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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

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Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#241 - 2013-06-06 05:04:16 UTC
Quote:
I don't disagree.
But there's not a whole lot to be accomplished here.


This. Crusade for social change elsewhere than a niche mmo. Go make a billboard or something, yeesh, activists these days are so lazy...

Roll

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#242 - 2013-06-06 05:12:42 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tch, see, I knew I should have put /sarcasm in there.

She said, outright, that the attitude of men in this game is a result of the tutorial saying "sissy girl". I'd like to think most men have more cognitive ability than that though.


That is correct. She said the guys pick up on the attitude of the NPCs. She didn't say that the NPCs turn players into sexist pigs. This is the locker room vs outside world situation: some folks will chuckle at the weak, stereotypical dialogue. Others will see the NPC banter and figure that it's okay to behave that way here. Then you get corp chat and voice comms where people get further inoculated through the echo chamber where the "make me a sammich" jokes fly thick and fast, then they forget to turn that behaviour off when they hit the outside world again.

But for the people who are the butt of the joke, the joke wasn't funny to start with and the echo chamber of locker room humour doesn't get funnier over time.

In the meantime there are the players who just don't appreciate that kind of humour who avoid interactions with the boys clubs where possible, and are further punished by having very few women playing the game meaning the entire game become a stifling sausage feast.

And as for sarcasm, it helps to label it as such beforehand: attempting to recon as sarcasm makes it look like you goofed and are trying to coverup.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#243 - 2013-06-06 05:19:56 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Tch, see, I knew I should have put /sarcasm in there.

She said, outright, that the attitude of men in this game is a result of the tutorial saying "sissy girl". I'd like to think most men have more cognitive ability than that though.


That is correct. She said the guys pick up on the attitude of the NPCs. She didn't say that the NPCs turn players into sexist pigs. This is the locker room vs outside world situation: some folks will chuckle at the weak, stereotypical dialogue. Others will see the NPC banter and figure that it's okay to behave that way here. Then you get corp chat and voice comms where people get further inoculated through the echo chamber where the "make me a sammich" jokes fly thick and fast, then they forget to turn that behaviour off when they hit the outside world again.

But for the people who are the butt of the joke, the joke wasn't funny to start with and the echo chamber of locker room humour doesn't get funnier over time.

In the meantime there are the players who just don't appreciate that kind of humour who avoid interactions with the boys clubs where possible, and are further punished by having very few women playing the game meaning the entire game become a stifling sausage feast.

And as for sarcasm, it helps to label it as such beforehand: attempting to recon as sarcasm makes it look like you goofed and are trying to coverup.


No, it makes me go *facepalm* "Someone took that seriously? Yeesh." Which is why I even said, I knew I should have put /sarcasm in there. Because somebody somewhere took me seriously. The moon is made of cheese. /sarcasm

And I can guarantee you, that any "sexist" things you may hear on voicechat, did not start with less than 10 lines of NPC dialogue. "sammich" jokes, didn't evolve from things a tutorial pirate says.

Let me put it to you this way.

You are a diplomat. You are trying to get yourself into a culture that by and large, doesn't have a lot to do with your culture. Do you go in there with a roar (all caps) and yell "ha ha, you have to accept me!"?

You're the one trying to enter their social setting. They don't have to adapt to you, and to ask all of them to do so is selfish and discriminatory towards the culture they've built up for themselves.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Cat Murdoch
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2013-06-06 05:19:57 UTC
Ruze wrote:
Whens the last time you saw an 'all woman' corp. And I mean, Girl in Real Life kinda woman, not all female toon? By definition that kind of corp, having to search out and organize members by sex alone, would be kinda sexist, no?

Do corps like that exist? I've not come across any, but I'd freely admit I don't know enough corps to regard my knowledge of them as comprehensive. I'd be somewhat leery of any corp that recruited on the basis of the player's gender (whether male or female). On the other hand, I'd have no quibble with a corp recruiting only male or only female characters. Re your sig, some of us can differentiate between fantasy and reality. Smile
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#245 - 2013-06-06 05:32:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I don't disagree.
But there's not a whole lot to be accomplished here.


This. Crusade for social change elsewhere than a niche mmo. Go make a billboard or something, yeesh, activists these days are so lazy...

Roll

You should unlike my post then, because I'm not saying what you seem to think I'm saying.
All I'm saying is that this thread won't accomplish much because you're not confronting anybody who's perpetuating the actual problem. You're just preaching to the choir.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#246 - 2013-06-06 05:33:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Cat Murdoch wrote:
Ruze wrote:
Whens the last time you saw an 'all woman' corp. And I mean, Girl in Real Life kinda woman, not all female toon? By definition that kind of corp, having to search out and organize members by sex alone, would be kinda sexist, no?

Do corps like that exist? I've not come across any, but I'd freely admit I don't know enough corps to regard my knowledge of them as comprehensive. I'd be somewhat leery of any corp that recruited on the basis of the player's gender (whether male or female). On the other hand, I'd have no quibble with a corp recruiting only male or only female characters. Re your sig, some of us can differentiate between fantasy and reality. Smile


The closest I've ever seen is Fweddit's subsection called "Glitterfleet", where they RP as worshippers of Ke$ha. No kidding.
Quote:

You should unlike my post then, because I'm not saying what you seem to think I'm saying.
All I'm saying is that this thread won't accomplish much because you're not confronting anybody who's perpetuating the actual problem. You're just preaching to the choir.


Once again I fail at sarcasm my friend. [Edit: I liked your post because, regardless of what you mean by it, we still agree that this doesn't belong on the EVE Online forums.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Brit Green
Hagkaup
#247 - 2013-06-06 05:38:37 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Cat Murdoch wrote:
Ruze wrote:
Whens the last time you saw an 'all woman' corp. And I mean, Girl in Real Life kinda woman, not all female toon? By definition that kind of corp, having to search out and organize members by sex alone, would be kinda sexist, no?

Do corps like that exist? I've not come across any, but I'd freely admit I don't know enough corps to regard my knowledge of them as comprehensive. I'd be somewhat leery of any corp that recruited on the basis of the player's gender (whether male or female). On the other hand, I'd have no quibble with a corp recruiting only male or only female characters. Re your sig, some of us can differentiate between fantasy and reality. Smile


The closest I've ever seen is Fweddit's subsection called "Glitterfleet", where they RP as worshippers of Ke$ha. No kidding.
Quote:

You should unlike my post then, because I'm not saying what you seem to think I'm saying.
All I'm saying is that this thread won't accomplish much because you're not confronting anybody who's perpetuating the actual problem. You're just preaching to the choir.


Once again I fail at sarcasm my friend.


The real thing
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#248 - 2013-06-06 05:42:47 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And I can guarantee you, that any "sexist" things you may hear on voicechat, did not start with less than 10 lines of NPC dialogue. "sammich" jokes, didn't evolve from things a tutorial pirate says.


The implication of the NPC chat is, "this attitude is acceptable here." It is not the NPC chat that imbued them with the attitude. The NPC chat validated the attitude.

As for what happens when locker room humour is allowed to dominate in corp and voice chat: the message you are sending is quite clear: "we don't want other cultures here."
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#249 - 2013-06-06 05:43:18 UTC
Quote:
The real thing


http://eve-kill.net/?a=corp_detail&crp_id=21912

Their killboard drops off around October of 2010. Idk if they're still active.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#250 - 2013-06-06 05:49:10 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
*snipped political talk* - CCP Eterne

Quote:
The implication of the NPC chat is, "this attitude is acceptable here." It is not the NPC chat that imbued them with the attitude. The NPC chat validated the attitude.

As for what happens when locker room humour is allowed to dominate in corp and voice chat: the message you are sending is quite clear: "we don't want other cultures here."


How many people do you know who did the tutorial? I didn't, until I realized you could get free ships from them. And when I did, I didn't have local chat open so I didn't see this. Didn't know it was there until you mentioned it, at which point I had to look it up.

And you're reading way too much into a few lines of dialogue.

Most cultures don't want intrusion. I have been permabanned from the Cosmopolitan magazine forums for asking them why they don't have any men's interest articles in their magazine. Why they don't have more articles about vehicle repair, how to mix drinks, and put on a tie. You'd be surprised at how hostile they are.

They sure don't want other cultures there, do they?

So, I'd like to know, why so judgemental about male culture? Why are you so intolerant?

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#251 - 2013-06-06 05:53:11 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
If they do that, as Ruze mentioned above, it's a learned trait designed to perform damage control based on previous bad experiences. That's just how humans behave.

Once bitten...


The attribute you are describing is "generalisation."

The attitude you are describing is "sexism" because the attitude is, "every time we bring women into the group, we get trouble. So obviously women are trouble, because we never have this trouble bringing men into the group." Because after all, it couldn't be the group of men that are the root of the problem because they don't know how to keep it in their pants.

Thus the argument of "it's just generalisation as a way to protect the group from danger" is actually backwards. The group can't handle the alien. The group of men can't handle their own emotions: infatuation, fascination, jealousy, envy, etc, so they avoid women. It is not the alien's job to fit in, it is the group's job to be more tolerant of aliens. No amount of diplomacy on the part of women is going to stop immature men behaving immaturely.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#252 - 2013-06-06 05:57:05 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
I'd debate that actually. It's a far cry from just saying upfront "no girls", to actually still having the interviews to give someone a chance in the first place..


The mock interview doesn't stop the policy being "no girls" if the preset opinion is that girls aren't going to be accepted. The only purpose would be to provide the outward appearance of giving women a chance, to avoid the negative attention of the GMs.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#253 - 2013-06-06 06:03:49 UTC
Quote:
No amount of diplomacy on the part of women is going to stop immature men behaving immaturely.


"Then why are we arguing about this?" leaps to mind.

Quote:
The attribute you are describing is "generalisation."

The attitude you are describing is "sexism" because the attitude is, "every time we bring women into the group, we get trouble. So obviously women are trouble, because we never have this trouble bringing men into the group." Because after all, it couldn't be the group of men that are the root of the problem because they don't know how to keep it in their pants.

Thus the argument of "it's just generalisation as a way to protect the group from danger" is actually backwards. The group can't handle the alien. The group of men can't handle their own emotions: infatuation, fascination, jealousy, envy, etc, so they avoid women. It is not the alien's job to fit in, it is the group's job to be more tolerant of aliens.


And once again, you reveal your misandry. You are the outsider. Why should any group be anything but wary of someone who can, and comes from, a group that in their own personal experiences causes trouble?

What you call sexism, I call a defensive mechanism forced onto them by women.

"the men can't keep it in their pants"? So of course, it can't be the kind of drama caused by the person who has done their best to jump on me for saying I don't tolerate people who try to censor me in chat, and had a bunch of people back her up on that, right?

It can't be the kind of drama that starts threads like these, right?

The mere assumption that the theoretical female is always innocent, and is being oppressed, is deliberate self victimization mentality at it's finest. There assumption that men are the ones always at fault because of their "jealousy, envy etc," exposes your actual prejudice.
Quote:

The mock interview doesn't stop the policy being "no girls" if the preset opinion is that girls aren't going to be accepted. The only purpose would be to provide the outward appearance of giving women a chance, to avoid the negative attention of the GMs.


Yeah, pretty much. Didn't have my guild dissolve from the inside out either, until we all disbanded a year later due to half the members having children and not having any IRL time anymore.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Eugene Kerner
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#254 - 2013-06-06 06:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Eugene Kerner
Brit Green wrote:


Sadly closed down...Hellcats - Evewho

TunDraGon is recruiting! "Also, your boobs [:o] "   CCP Eterne, 2012 "When in doubt...make a diȼk joke." Robin Williams - RIP

Cat Murdoch
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#255 - 2013-06-06 06:11:34 UTC
Brit Green wrote:
Heh! It looks like they went out of business though (probably around the time their killboard drops off, as Kaarous found):

https://gate.eveonline.com/Corporation/Hellcats :
Quote:
Hellcats cannot be found.

There is currently no corporation profile with the name Hellcats
https://gate.eveonline.com/Search/Index/Hellcats :
Quote:
No results for your query: "Hellcats"
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#256 - 2013-06-06 06:16:04 UTC
Yeah, Hellcats kinda went *poof* when Mynxee left the game. She is most certainly one of the "instigator" type that CCP Seagull is so fond of.
Cat Murdoch
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#257 - 2013-06-06 06:28:56 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And once again, you reveal your misandry. You are the outsider. Why should any group be anything but wary of someone who can, and comes from, a group that in their own personal experiences causes trouble?

What you call sexism, I call a defensive mechanism forced onto them by women.

What?What?What?
Women are outsiders?
Women generally cause trouble?
Women force men to be sexist just by being women?
ShockedShockedShocked

Hey ho... I'm just going to repeat/paraphrase something I said earlier - many of the guys playing Eve (and other online games) are witty and fun to be around, and don't give two hoots whether a player is male or female. Thank god for that.
Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#258 - 2013-06-06 06:29:24 UTC
Ugh. How awful. I couldn't stand being in a corp with nothing but other women. That's just me though. If I wanted to listen to a bunch of other females going on about whatever's bothering them at the time or bitching about their husbands and boyfriends all day I'd just go to work and hang out in the breakroom. I prefer male company to that of other women most of the time. I've always just been that way. Not very good at playing nice with others. Just too competitive in that sense. Maybe I'll mellow out as as i get older. Remains to be seen.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#259 - 2013-06-06 06:29:28 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
And once again, you reveal your misandry. You are the outsider. Why should any group be anything but wary of someone who can, and comes from, a group that in their own personal experiences causes trouble?


It is not the woman that causes trouble when the men in the group fall over themselves to help her and then get bitter when they see others getting attention too. In the cases I have witnessed, the "drama" is entirely manufactured by the men competing for the attention of the woman. In a few cases the woman is deliberately fomenting strife because she just loves watching the world burn.

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
"the men can't keep it in their pants"? So of course, it can't be the kind of drama caused by the person who has done their best to jump on me for saying I don't tolerate people who try to censor me in chat, and had a bunch of people back her up on that, right?


Being asked to refrain from kitchen jokes, "**** or GTFO" or sammich comments, is just as acceptable form of censorship as your workmates asking you to not use the F word or C word in the office. Your stubbornness and refusal to adjust your attitude for the sake of group cohesion is where the drama comes from. This woman plus the people who support her were obviously trying to improve the environment. Perhaps some of your friends liked having women in the group more than they liked the freedom of being able to say "get your ***** ass in the kitchen and make me some pie!"

Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The mere assumption that the theoretical female is always innocent, and is being oppressed, is deliberate self victimization mentality at it's finest. There assumption that men are the ones always at fault because of their "jealousy, envy etc," exposes your actual prejudice.


Your assumption that I am assuming women to be always the innocent victim reveals a lot about your attitude towards women.
Josef Djugashvilis
#260 - 2013-06-06 06:35:32 UTC
I would suggest that the treatment meted out to Mintchip by the mostly male players in these forums, might give an indication as to why Eve does not have many female players.

Of course, they will defend themselves by claiming that it had nothing to do with Mintchip being a woman - yeah right.

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