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High Sec Income vs Null Sec Income - the reality

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Author
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#341 - 2013-10-18 06:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
Dracvlad wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


First of all I do not thik hisec is safe, in poorly fitted Retrievers, Mackinaws, any Hulk or Covertor, bling fitted Incusrion or mission ships, freighters carrying over 1bn in value, any jump frieghter, pods, and of course transport ships on the undock are all very vulnerable. Safe is relative in that CONCORD punish people, not protect people.

In terms of CONCORD, I don't like it to be honest, in a thread about POCO's I was annoyed to see that you will be concorded for shooting a player run POCO in hisec when the loigical way to do it was to make them give you an individual suspect flag and that war decs only take away the suspect flag. Crossing the Rubicon, that was more like paddling in the shallows....


The examples you gave? They all involve players doing something monumentally stupid in order to die. As opposed to every other area of space, where someone doesn't have to make a bonehead mistake to die.

That's why I say that highsec's risk attribute is skewed. Because those people, the ones making bonehead mistakes? In the event that I don't want to use suicide tactics, well... I have to anyway. Because if I dec them to try and fight them, they just drop corp with no repercussions. It's disgusting that PvP is even semi voluntary, and it runs counter to the stated design intent and philosophy of the game. And the fact that it exists in this form at all is contributing to the idiotic player mindset that they deserve in any way to be safe.

I don't like CONCORD either, to be perfectly honest. I think the way they currently work is very heavy handed for sandbox gameplay, and that it could have been handled differently.


I am not sure I would call all of them stupid, its more about ease of dying in some cases and others the reward level in terms of drops offsets the ganking loss. If they drop corp then they are not able to return for a week, but apart from that there is no issue for an individual leaving a corp, that is true. However on the other side of things, it was tightened up in that corps leaving an alliance took the war dec with them and even transferred it to the alliance they joined, that has been quite interesting in that the war dec goes live as soon as they join on the new alliance. The issue here of course is a balance issue, because on the other side we have people going after very easy targets continiously and if there is no way out for those people they are forced out of the game, it really is a difficult one to get right for CCP.

When I first started playing Eve there was a war dec and I was quite excited about it, but then the corp I was in decided not to fight and just wait out the war dec, I was like, WTF, then after a few conversations the penny dropped, the issue for that corp was tha the people who had war decc'd them used a mass of out of corp neutral RR, so there was no point in fighting, now of course that has change and people get a suspect flag for repping. But think about that, the design issue there which people used to their advantage, it created an attitude not to fight because the dice was loaded against them, if they tried to shoot the neutral RR they were Concorded. But old habits die hard and that attitude of not fighting is now in the culture of hisec. So at that point a badly thought out game mechanic resulted in a culture of evasion.

I don't really know what the amswer is in terms of enabling people who are not pew pew orientated to play without being preyed upon until extinction, because while I don't like CONCORD, I cannot in all honesty see anyway to keep that block of players in game if there was no safe zones, and that is a lot of players which CCP would not like to lose. To be honest with war decs and ganks it is not totally safe and neither should it be, but there does need to be a safe zone for more delicate players and activities.

I guess your frustration is the people who drop corp and join an NPC corp, and short of ganking there is no way of getting a kill on them, I hear you, but I still think that there has to be a way for players to not be hunted until they drop out of the game.

Plenty of people to shoot in low and null and wormholes. He simply wants easy to kill targets without having to worry about non war targets, IE he wants to be protected in high sec by concord but at the same time doesn't want to be in the same position as the war targets he's decced, IE attacked in a non-consensual manner other than by the corp he's decced. And he wants to kill non pvp targets because they're easy.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#342 - 2013-10-18 06:31:39 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:


Essentially they have buffed war deccers and nerfed war evaders but the basic mechanics are the same.



Yeah I remember when the "alliance P" buff to wardecs went through too.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#343 - 2013-10-18 06:32:15 UTC
You know, Infinity, if you're going to claim total knowledge of a subject, then you shouldn't be dishonest in such easily exposable ways.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#344 - 2013-10-18 06:33:33 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
You know, Infinity, if you're going to claim total knowledge of a subject, then you shouldn't be dishonest in such easily exposable ways.

I never lie.

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Skeln Thargensen
Doomheim
#345 - 2013-10-18 06:46:27 UTC
don't give in to the scrublords they hate your freedoms.

forums.  serious business.

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#346 - 2013-10-18 06:49:14 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the fact that despite all you say more people are in empire doing missions than in any part of null, low sec or wormholes. Many of those folks have access to null and everyone has access to low and wormholes, yet missions are still the most use PVE. It's because people realize that high sec missions are the path of least resistance when it comes to isk making. If everyone were like me or you, they wouldn't be in high sec, now would they?


Ah, but Jenn, you forget! It's not that all these people raking in money hand over fist have figured out the best way to make money, it's that they have all had the wool pulled over their eyes by the ebil denizens of nullsec (and me, despite the fact that I live in highsec).

You're really bitter about high sec aren't you. I think you need to understand that this is just a computer game. You're angry that people can avoid wars you declare on them - why? Are you paying their sub?

Do you not understand that since 2003 its been this way. That was the way it was designed. You joined a game that had these rules already and now you're whinging about it? Why did'nt you just look for a different game?

You're angry that high sec is safe. In the words of the original lead developer Oveur - "High sec is supposed to be relatively safe". Relatively to low and null sec. If you want to fight people who can't avoid wars, do it in low and null.

That's also a design that has been in place since 2003 when I started playing.

Don't try to adapt the game to your playstyle, adapt your playstyle to the game.

And before you say "oh but you try to change it", I suggest changes, I don't demand them or get all hateful and nasty towards others because they don't play to my style...

keep posting, infinity ziona, you have him on the back foot now :popcorn:
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#347 - 2013-10-18 07:52:23 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
You can argue with me, but you can't argue with the fact that despite all you say more people are in empire doing missions than in any part of null, low sec or wormholes. Many of those folks have access to null and everyone has access to low and wormholes, yet missions are still the most use PVE. It's because people realize that high sec missions are the path of least resistance when it comes to isk making. If everyone were like me or you, they wouldn't be in high sec, now would they?


Ah, but Jenn, you forget! It's not that all these people raking in money hand over fist have figured out the best way to make money, it's that they have all had the wool pulled over their eyes by the ebil denizens of nullsec (and me, despite the fact that I live in highsec).

You're really bitter about high sec aren't you. I think you need to understand that this is just a computer game. You're angry that people can avoid wars you declare on them - why? Are you paying their sub?

Do you not understand that since 2003 its been this way. That was the way it was designed. You joined a game that had these rules already and now you're whinging about it? Why did'nt you just look for a different game?

You're angry that high sec is safe. In the words of the original lead developer Oveur - "High sec is supposed to be relatively safe". Relatively to low and null sec. If you want to fight people who can't avoid wars, do it in low and null.

That's also a design that has been in place since 2003 when I started playing.

Don't try to adapt the game to your playstyle, adapt your playstyle to the game.

And before you say "oh but you try to change it", I suggest changes, I don't demand them or get all hateful and nasty towards others because they don't play to my style...

keep posting, infinity ziona, you have him on the back foot now :popcorn:


I thought that was an excellent reply too, I should go back and upvote it.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#348 - 2013-10-18 08:02:15 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Plenty of people to shoot in low and null and wormholes. He simply wants easy to kill targets without having to worry about non war targets, IE he wants to be protected in high sec by concord but at the same time doesn't want to be in the same position as the war targets he's decced, IE attacked in a non-consensual manner other than by the corp he's decced. And he wants to kill non pvp targets because they're easy.


I sort of thought that was what he meant, but I can understand the frustration of war decc'ing and finding all the active characters in the corp decamp to a NPC corp, of course at this point his only option is to gank and my question to him is why doesn't he gank them.

Your point is well made, which is why I don't have a single kill in hisec to my name, null and low for me...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#349 - 2013-10-18 08:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
I see the OP still hasn't corrected the mistake in comparing complexes with missions yet.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#350 - 2013-10-18 08:32:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Infinity Ziona
baltec1 wrote:
I see the OP still hasn't corrected the mistake in comparing complexes with missions yet.

Its not a mistake thats why. Combat sites are unlimited, they respawn in other systems. Missions are unlimited. They spawn randomly too.

Whether there is a potential bottleneck if everyone moved to null and started doing combat sites is irrelevant since that will never happen.

I believe it was you Baltec who asked me to provide this information about a month ago. So I want to thank you for helping me expose the hypocrisy of the nullets who ask for highsec to be nerfed to be inline with null, and on a personal level for providing me with the opportunity and incentive to try out null farming.

It's given me a new absurdly profitable source of income stream and made it possible for me to sub up and train the remaining cov bomber pilots I need to form my 10 account ISBoxer bomber wing.

I would like to ask your permission to call one of them Little Baltec?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)

Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#351 - 2013-10-18 08:41:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
I thought that was an excellent reply too, I should go back and upvote it.

ok just to be clear

are you being sarcastic, too? because ziona's post is objectively crap
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#352 - 2013-10-18 08:50:34 UTC
Infinity Ziona wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You know, Infinity, if you're going to claim total knowledge of a subject, then you shouldn't be dishonest in such easily exposable ways.

I never lie.


It's easy to be dishonest whilst only speaking the exact truth. But that's not even what you did.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#353 - 2013-10-18 08:51:42 UTC
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I thought that was an excellent reply too, I should go back and upvote it.

ok just to be clear

are you being sarcastic, too? because ziona's post is objectively crap


Acually no, but with hindsight I can say that I was being sarcastic about your post then because Infinity Ziona's post was excellent.

I know you lot go on about some Risk/Reward balance, but don't forget that there is also a Boredom/Reward factor to take into account when looking at level 4's, its amusing to see the 0.0 splergelords miss that fact everytime they post about risk/reward when whining about level 4's.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Onictus
Capital Fusion.
Pandemic Horde
#354 - 2013-10-18 08:59:27 UTC
You think anoms are exiting?

Are you mad?

I got a few in this morning, it was a two hour yawnfest for maybe two hundred mil.
Benny Ohu
Chaotic Tranquility
#355 - 2013-10-18 09:00:59 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I thought that was an excellent reply too, I should go back and upvote it.

ok just to be clear

are you being sarcastic, too? because ziona's post is objectively crap


Acually no, but with hindsight I can say that I was being sarcastic about your post then because Infinity Ziona's post was excellent.

I see.







:popcorn:
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#356 - 2013-10-18 09:08:45 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I thought that was an excellent reply too, I should go back and upvote it.

ok just to be clear

are you being sarcastic, too? because ziona's post is objectively crap


Acually no, but with hindsight I can say that I was being sarcastic about your post then because Infinity Ziona's post was excellent.

I know you lot go on about some Risk/Reward balance, but don't forget that there is also a Boredom/Reward factor to take into account when looking at level 4's, its amusing to see the 0.0 splergelords miss that fact everytime they post about risk/reward when whining about level 4's.



Comparable tasks.

Highsec plexing <-> nullsec plexing.
Missions <-> pirate faction missions <-> anomolies

If you are going to talk about boredom, then unfortunately the elephant in the room is anomalies. In the real world where you have 1000 people to house and you have sov over 40 systems, people have to do anomalies for income.

Can't tell you much I appreciate the days when my personal vanity rental spawns up 5 things and I get a whole play session without shooting an anom.
cyndrogen
The Greatest Corp in the Universe
#357 - 2013-10-18 09:23:01 UTC
I see what you did there..... clever girl.

Every day in every way I improve my skills and get better.

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#358 - 2013-10-18 09:37:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Tauranon wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Benny Ohu wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I thought that was an excellent reply too, I should go back and upvote it.

ok just to be clear

are you being sarcastic, too? because ziona's post is objectively crap


Acually no, but with hindsight I can say that I was being sarcastic about your post then because Infinity Ziona's post was excellent.

I know you lot go on about some Risk/Reward balance, but don't forget that there is also a Boredom/Reward factor to take into account when looking at level 4's, its amusing to see the 0.0 splergelords miss that fact everytime they post about risk/reward when whining about level 4's.



Comparable tasks.

Highsec plexing <-> nullsec plexing.
Missions <-> pirate faction missions <-> anomolies

If you are going to talk about boredom, then unfortunately the elephant in the room is anomalies. In the real world where you have 1000 people to house and you have sov over 40 systems, people have to do anomalies for income.

Can't tell you much I appreciate the days when my personal vanity rental spawns up 5 things and I get a whole play session without shooting an anom.


The fun in Eve is PvP, so doing anoms means you are at risk, this made doing anoms fun because you had to be ready to GTFO, this meant that every time a frigate scrams the ratting ship a slight quiver of concern is produced while one removes that threat to your warp out. Warping in and setting up your alignment also produces that concern, also you have to keep an eye on intel and anticipate threats based on any black spots in the intel, of course having a scout next door helps. The fun part is not doing the anoms, its the fact that you have risk. Your point is that they in themselves are of course boring and that this invalidates my boredom /reward suggestion, but still at the end of the days the anoms do produce a higher income than level 4's and tehy are more fun because they have the 0.0 risk. So shall we call it Risk/Reward/Boredom balance?

Just to remind you:

Quote:
I fly a Machariel (sometimes dual boxed with a Dominix for faster farming) in null sec and the isk is ok. But I can take that same Machariel to Empire where I don't even have to getting killed (because i'm not wardeced or flying a blinged out ship) and run missions and make 60 to 70% as much isk (or do high sec incursions and make the same or more average isk per hour without the supreme headache of having to move loot to empire to sell) without any chance of interruption.


I read that to get 60% to 70% of the ISK he/she/it gets in 0.0 doing anoms, thats not clear come to think of it, is it saying that it gets 60% to 70% above anoms in level 4's, which I disagree with. Oh well..., its not clear is it!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#359 - 2013-10-18 09:43:45 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Its not a mistake thats why. Combat sites are unlimited,


You cannot run thousands of players on them.

we have over 25k people in our space with thousands more on the way. You cannot even keep 100 people per region going on them.

Anoms are what the vast bulk of people do out here so it is them you should be comparing mission to.
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I believe it was you Baltec who asked me to provide this information about a month ago.


Yes, I told you to do anoms because that is what we get in place of missions.
Infinity Ziona
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#360 - 2013-10-18 09:52:47 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Infinity Ziona wrote:

Its not a mistake thats why. Combat sites are unlimited,


You cannot run thousands of players on them.

we have over 25k people in our space with thousands more on the way. You cannot even keep 100 people per region going on them.

Anoms are what the vast bulk of people do out here so it is them you should be comparing mission to.
Infinity Ziona wrote:

I believe it was you Baltec who asked me to provide this information about a month ago.


Yes, I told you to do anoms because that is what we get in place of missions.

Can I call one of my bomber children Little Baltec or not?

CCP Fozzie “We can see how much money people are making in nullsec and it is, a gigantic amount, a shit-ton… in null sec anomalies. “*

Kaalrus pwned..... :)