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Dev Blog: Reprocess all the things!

First post First post First post
Author
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1421 - 2014-03-23 21:00:31 UTC
Emuar wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Emuar wrote:


real problems why industry is stagnating in null depends a lot from mentality and leadership, roles management mechanics and so on.


Wrong. The only thing that stops us is the fact that it is cheaper to just import everything from jita.


so evil high sec traders and industrialists use magic to spown all moon mining materials for t2 production and all high end minerals coming from high sec belts and evil risk free wh dwellers helping evil high sec bears to live in prosperity while poor sov null can only have 200% SRP, pay sov bills for hundreds systems (mostly empty). where have you got money to buy everything from jita?


No, he's right. The vast majority of T2 materials pass through Jita, or another highsec market hub.

"Cheaper" is kind of a counterintuitive way to put it, but it's still right. Right now, in 0.0, you can't refine and build in the same station, unlike lowsec and highsec. Thus, JFing or freightering minerals is ALWAYS required. This increases the amount of time building takes, and increases costs in the form of Jump Freighter fuel.

Since this jump freighter work is required in either case, why not just jump in assembled hulls from Empire, where slots are unlimited, refines are equivalent, and the number of people willing to grunt out ships for a pittance of margin far more prevalent? The hulls might cost a little more, but the reduction in effort is immense. We can run our entire Ship Replacement Program with the scant half-dozen number of people in our Finance directorate, rather than requiring an entire industrial wing and the software and logistics needed to manage entire production chains.

Think of highsec as Foxconn, and conquerable nullsec as Apple. It is much more efficient for us to let you guys build everything, and provide the materials you need, rather than try to grunt out our own vertical where costs are higher and labor scarcer.

The proposed changes will help shift that equation back in our favor, by both eliminating time-consuming module compression and by providing a legitimate benefit for production in the far-flung reaches of space.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Malcolm Lionel
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1422 - 2014-03-23 21:05:42 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
Also its not good that the PoS module assumes max skill. Why train 200 days of skills if I can just use a PoS for almost max skill refine? And what about the rorqual? Where is its role now?

Also isn't the now required 200 days training time a bit much? Maybe shrink it down alot?

Right now you have to put about 5.5 million SP in resorce processing, after this it will be almost 20 million. BIG JUMP. More so than tech 2 guns even.


Thats 200 days to refine everything. If you just want trit it will be much much faster.




If your a serious miner your going to want to be able to refine everything at perfect levels to get the most out of your activity. Hence 20 million skill points now required instead of previous 5.5 million for perfect.


Perfect is not good enough,
let me repeat the numbers
perfect skills, all to V, plus a 4% implants
in a high sec station (or even low sec)
gets u only 72.4%

now a char with no skills, no implants can use a POS to get 75% in high sec and 78% in low sec....


yeah that last part makes no sense. Why train the skills if a player can use a PoS that "pretends" you have max skills.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1423 - 2014-03-23 21:07:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Quote:
Right now, in 0.0, you can't refine and build in the same station, unlike lowsec and highsec.


Why is that not changed then? What is the point of this station role splitting anyways? PVP driver, because people need to move stuff around? That's working very well right now, with JF and Rorqus jumping the stuff around. Why not remove this split roles, at least for the industrial stuff.

It still makes sense to have an Administrative Outpost because administration always requires extra space, and the Science Outpost (while absolutely with the docking and so on) makes sense because Research and Invention are, at least in theory, dangerous and can lead to undesirable mishaps. But Refining/Reprocessing and Manufacturing should be available in 1 Station.

Quote:
Since this jump freighter work is required in either case, why not just jump in assembled hulls from Empire, where slots are unlimited, refines are equivalent, and the number of people willing to grunt out ships for a pittance of margin far more prevalent? The hulls might cost a little more, but the reduction in effort is immense. We can run our entire Ship Replacement Program with the scant half-dozen number of people in our Finance directorate, rather than requiring an entire industrial wing and the software and logistics needed to manage entire production chains.

Think of highsec as Foxconn, and conquerable nullsec as Apple. It is much more efficient for us to let you guys build everything, and provide the materials you need, rather than try to grunt out our own vertical where costs are higher and labor scarcer.

The proposed changes will help shift that equation back in our favor, by both eliminating time-consuming module compression and by providing a legitimate benefit for production in the far-flung reaches of space.


So you don't want to be Foxconn but you want to be Foxconn. Do I understand that correctly?

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1424 - 2014-03-23 21:13:33 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
yeah that last part makes no sense. Why train the skills if a player can use a PoS that "pretends" you have max skills.

Don't forget, a POS requires fuel to run. A small caldari pos requires 126.7M isk in fuel to run for a month. That's an awful lot of refining you'd have to do in order to break even on 2% extra efficiency.

Gimme a minute or two to do some math. I can break down just how much.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1425 - 2014-03-23 21:17:26 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Quote:
Right now, in 0.0, you can't refine and build in the same station, unlike lowsec and highsec.


Why is that not changed then? What is the point of this station role splitting anyways? PVP driver, because people need to move stuff around? That's working very well right now, with JF and Rorqus jumping the stuff around. Why not remove this split roles, at least for the industrial stuff.

It still makes sense to have an Administrative Outpost because administration always requires extra space, and the Science Outpost (while absolutely with the docking and so on) makes sense because Research and Invention are, at least in theory, dangerous and can lead to undesirable mishaps. But Refining/Reprocessing and Manufacturing should be available in 1 Station.


Ask CCP. They're the ones who put a tiny number of slots in the Minmatar Outpost, not us. It's just the nature of the game.

Quote:

So you don't want to be Foxconn but you want to be Foxconn. Do I understand that correctly?

It has nothing to do with what we want; merely how things are.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1426 - 2014-03-23 21:25:49 UTC
Quote:
Ask CCP. They're the ones who put a tiny number of slots in the Minmatar Outpost, not us. It's just the nature of the game.


Of course you have not put that on there, but why has that not been considered as improvements for 00 industry? Or has it and CCP rejected for arbitrary reasons? I mean, giving 00 sec better reprocessing rates than other sec levels is all nice and dandy, but 00 still has, as you said, tiny numbers in slots, which hampers serious production ambitions. So stuff is moved to 00, reprocessed, and moved back to Low/High for production. That is ... semi-pointless in my opinion.

Malcanis probably knows more, or is there something in the last CSM meeting minutes about that particular aspect of 00 industry? (more a general inquiry and not focused on you, Querns)

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1427 - 2014-03-23 21:29:13 UTC
BREAKING EVEN ON POS REFINERIES: THE MATH

The pos refinery offers a 52% base efficiency, which results in a 4% increase in yield over the 50% stations currently present. We'll assume max skills for the refiner, as to keep things as even as possible.

A caldari pos costs 4,224,000 isk to run for a day. Therefore, we can calculate the break-even point for refining at a pos vs. the cost with the following equation:

4224000 = ore value * 0.04

Solving the equation gives us:

105,600,000 = ore value

So, we have to mine that much ore per day to break even. Let's look at ore prices today. Because I'm lazy, I'll use Eve Isk Per Hour to do this. I got http://i.imgur.com/5lehIBl.gif at all fives.

Dividing 105.6m by 16.337m gives us 6.46 manhours of mining scordite per day, just to break even. That's 193.91 manhours a month to cover the cost of your pos.

A single pos refinery can easily keep up with this amount of ore, however, requiring only 110 seconds of processing, so there's that.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1428 - 2014-03-23 21:29:57 UTC
Querns wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
yeah that last part makes no sense. Why train the skills if a player can use a PoS that "pretends" you have max skills.

Don't forget, a POS requires fuel to run. A small caldari pos requires 126.7M isk in fuel to run for a month. That's an awful lot of refining you'd have to do in order to break even on 2% extra efficiency.

Gimme a minute or two to do some math. I can break down just how much.





the issue is not with the POS or fuel cost. I agree that POS could offer a more advantageous refining, my issue is with skills and implants not having an effect on a POS refining array...

It doesn't have to be a full spread, similar to in station differences between skilled and unskilled, but a skilled char with implants should have an advantage over an unskilled char... especially in CCP new refining philosophy that wants to underline the importance of refining skills and implants
Malcolm Lionel
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1429 - 2014-03-23 21:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
Querns wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
yeah that last part makes no sense. Why train the skills if a player can use a PoS that "pretends" you have max skills.

Don't forget, a POS requires fuel to run. A small caldari pos requires 126.7M isk in fuel to run for a month. That's an awful lot of refining you'd have to do in order to break even on 2% extra efficiency.

Gimme a minute or two to do some math. I can break down just how much.

126 million in fuel is less than the cost of the 4% refining implant, which is currently going for 250 million.


Not to mention if we count the PLEX worth to train almost a years worth of refining skills to max refining the PoS starts to look like a steal. Infact it would take almost 5 years to break even on that training time to make a the skills for refining better than what you can do by default at a small PoS. Thats just absurd I think.

Time to train refining skills to perfect = Almost a year of lost ability to train other skills.
one year of plex = 7.4 TRILLION isk total opportunity cost to train the skills
one year of pos fuel = 1.5 BILLION isk a year to not have worry about skilling up refining


Break even = 4.9 YEARS for skills to be better than simply paying for the PoS fuel.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1430 - 2014-03-23 21:31:52 UTC
I don't know about you guys, but I routinely fail to do 6.46 manhours of work at my regular job in any given day. I also don't work on the weekends. Massively increasing the number of people using the pos will help, of course, but if you are falling short of that onerous amount of effort, refining at a 50% station will work just fine.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1431 - 2014-03-23 21:34:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Harah Noud
Querns wrote:
BREAKING EVEN ON POS REFINERIES: THE MATH

The pos refinery offers a 52% base efficiency, which results in a 4% increase in yield over the 50% stations currently present. We'll assume max skills for the refiner, as to keep things as even as possible.

A caldari pos costs 4,224,000 isk to run for a day. Therefore, we can calculate the break-even point for refining at a pos vs. the cost with the following equation:

4224000 = ore value * 0.04

Solving the equation gives us:

105,600,000 = ore value

So, we have to mine that much ore per day to break even. Let's look at ore prices today. Because I'm lazy, I'll use Eve Isk Per Hour to do this. I got http://i.imgur.com/5lehIBl.gif at all fives.

Dividing 105.6m by 16.337m gives us 6.46 manhours of mining scordite per day, just to break even. That's 193.91 manhours a month to cover the cost of your pos.

A single pos refinery can easily keep up with this amount of ore, however, requiring only 110 seconds of processing, so there's that.



no need to mine it yourself. buy the ore from the market and refine it. voila you got your fuel covered and then some more. remember you have a 4% advantage over a fully skilled char with a 250 mil implant in his head, just sitting in your POS, and having a 3 or 4 jumps buy order...
Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1432 - 2014-03-23 21:35:26 UTC
Querns wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but I routinely fail to do 6.46 manhours of work at my regular job in any given day. I also don't work on the weekends. Massively increasing the number of people using the pos will help, of course, but if you are falling short of that onerous amount of effort, refining at a 50% station will work just fine.


i dont wanna repeat myself but i answered this point above. just buy the ore and enjoy the +4% spread in refining
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1433 - 2014-03-23 21:35:49 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:

126 million in fuel is less than the cost of the 4% refining implant, which is currently going for 250 million.


Not to mention if we count the PLEX worth to train almost a years worth of refining skills to max refining the PoS starts to look like a steal. Infact it would take almost 5 years to break even on that training time to make a the skills for refining better than what you can do by default at a small PoS. Thats just absurd I think.

one year of plex = 7.4 TRILLION isk
one month of pos fuel = 1.5 billion

Break even = 4.9 YEARS for skills to be better than simply paying for the PoS fuel.

Uh, one year of plex is not 7.4 trillion isk.

Also, you are comparing a one-time cost of an implant to a recurring tower fuel cost.

Also, in order to mine at all, you have to keep your account subscribed, so the PLEX cost of maintaining an account is not exactly a relevant cost to factor in.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Malcolm Lionel
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#1434 - 2014-03-23 21:39:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcolm Lionel
right, but I am saying your better off paying the reoccurring cost for the PoS fuel than bothering to train the skills.


Its cheaper when using the PLEX amount of what your times worth by quite a bit.
Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1435 - 2014-03-23 21:40:03 UTC
Harah Noud wrote:
Querns wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but I routinely fail to do 6.46 manhours of work at my regular job in any given day. I also don't work on the weekends. Massively increasing the number of people using the pos will help, of course, but if you are falling short of that onerous amount of effort, refining at a 50% station will work just fine.


i dont wanna repeat myself but i answered this point above. just buy the ore and enjoy the +4% spread in refining

Yeah, I agree; selling the ore is a much better way to do things. People will access to nullsec refineries and enough wherewithal will put up competitive buys for this ore and use their superior facilities to refine the ore. Both the miner and the refiner win.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Querns
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1436 - 2014-03-23 21:41:31 UTC
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
right, but I am saying your better off paying the reoccurring cost for the PoS fuel than bothering to train the skills.

Honestly, if you're going to go to that trouble, you're ACTUALLY better off compressing the ore in your pos and shipping the compressed ore to Jita, where any number of ravenous refiners will gladly gobble it up.

This post was crafted by the wormhole expert of the Goonswarm Economic Warfare Cabal, the foremost authority on Eve: Online economics and gameplay.

Harah Noud
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1437 - 2014-03-23 21:43:28 UTC
Querns wrote:
Malcolm Lionel wrote:
right, but I am saying your better off paying the reoccurring cost for the PoS fuel than bothering to train the skills.

Honestly, if you're going to go to that trouble, you're ACTUALLY better off compressing the ore in your pos and shipping the compressed ore to Jita, where any number of ravenous refiners will gladly gobble it up.



the issue is that an untrained char should not be able to refine at the same rate as a trained one at a POS
Inspiration
#1438 - 2014-03-23 21:46:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Inspiration
Querns wrote:
I don't know about you guys, but I routinely fail to do 6.46 manhours of work at my regular job in any given day. I also don't work on the weekends. Massively increasing the number of people using the pos will help, of course, but if you are falling short of that onerous amount of effort, refining at a 50% station will work just fine.


A POS doesn't need to be online or even there all of the time. Anchoring and on-lining the POS and/or ORE compressing structure as needed is the way to go for mobile and const conscious mining groups. The online/anchor times are reasonable these days and do not tie you down to one location. You require maybe a few hours of fuel a day and after the mining is done.

Use a dedicated corp with one or two good toons in there that have all around good standing to raise posses in the region your interested in and your golden versus the competition. The 2nd guys is a ORE hauler that can use these structures and is in fleet. Being the hauler just got a tiny bit more interesting :)

I said too much already, before you know it i am optimizing all your EVE endeavors...where is the fun in that? Be creative, be smart about it and adaptive...then you will love this change to get more rich game play!

I am serious!

Emuar
Vak'Atioth War Veterans
#1439 - 2014-03-23 21:46:49 UTC
and noone pointed that you need standing with faction (happy grinding)for pos in high sec or standing with npc corporation everywhere because of tax

The mind is a constant. Unfortunately the number of people increases every year....

Bhock
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#1440 - 2014-03-23 21:48:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Bhock
Harah Noud wrote:
If your a serious miner your going to want to be able to refine everything at perfect levels to get the most out of your activity. Hence 20 million skill points now required instead of previous 5.5 million for perfect.


Perfect is not good enough,
let me repeat the numbers
perfect skills, all to V, plus a 4% implants
in a high sec station (or even low sec)
gets u only 72.4%

now a char with no skills, no implants can use a POS to get 75% in high sec and 78% in low sec....[/quote]
That is what bothers me mostly in this: how can 20 million SP + a 180M ISK implant + the reputation gring (don't forget the 6.92 rep required for taxes) can be less than a cheap PoS module ?

If this goes as is, I want my 6M SP invested to be refunded, as this represents many expensive skills becoming totally useless.

I am okay with Null/Low and PoS having better yield.
I am okay with the 5-10% nerf to highsec miners (mineral prices and everything will go up to compensate).

But not having a newb buying a cheap golden module better than a big chunk of skills and top implants... that is unacceptable !