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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#221 - 2013-06-06 04:09:00 UTC
Xeraphi wrote:
Ruze wrote:
It works two ways. As a guy, we know that we have a chance in a debate against other guys. But in any kind of altercation with a woman, we are naturally penalized. We (guys) are even raised to treat it this way. Don't hit a girl.


I got hit plenty by boys when I was a kid and whenever I tried to defend myself it was all "it's not nice to hit people! and "be a lady!" lol

Just defending myself against multiple male attackers I got sent to the principal's office and written up as a troublemaker, and nothing was done about the boys attacking me.

Double standards suck.


Piece by piece. I've never hit a girl. Got hit by plenty of them, as growing up I was small. "Be a gentleman, son. Never hit a lady."

By the way, I defended myself more than once against multiple attackers before, too. I was the one who got in trouble. But this time it was because at my school, white was the minority, and the school didn't want to be seen as punishing ethnicity. Yeah, double standards.

Most hated group in the world. Middle class white men. Don't believe it? Try roleplaying one of those for a while, especially in the real world.

At least when you roleplay a woman, they ask how your doing and sometimes give you free ****.



My point, I guess, is that it's easy for each of us, in our own way, to see ourselves as victimized. But the universe, whether it's the universe of EvE or the real world, has a lot of victims in it. Race, creed, religion and sex don't really make one group or another a bigger victim.

As we learn in EvE every day ... victims usually choose to be what they are, by refusing to accept responsibility for their own place and actions.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Brit Green
Hagkaup
#222 - 2013-06-06 04:11:15 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

I drive away anyone who wants to come into EVE and play the "tee hee" game instead. Because I don't play that game.


o3oThats a shame o3o cuz you're really cute lol. If you let me in your corp I bet we can have some real fun tee hee Blink I'm pretty cute irl. I'll send you a pic if you treat me right hee hee <3
Rusti Trombone
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#223 - 2013-06-06 04:11:58 UTC
Funny thing is Eve is often an escape from the women in my life. Just don't tell them I said that Straight
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#224 - 2013-06-06 04:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Quote:
It works two ways. As a guy, we know that we have a chance in a debate against other guys. But in any kind of altercation with a woman, we are naturally penalized. We (guys) are even raised to treat it this way. Don't hit a girl.

If it comes down to you and the authorities (the law, the legal system, the school system, the company HR department, the game managers), the female is 'expected' to receive the advantage. No authority system is willing to side against a woman without overwhelming, overshadowing evidence of guilt. The repercussions, politically, are simply too strong.


Felt the need to post about this. He's entirely right. Most men will take the easier path of simply bowing out of the situation (and often, out of society at large) rather than play games with someone who has stacked the deck.

As an example, I have hit women. I've been taught to answer violence with violence, regardless of whom it comes from. To do anything less is to admit that my life means less than the life of the person aggressing me. And, my life matters to me more than yours does.

A few years ago I broke the wrist of a chica who thought it would be a great idea to pull a knife on me, when I confronted her about trying to cut in front of a mother with kids in line at a movie theater. (for crying out loud, no cuts is something you learn in pre school)

I was in cuffs for about 90 seconds, which is how long it took my wife to show the cops the video she had taken of the entire incident from the sidelines. Video phones are a wonderful thing. I even got to see my movie on time too. That's a little something I like to call Black Knighting. (admitted Red Pill guy over here)

But his statement of "overwhelming, overshadowing evidence of guilt" is entirely correct. Female privilege is at an all time high here in America, to the point where any female, even one you've never met, can have you jailed at the drop of a hat by using a word that starts with R. And especially considering that about a third of all men in prison for the crime that begins with R are falsely accused (at least according to FBI stats), that is a hell of a thing.

Men can hardly be blamed for being defensive with all of these factors weighing in against them.

Xeraphi wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I don't do that. I drive away anyone who wants to come into EVE and play the "tee hee" game instead. Because I don't play that game.


Obviously women are only here to play the "tee hee" game right?


Did I say that? No, not all of them are. But the ones who are, I have gleefully chased right out of this game and back to WoW/Farmville.
Quote:

o3oThats a shame o3o cuz you're really cute lol. If you let me in your corp I bet we can have some real fun tee hee I'm pretty cute irl. I'll send you a pic if you treat me right hee hee <3


The sad thing is, that is one of the more coherent ones I've ever seen since I started playing MMOs.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#225 - 2013-06-06 04:19:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You just stereotyped all men who play this game, btw. Moreso than anyone in this thread has done to women. You didn't even imply, you outright stated that men aren't capable of knowing the difference between NPC banter and real people, and that men are apparently stupid enough for the 5 total lines of dialogue in which this is mentioned to effect our entire outlook on gender relations.

The only bigot here is you.


Well, there is also you deliberately misinterpreting words. It is clear from my first reading of what Xeraphi wrote that the lines of dialogue are designed for men: the phrase "sissy girl" we laugh off as clueless noob smack talk because that is the kind of language we used while growing up: in my school the weaker boys were labelled "wussy girl's blouse".

That kind of smack talk sounds ridiculous to a girl unless she pretends to be a boy for a moment. That her gender is used as a slur sends a clear signal to the girl: "you aren't welcome here."

As women, these girls have years of life experience providing new contexts in which to interpret these lines, but the message is the same: "you are alien, you do not belong."

No one is actually suggesting that those lines of smack talk make male players suddenly decide to be sexist or misogynist.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Cat Murdoch
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#226 - 2013-06-06 04:23:19 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Cat Murdoch wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
As for the banning. I still defend this. We had our core raiding group (and we were trying for server first, so this was quite painful) literally destroyed by a female who had been in guild for about 2 weeks. I won't get into the specifics, but after that if I teamspeak interviewed a girl, I just said they weren't what we were looking for.

And there's the sad, frustrating side of sexism. If a male player causes trouble, it's just him that's bad news. If a female player causes trouble, it's *all* women are bad news. Roll


I suppose ban was the wrong word. It wasn't ever anything written down, but it just turned out the way that, we didn't end up increasing our numbers of females in our guild. It was about attitude, nothing else. Myself and the other officers more or less took it upon ourselves to preemptively weed out people who would cause drama. As it turned out, that meant we weeded out all of the successive females who applied to our guild. And about ten times as many males.

Fair enough. That's somewhat different to "...after that if I teamspeak interviewed a girl, I just said they weren't what we were looking for."

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
So, then, are you telling me that if literally 4 months of your hard work, between getting your guild recruiting up pre patch, farming mats and trying your absolute damn hardest to blaze through progression, only to have it ruined by little miss "Look I haz ****!", you wouldn't make some changes to your organization?

Not at all, if you're judging people on their behaviour and attitude, and not simply on the basis of whether they're male or female. Your original posts made it sound like you implemented a blanket ban on recruiting female players simply on the basis of them being female, and for no other reason.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Also, when it comes "if it's a man, it's just them causing trouble", nothing could be further from the truth. They got kicked the same as the female in question, even though it cost me my core offtank.

The point I was making is that if a male player causes trouble, it's just that particular player who gets tagged as a troublemaker, not *all male players*, whereas if a female player causes trouble, theree is, frustratingly, a tendency (and your original posts seemed to be illustrating this) to extrapolate from that one player's behaviour and tar all female players with the same brush.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#227 - 2013-06-06 04:23:37 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
You just stereotyped all men who play this game, btw. Moreso than anyone in this thread has done to women. You didn't even imply, you outright stated that men aren't capable of knowing the difference between NPC banter and real people, and that men are apparently stupid enough for the 5 total lines of dialogue in which this is mentioned to effect our entire outlook on gender relations.

The only bigot here is you.


Well, there is also you deliberately misinterpreting words. It is clear from my first reading of what Xeraphi wrote that the lines of dialogue are designed for men: the phrase "sissy girl" we laugh off as clueless noob smack talk because that is the kind of language we used while growing up: in my school the weaker boys were labelled "wussy girl's blouse".

That kind of smack talk sounds ridiculous to a girl unless she pretends to be a boy for a moment. That her gender is used as a slur sends a clear signal to the girl: "you aren't welcome here."

As women, these girls have years of life experience providing new contexts in which to interpret these lines, but the message is the same: "you are alien, you do not belong."

No one is actually suggesting that those lines of smack talk make male players suddenly decide to be sexist or misogynist.


Tch, see, I knew I should have put /sarcasm in there.

She said, outright, that the attitude of men in this game is a result of the tutorial saying "sissy girl". I'd like to think most men have more cognitive ability than that though.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#228 - 2013-06-06 04:25:35 UTC
Rusti Trombone wrote:
Funny thing is Eve is often an escape from the women in my life. Just don't tell them I said that Straight


I've tried to bring my women with me, but all they ever want to do is blow stuff up.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#229 - 2013-06-06 04:29:18 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I'm labeling you a feminist. Because you speak like one, and you make references to 60s-70s feminist terminology. If the shoe fits, after all.


60s-70s "feminist" terminology existed here as well...

http://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/ws/index.php?pid=29640

Quote:
Equal Rights

We favor submission by Congress to the States of an amendment to the Constitution providing for equal rights for men and women.


And remained on the platform into the 60s. Became a major issue even during the Ford Administration.

You probably weren't even born then to realize it, and now spoon fed Neo-Con BS.

So don't label what you simply don't even understand.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Brit Green
Hagkaup
#230 - 2013-06-06 04:29:30 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Brit wrote:

o3oThats a shame o3o cuz you're really cute lol. If you let me in your corp I bet we can have some real fun tee hee I'm pretty cute irl. I'll send you a pic if you treat me right hee hee <3


The sad thing is, that is one of the more coherent ones I've ever seen since I started playing MMOs.


No the sad thing is that you have such a twisted idea of what a female gamer is, that you think every guy who plays into your idea is actually a girl. You won't see most girl gamers announcing themselves as such. They don't want the harassment. They just want to play the game. It's obvious you have no idea about real women. Just guys pretending to be one.

What a strange world you must live in.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#231 - 2013-06-06 04:29:52 UTC
Quote:
Fair enough. That's somewhat different to "...after that if I teamspeak interviewed a girl, I just said they weren't what we were looking for."


I'd debate that actually. It's a far cry from just saying upfront "no girls", to actually still having the interviews to give someone a chance in the first place.

Quote:
The point I was making is that if a male player causes trouble, it's just that particular player who gets tagged as a troublemaker, not *all male players*, whereas if a female player causes trouble, theree is, frustratingly, a tendency (and your original posts seemed to be illustrating this) to extrapolate from that one player's behaviour and tar all female players with the same brush.


If they do that, as Ruze mentioned above, it's a learned trait designed to perform damage control based on previous bad experiences. That's just how humans behave.

Once bitten...

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#232 - 2013-06-06 04:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Brit Green wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Brit wrote:

o3oThats a shame o3o cuz you're really cute lol. If you let me in your corp I bet we can have some real fun tee hee I'm pretty cute irl. I'll send you a pic if you treat me right hee hee <3


The sad thing is, that is one of the more coherent ones I've ever seen since I started playing MMOs.


No the sad thing is that you have such a twisted idea of what a female gamer is, that you think every guy who plays into your idea is actually a girl. You won't see most girl gamers announcing themselves as such. They don't want the harassment. They just want to play the game. It's obvious you have no idea about real women. Just guys pretending to be one.

What a strange world you must live in.


No, I simply assumed you were giving a silly example. Because yeah, I've seen plenty of people talk like that. Sarcasm is hard.

[Edit: You clearly don't have little sisters.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#233 - 2013-06-06 04:33:02 UTC
Brit Green wrote:
No the sad thing is that you have such a twisted idea of what a female gamer is, that you think every guy who plays into your idea is actually a girl.


He's trolling, badly.

Doesn't even understand the ideology, but posturing as a caveman.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#234 - 2013-06-06 04:34:30 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Brit Green wrote:
No the sad thing is that you have such a twisted idea of what a female gamer is, that you think every guy who plays into your idea is actually a girl.


He's trolling, badly.

Doesn't even understand the ideology, but posturing as a caveman.


I'd say, given how this discussion has amped up, that if I'm trolling, I'm trolling well.

Also, so your response to my telling you that you're an old style feminist, is to post a political ad campaign from the 40s? How does that even make sense?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#235 - 2013-06-06 04:40:22 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Quote:
The point I was making is that if a male player causes trouble, it's just that particular player who gets tagged as a troublemaker, not *all male players*, whereas if a female player causes trouble, theree is, frustratingly, a tendency (and your original posts seemed to be illustrating this) to extrapolate from that one player's behaviour and tar all female players with the same brush.


If they do that, as Ruze mentioned above, it's a learned trait designed to perform damage control based on previous bad experiences. That's just how humans behave.

Once bitten...


Might I also point out that there is the eternal condemnation of 'all men' by women as well. It's just a two way street. One of the common lines you hear on TV if some guy gets too fresh with a girl is 'all men are creeps, honey'.

It's just our nature. I'm a guy, so damning all guys for the behavior of one guy isn't quite going to work. Damning all girls, on the other hand, is easier. It's a lot easier, in fact, to separate and label 'others' and generalize. That is why we have sexism, racism, etc. The 'Us' versus 'Them'.

In this particular context, someone pointed out how men condem women as a whole. I know there are plenty of guys reading this who do no such thing, particularly myself as a prime example. But it would be just as easy, and short sighted, for a man to say that once a man hurts a woman, she hates all women. Because there are targets in the audience who HAVE said that. Does this mean every woman feels that way towards men? No.

And is it a proof of a general bias? Not in the slightest. Just a means to argue perceived victimization. Towards the one individual that said it, the argument is valid. Towards all males, the argument is invalid. Unless your willing to accept the old adage that generalizations are generally true. Which opens a lot of doors most people don't want to open.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#236 - 2013-06-06 04:41:24 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Brit Green wrote:
No the sad thing is that you have such a twisted idea of what a female gamer is, that you think every guy who plays into your idea is actually a girl.


He's trolling, badly.

Doesn't even understand the ideology, but posturing as a caveman.


I'd say, given how this discussion has amped up, that if I'm trolling, I'm trolling well.

Also, so your response to my telling you that you're an old style feminist, is to post a political ad campaign from the 40s? How does that even make sense?


English is a dead language, so the definition of words no longer change with the time. Didn't you know that?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Cat Murdoch
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#237 - 2013-06-06 04:43:10 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Cat Murdoch wrote:
The point I was making is that if a male player causes trouble, it's just that particular player who gets tagged as a troublemaker, not *all male players*, whereas if a female player causes trouble, theree is, frustratingly, a tendency (and your original posts seemed to be illustrating this) to extrapolate from that one player's behaviour and tar all female players with the same brush.


If they do that, as Ruze mentioned above, it's a learned trait designed to perform damage control based on previous bad experiences. That's just how humans behave.

Once bitten...

Hmmm... if that's all it was, it would just as much apply to male players. I can't remember ever seeing anyone swear never to recruit another *male player* cos the last one they recruited looted the corp hangar and wallet...
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#238 - 2013-06-06 04:47:10 UTC
Cat Murdoch wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Cat Murdoch wrote:
The point I was making is that if a male player causes trouble, it's just that particular player who gets tagged as a troublemaker, not *all male players*, whereas if a female player causes trouble, theree is, frustratingly, a tendency (and your original posts seemed to be illustrating this) to extrapolate from that one player's behaviour and tar all female players with the same brush.


If they do that, as Ruze mentioned above, it's a learned trait designed to perform damage control based on previous bad experiences. That's just how humans behave.

Once bitten...

Hmmm... if that's all it was, it would just as much apply to male players. I can't remember ever seeing anyone swear never to recruit another *male player* cos the last one they recruited looted the corp hangar and wallet...


Whens the last time you saw an 'all woman' corp. And I mean, Girl in Real Life kinda woman, not all female toon?

By definition that kind of corp, having to search out and organize members by sex alone, would be kinda sexist, no?

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#239 - 2013-06-06 04:51:21 UTC
Quote:
Whens the last time you saw an 'all woman' corp. And I mean, Girl in Real Life kinda woman, not all female toon?

By definition that kind of corp, having to search out and organize members by sex alone, would be kinda sexist, no?


No, because only men can be sexist, since they have all teh power. (I literally just got told this yesterday by someone on the WoW forums)

Most people don't see exclusivity from the other side, or think about how they may do such things themselves. Introspective thought is long since a lost art form.


Cat Murdoch wrote:
Hmmm... if that's all it was, it would just as much apply to male players. I can't remember ever seeing anyone swear never to recruit another *male player* cos the last one they recruited looted the corp hangar and wallet...


Yeah, that's because of the "stacked deck" effect. Can a man who was kicked from a corp with a bounty on his head pretend to cry to a bunch of people and get a plex from a sympathetic ear? More like I'd get my ass shot off by people screaming "Awox'er! Burn it with fire!".

So yeah, it still applies.

Once bitten...

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#240 - 2013-06-06 04:58:11 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Xeraphi wrote:
We don't need to attract women to the game we need to stop driving them (us) away from it.

That's like saying "we need to eradicate racism". Pretty noble goal, but meaningless platitudes aren't going to do it. The real perpetrators, the ones you're really hoping to address, will never see this thread. Nor will they ever be interested in having an intellectual discussion. You just can't use logic to defeat someone who's so willfully ignorant of it.


The journey of a thousand miles begins with the first step.

Edit: since we are bandying about terms such as "wilful ignorance" the meaning behind my statement is simply that if we don't start trying to eradicate racism and sexism, we will never finish eradicating racism and sexism. As always, the starting place for social change is the individual wishing for the change to happen.

I don't disagree.
But there's not a whole lot to be accomplished here.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)