want a safe risk less option that can beat a an untrained player that is part of an organisation that did the hard work up front for him.

I am serious!

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#1498 - 2014-03-24 17:40:29 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Rivr Luzade wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
For the people angry over the POS, you have to remember that the code behind them is a maelstrom of chaos that CCP only just getting started in sorting out. What has been announced is only the first step in the revamping of them.


Then CCP is obviously confusing things here. You don't push more people into a broken system, make them learn and deal with a broken system - only to have them learn and deal with a completely new system just months after that push - and then fix the system. What CCP does with this is again just makeshift and imposed changes for the sake of change and leaving the problems as is. In real life, this approach would end in (potentially complete) failure of the operation or at least in massive disgruntlement of the customers, but in EVE this is just swallowed and everyone moves on...


Because we think past week one. I would rather have it this way than leave POS as they currently are and fix them later as it will punish WH dewllers and others who work out of POS.
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1499 - 2014-03-24 17:45:51 UTC
Inspiration wrote:
Harah Noud wrote:
First, a POS in high sec is not exposed to PVP. U get a 24 hrs period to unanchor it and hide ur stuff...

Second, u r argument might be sound except CCP stated that

"Perfect refine reduces the incentive to train most reprocessing skills, since it’s possible to get to the cap without maximizing them all. As an indirect consequence, it discourages players specializing in this particular activity."

"Our design philosophy on specialization in EVE suggests that it should take more time (or resources) to dedicate yourself to one specific field."

So having a high-sec POS with a refining ability that is better by 4% than a player who want to specialize in that area is against the philosophy of CCP changes!

What i am suggesting is keep the POS array better than a station (taking into consideration all what u said about danger and PVP -even though it doesn't apply a lot in high sec-) but allow a skilled char to have a better ield than an unskilled one.

additionally, talking about corps, what is the incentive to recruit skilled refiners when any fresh alt can do a better job (plz remember i m talking about high-sec)

So unless CCP change their philosophy for the change, u r new technology is better argument is moot.
And skills is at the heart of eve whether u find it fair, or best is irrelevant.
Name me one activity that an untrained alt is better than a trained one...

Why start with refining???!?


If the corp still has enough standing, yes a POS can then be un-anchored and put back after a war. This is a sizable if, given my own past experiences. Assume for now, that it is, it is still exposed to PvP and that in turn does not mean necessarily destroyed in PvP. The threat of it is interrupting enough as you so elegantly demonstrated and the only fallback is the station for which skills are required.

As for refining in POS, the keywords to pay attention to are: "most" and "or resources"

Ignoring half the text is not a sound basis for an argument. And again, stop player to player comparison and look at the corp level. Refining is what you do for the whole corp and it requires only one character to do it.


Harah Noud wrote:
Name me one activity that an untrained alt is better than a trained one...


Now you are just presenting a false case or a trolling (take your pick).

An untrained character (with the help of a POS, the resources of the corp and the skills involved to get there, including gaining standing) , can at most equal a well trained character doing the exact same thing. Your comparing apples to oranges, yet expect apples to apples logic to stick on that.

Still keep on going.....you just exposed your true motives....you want a safe risk less option that can beat a an untrained player that is part of an organisation that did the hard work up front for him.


lol, stop with the motive and conspiracy. i m stating what i support up front!!
all what i am saying is an untrained unskilled char shouldn't be able to outperform a skilled char.

now u ignored all what i said about CCP's philosophy for this change. i think this is the key issue here. not what you think, or what you think my true motives are :D

what about the unskilled VS skilled? u didnt specify what was the career the first is better at?

u keep bring corp into this
fine
what about a corp that want to be better at refining what can it do? recruit skilled char? encourage its pilot to skill up? what?
they can just get a POS and that s it. no skill route to progress LIKE WHAT CCP SAID this whole change is about! a point that you keep ignoring!

u speak of safety and corp hard work up front? what hard work ? a POS takes like 30 min to set up? skilling a char takes months . a corp encouraging ppl to skill, and giving them the resources take months

let me recapp:
u just want an easy solution to refining for char and for corps. rendering all skills irrelevant WHICH GOES aginst what CCP said this whole damn change is about!!!
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#1500 - 2014-03-24 18:13:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Soldarius
Wow, the amount of butthurt from all the people that have been using an obviously broken/abused mechanic for years is mind-boggling.

Compression has been a blight on the face of nulsec industry for years. I'm glad to see it getting nerfed.

As for scrapmetal reprocessing, I agree that people looting and reprocessing are going to take a hit. Rather than a blanket nerf, I would like to see meta-level taken into account when reprocessing stuff. 50% for meta 0, and +2.5% more per meta level. This would ensure that player-built meta 0 items still get the nerf bat, while NPC-spawned meta items are still more valuable, without being nerfed into the ground.

Alternatively, why not just keep current reproc rates for meta 1 and higher, while setting meta 0 at 50%?

Miners should be rejoicing. With mineral compression and reprocessing nerfed, there will be more demand for compressed ores, especially Veldspar and Scordite. Nulsec miners (they exist) will now have a good reason to mine Spodumain. This means a net buff for ores and mining. A Compression Array can easily fit on a small POS. If you have a Rorqual, it will still work, plus the benefit of mining links.

Mine ore. Haul ore to POS. Compress ore. Haul compressed ore to Station. Sell compressed ore. How much easier do you want it to be?

Mad that you have to actually train skills to get that awesome refine rate? Boo-hoo. HTFU. Your days of free brauts and beer at the neighbor's BBQ are over.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY