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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#381 - 2013-10-18 17:17:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:


Really....

Corp A war decs Corp B, and corp B disbands to npc corp(s). Corp A just won. Players being able to drop corp and thus drop the war by joining an NPC corp has been around since before I first started playing on my other (inactive, older and currently characterless) account.



Were it about getting their corp to disband, yes. But it's not. I don't give a hoot about their corp, I want to kill them. Clearly, they don't want to be killed. A mechanism currently exists preventing me from killing them despite declaring war on them.

Why is it the case that a player can make themselves immune to PvP? Why does anyone, not just highsec players, get to say "yes" or "no"? If you get to actually have a say in the matter after I have gone to the lengths necessary to wardec you, that's not a war, that's a tennis match.

Generate killrights on dec dodgers.

I'll let you on a big secret that'll hopefully get rid of that pent up anger you have regarding those evil dodging war targets - When you declare war on a corporation, well, you declare war on a corporation, not the individual people who make up that corporation.

See where I bolded and underlined your misinterpretation of what a war dec is? So you can stop being angry they're dodging the war because they're not, they're leaving the corporation you war decced and becoming members of an npc corporation and as such are no longer valid targets.

Deal with it, its been that way for 10 whole years.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#382 - 2013-10-18 17:21:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Jenn aSide wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

No Im definitely getting under your skin. I can tell by the increasing frequency of your personal attacks against me as a person rather than the topic. But thats cool, Im enjoying this.

Now let's not straw man what I said, I said "without constantly being harassed and killed". A long time ago Zombie corp discovered a way to get into highsec and kill people without Concord intervention. Those involved were banned. Why? Because players in high do have a right to play without being constantly harassed and killed. As stated earlier in this thread Ovuer, the lead developer published a Dev Blog on the incident and stated that "highsec was supposed to be relatively safe". This lends support to my argument that people in high have a right to not be constantly harassed and killed.

It also very strongly negates your opinion that high low null and wormhole I assume you would include need or should have consistent rules. I'll assume that was a "suggestion". Did you manage to look that word up yet? I think your suggestion is nonsensical.


See the bolded part?

rel·a·tive·ly
ˈrelətivlē/
adverb
adverb: relatively

1.
in relation, comparison, or proportion to something else.

The only time a player has a right to not get repeatedly killed is when the killer is doing it specifically to them over and over to cause that single individual grief. There is no general right to safety in high sec.

Yes, high sec rules should be consistent with the underlying rule of EVE online: flying in space is dangerous everywhere. The only suitable exceptions to that are the rule I listed about against intentional targeted individual griefing and in newbie systems/ noob mission arc.

As many do in real life, you imagine a right where no such right exists.

You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#383 - 2013-10-18 17:22:45 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:


Really....

Corp A war decs Corp B, and corp B disbands to npc corp(s). Corp A just won. Players being able to drop corp and thus drop the war by joining an NPC corp has been around since before I first started playing on my other (inactive, older and currently characterless) account.



Were it about getting their corp to disband, yes. But it's not. I don't give a hoot about their corp, I want to kill them. Clearly, they don't want to be killed. A mechanism currently exists preventing me from killing them despite declaring war on them.

Why is it the case that a player can make themselves immune to PvP? Why does anyone, not just highsec players, get to say "yes" or "no"? If you get to actually have a say in the matter after I have gone to the lengths necessary to wardec you, that's not a war, that's a tennis match.

Generate killrights on dec dodgers.

I'll let you on a big secret that'll hopefully get rid of that pent up anger you have regarding those evil dodging war targets - When you declare war on a corporation, well, you declare war on a corporation, not the individual people who make up that corporation.

See where I bolded and underlined your misinterpretation of what a war dec is? So you can stop being angry they're dodging the war because they're not, they're leaving the corporation you war decced and as such are no longer valid targets.

Deal with it, its been that way for 10 whole years.





Were that the case, we would be able to declare war on the NPC corps too, in exchange for loss of standings and docking rights, of course.

Hey, someone should "suggest" that...

And we're back to the beginning.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#384 - 2013-10-18 17:24:21 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Angeal MacNova wrote:


Really....

Corp A war decs Corp B, and corp B disbands to npc corp(s). Corp A just won. Players being able to drop corp and thus drop the war by joining an NPC corp has been around since before I first started playing on my other (inactive, older and currently characterless) account.



Were it about getting their corp to disband, yes. But it's not. I don't give a hoot about their corp, I want to kill them. Clearly, they don't want to be killed. A mechanism currently exists preventing me from killing them despite declaring war on them.

Why is it the case that a player can make themselves immune to PvP? Why does anyone, not just highsec players, get to say "yes" or "no"? If you get to actually have a say in the matter after I have gone to the lengths necessary to wardec you, that's not a war, that's a tennis match.

Generate killrights on dec dodgers.

I'll let you on a big secret that'll hopefully get rid of that pent up anger you have regarding those evil dodging war targets - When you declare war on a corporation, well, you declare war on a corporation, not the individual people who make up that corporation.

See where I bolded and underlined your misinterpretation of what a war dec is? So you can stop being angry they're dodging the war because they're not, they're leaving the corporation you war decced and as such are no longer valid targets.

Deal with it, its been that way for 10 whole years.





Were that the case, we would be able to declare war on the NPC corps too, in exchange for loss of standings and docking rights, of course.

Hey, someone should "suggest" that...

And we're back to the beginning.

If you feel that's something you would like to see in EvE -> F&I Discussion

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#385 - 2013-10-18 17:28:28 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


If you feel that's something you would like to see in EvE -> F&I Discussion


Tut, tut, that seems to have gone right over your head. Care to try again?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#386 - 2013-10-18 17:40:07 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.

no, you only compared selected hours of doing plexes to... you didn't compare them to anything. and gave no proof. and didn't consider any other factors related to income, population, group requirements, risk, investment or expenditure in highsec or null, except to claim that highsec is riskier than null somehow which is false

also noone used those two phrases together so i have no idea why you're going on about english we all learned in highschool
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#387 - 2013-10-18 17:50:22 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:

You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.


That's just denying the truth. If CCP meant high sec to be totally (rather than relatively) safe or to confer some general right to safety, they'd just say "no killing in high sec" and change 2 lines of code to prevent weapons from activating in high sec. The fact that guns work inhigh sec against other players and suicide gankers don't get banned just for a suicide gank means the makers of EVE online want that to be possible.

Universe wide Non-consensual PVE is a major underpinning of design of the game. If you don't like that you should be playing X-Rebirth or Star Trek Online (STO in particular is everything people scream they want in EVE, I hear they don't even have Cynos to begin with, you'll live it).


Quote:

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.


You tried to prove that null was safe, so you single handedly raided an alliances space and killed multiple ships (whereas in empire you would have killed exactly one before dying unless you had a wardec) proving that null space is not only accessible by a solo player, but more dangerous than High Sec.

Then you make a post detailing the riches to be had in space where the residents are off fighting, and the amounts of isk you pull in (becuase of the chance based nature of the PVE) don't really exceed what a steady grinder can get in high sec incursions with even less effort and no alts at all.

It's like we don't even have to try to show you the errors of your thinking, you prove them for us. Now THAT is service.
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#388 - 2013-10-18 17:50:35 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.

no, you only compared selected hours of doing plexes to... you didn't compare them to anything. and gave no proof. and didn't consider any other factors related to income, population, group requirements, risk, investment or expenditure in highsec or null, except to claim that highsec is riskier than null somehow which is false

also noone used those two phrases together so i have no idea why you're going on about english we all learned in highschool

hey guys i did two anoms and got a rare drop. 300mil isk/hr just ranom anoms in nullsec

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#389 - 2013-10-18 17:51:17 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Were it about getting their corp to disband, yes. But it's not. I don't give a hoot about their corp, I want to kill them. Clearly, they don't want to be killed. A mechanism currently exists preventing me from killing them despite declaring war on them.

Why is it the case that a player can make themselves immune to PvP? Why does anyone, not just highsec players, get to say "yes" or "no"? If you get to actually have a say in the matter after I have gone to the lengths necessary to wardec you, that's not a war, that's a tennis match.

Generate killrights on dec dodgers.

.....

Oh, and here we go, I'm a sadist. Last time it was a sociopath. I wonder what I'll be next week, for wanting to shoot spaceships in a game about shooting spaceships. What an awful person I am...


Aw honey, you may not give a hoot about the corp, but the way things work is a wardec is on the corp, not players.
People say "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" while the other side of that same coin is "Don't 'dec what you can't afford to miss" Maybe dec types of corps that don't have histories of dropping out. Some research can go a long way 'shug.

Also, there's plenty more space to shoot spaceships other than hisec. Types like you just seem so itching for pvp, but then only in hisec, and can't stand be told 'no' like you all have some sort of entitlement to it.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#390 - 2013-10-18 17:52:03 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
You'll have to make that argument to the developers not to me. "relatively safe" is in no way similiar to "dangerous everywhere". In fact the two terms together are an oxymoron.... another word you may wish to look up.

Also, if a mod swings past I think this thread has derailed so far from its original purpose that it could be locked. I accomplished my intended goal of showing that null > high in terms of profitability.

no, you only compared selected hours of doing plexes to... you didn't compare them to anything. and gave no proof. and didn't consider any other factors related to income, population, group requirements, risk, investment or expenditure in highsec or null, except to claim that highsec is riskier than null somehow which is false

also noone used those two phrases together so i have no idea why you're going on about english we all learned in highschool


Stop that. Logic and Reason have no place here. GD (and life in general) is only about seeing what we want to see (despite evidence to the contrary)!
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#391 - 2013-10-18 17:59:18 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Were it about getting their corp to disband, yes. But it's not. I don't give a hoot about their corp, I want to kill them. Clearly, they don't want to be killed. A mechanism currently exists preventing me from killing them despite declaring war on them.

Why is it the case that a player can make themselves immune to PvP? Why does anyone, not just highsec players, get to say "yes" or "no"? If you get to actually have a say in the matter after I have gone to the lengths necessary to wardec you, that's not a war, that's a tennis match.

Generate killrights on dec dodgers.

.....

Oh, and here we go, I'm a sadist. Last time it was a sociopath. I wonder what I'll be next week, for wanting to shoot spaceships in a game about shooting spaceships. What an awful person I am...


Aw honey, you may not give a hoot about the corp, but the way things work is a wardec is on the corp, not players.
People say "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" while the other side of that same coin is "Don't 'dec what you can't afford to miss" Maybe dec types of corps that don't have histories of dropping out. Some research can go a long way 'shug.

Also, there's plenty more space to shoot spaceships other than hisec. Types like you just seem so itching for pvp, but then only in hisec, and can't stand be told 'no' like you all have some sort of entitlement to it.

dec gsf and camp jita undock like the cool kids

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#392 - 2013-10-18 18:08:45 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Were it about getting their corp to disband, yes. But it's not. I don't give a hoot about their corp, I want to kill them. Clearly, they don't want to be killed. A mechanism currently exists preventing me from killing them despite declaring war on them.

Why is it the case that a player can make themselves immune to PvP? Why does anyone, not just highsec players, get to say "yes" or "no"? If you get to actually have a say in the matter after I have gone to the lengths necessary to wardec you, that's not a war, that's a tennis match.

Generate killrights on dec dodgers.

.....

Oh, and here we go, I'm a sadist. Last time it was a sociopath. I wonder what I'll be next week, for wanting to shoot spaceships in a game about shooting spaceships. What an awful person I am...


Aw honey, you may not give a hoot about the corp, but the way things work is a wardec is on the corp, not players.
People say "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose" while the other side of that same coin is "Don't 'dec what you can't afford to miss" Maybe dec types of corps that don't have histories of dropping out. Some research can go a long way 'shug.

Also, there's plenty more space to shoot spaceships other than hisec. Types like you just seem so itching for pvp, but then only in hisec, and can't stand be told 'no' like you all have some sort of entitlement to it.


I know that there is PvP elsewhere in highsec, shock and surprise. Does that somehow mean that PvP shouldn't be in highsec?

Because that's what you are implying. Because I can shoot at people elsewhere, I shouldn't be allowed to in highsec. Or did I miss your meaning?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Iudicium Vastus
Doomheim
#393 - 2013-10-18 18:18:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I know that there is PvP elsewhere in highsec, shock and surprise. Does that somehow mean that PvP shouldn't be in highsec?

Because that's what you are implying. Because I can shoot at people elsewhere, I shouldn't be allowed to in highsec. Or did I miss your meaning?


There's totally still ways to go pvp on someone in hisec, you just seem to want it to be just as freely as the other regions, but with concord protection on your part. Feel free to pvp to your heart's content in hisec, I just suggested maybe deccing corps (yes, even in hisec) that don't or at least unlikely to drop or go inactive for the duration so you can actually get your coveted hisec pvp in and don't get mad when your eenie-meenie-miney-mo picked soft targets get out of the war.

[u]Nerf stabs/cloaks in FW?[/u] No, just.. -Fit more points -Fit faction points -Bring a friend or two with points (an alt is fine too)
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#394 - 2013-10-18 18:22:47 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I know that there is PvP elsewhere in highsec, shock and surprise. Does that somehow mean that PvP shouldn't be in highsec?

Because that's what you are implying. Because I can shoot at people elsewhere, I shouldn't be allowed to in highsec. Or did I miss your meaning?


There's totally still ways to go pvp on someone in hisec, you just seem to want it to be just as freely as the other regions, but with concord protection on your part. Feel free to pvp to your heart's content in hisec, I just suggested maybe deccing corps (yes, even in hisec) that don't or at least unlikely to drop or go inactive for the duration so you can actually get your coveted hisec pvp in and don't get mad when your eenie-meenie-miney-mo picked soft targets get out of the war.


I already suicide gank, thanks.

And I notice a distinct lack of answering my question. Why does it matter if I can shoot people somewhere else? Does that in any way mean that people should be able to completely avoid non suicide PvP in highsec?

Oh, by the way, I'd also like to de-incentivize NPC corps(unless, that is, it is changed so that people can wardec them). NPC corps should be for NPCs. So, I'd say that it would not be unfair for them to have a 30% tax rate on all players outside of their trial account period.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#395 - 2013-10-18 18:22:57 UTC
Iudicium Vastus wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:


I know that there is PvP elsewhere in highsec, shock and surprise. Does that somehow mean that PvP shouldn't be in highsec?

Because that's what you are implying. Because I can shoot at people elsewhere, I shouldn't be allowed to in highsec. Or did I miss your meaning?


There's totally still ways to go pvp on someone in hisec, you just seem to want it to be just as freely as the other regions, but with concord protection on your part. Feel free to pvp to your heart's content in hisec, I just suggested maybe deccing corps (yes, even in hisec) that don't or at least unlikely to drop or go inactive for the duration so you can actually get your coveted hisec pvp in and don't get mad when your eenie-meenie-miney-mo picked soft targets get out of the war.

try arguing like an adult, kaaruuis personally has nothing to do with the question of if people should be able to avoid wars as they can
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#396 - 2013-10-18 18:24:28 UTC
ps do as i say not as i do
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#397 - 2013-10-18 18:27:13 UTC
Is mis-spelling my name the sub-theme of this thread, or what?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Benny Ohu
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#398 - 2013-10-18 18:46:50 UTC
that's just how jenn's crew rolls, mate
Murk Paradox
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#399 - 2013-10-18 18:47:14 UTC
cyndrogen wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Dr0000 Maulerant wrote:
Yes. complete safety. Definitely no cloaky t3's to deal with when you have sov!

You can even bring the noctis out, unescorted.

Seriously though, my null adventure involved a tachy oracle and excitement when I got a 5 mil tick. I cant imagine it's a guristas/bloods difference.

You realize that in a combat site you cannot be hot dropped and you also cannot be surprised now that a cloaky must uncloak to use an acceleration gate? You can also drop a couple of cans at the warp in point to decloak any cloaky you miss using the acceleration gate. The majority are multiple gated sites so cloaky must use multiple gates and slow boat to each acceleration gate.

If you have an alt on the entry gate there is 0% chance you'll ever be surprised by a cloaky since you'll see them uncloak. Been out there for a month deep in Goon space and haven't so much as been locked by a Goon. You would have to be blind and completely wasted to get caught in a combat site.



actually not true, you can warp at 2500m, decloaks are 2000m, a good pilot will not trigger a decloak.



Those are my hostile pi tricks you're giving away =(

This post has been signed by Murk Paradox and no other accounts, alternate or otherwise. Any other post claiming to be this holder's is subject to being banned at the discretion of the GM Team as it would violate the TOS in regards to impersonation. Signed, Murk Paradox. In triplicate.
Harry Forever
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#400 - 2013-10-18 19:05:56 UTC
Onictus wrote:
Harry Forever wrote:
that the reason why goons never do PvP, they just grind for ISK, I see that **** each day

thats the reason why i started shooting their loot bombing those gurista wrecks and killing their noctis

I free them from this greed



Hey smart guy

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

You are looking in the wrong place (per usual)


I only count solo kills as kill, so you guys got zero...

I'm still leading all of you newbs, if you guys like usual kill 1 frig with 100 ships, then each of you got 0,01 kills... you need to do that a long time to even get close to me

what you are doing is not pvp, its pathetic

Harry Forever vs. Goonswarm