These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

First post First post First post
Author
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#181 - 2013-06-05 16:08:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Dersen Lowery
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Dersen Lowery wrote:
Now, she is not all women, of course, but the exchange did make me wonder. After all, women play RL competitive sports in droves; it's not that surprising that they'd enjoy the virtual parallel, right?


No.

My sis plays an Arcane mage in WoW. Highest DPS class in the game. She literally blows the bosses up.

I try to get her to go into PvP battlegrounds (to blow chunks out of players -- when the cries are KILL THE ARCANE!!! Even before me as a healer...oh, yeah me want sis there!). AV maybe (end boss). IoC maybe (end boss). Anything else...she'll queue right back into LFR for the nth time instead.


Is that a gender thing, or a personality thing? We've all seen the incursion runners whose bios have some large amount of damage their artillery inflicted on some Sansha NPC, and those are presumably not all women.

I don't PVP in WoW either--when I actually remember I have WoW, which is about once every other month. My destruction warlock got a rash of duel requests from hypercaffeinated teenagers who could go from eager to frustrated to LAME, BORED NOW in about the time it took me to decide whether I felt like accepting. Not my scene. In fact, one of the things I prefer about EVE is that there's very little twitch gameplay. Even the PVP is (relatively!) slow paced.

On the other hand, my wife found herself in a PVP game within Guild Wars 2 quite accidentally, and she completely got into it. She has a competitive streak a mile wide, so that didn't surprise either of us. She's since gotten into the high-end PVP in that game. I've asked her about EVE, and the response was, "I am not a spaceship." She's OK with the PVP, leery of how backgrounded the story is, but no avatar gameplay means no sale. That's fine; EVE can't appeal to everyone, and it shouldn't lose itself trying. But she doesn't feel that way because she's a woman. There are obviously women who enjoy EVE as is. She's part of the 50% or so of gamers of either gender who want to be able to identify with their in-game avatars.

And that gets back to the point that although EVE-the-game can definitely stand a few more rounds of polish, and CCP should definitely continue to iterate on improving the game for the sake of improving the game, the main problem is outside the game. Much of it is even outside gaming altogether. It's not a small problem, but it's a solvable problem.

And the danger of appealing "to women" is that women are individuals with wildly divergent tastes. Appealing to some perceived social norm (in an international game? good luck!) isn't going to work either, because women just might fire up an imaginary character in an imaginary universe to get the hell away from all that for a while, just as men often do.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Cat Murdoch
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#182 - 2013-06-05 21:03:41 UTC
There's been a lot of good stuff posted in this thread. A lot of crap too. Ugh

However...

kes88 wrote:
And to be completely honest, I agree with the people saying it's irrelevant. I don't think it's necessary to make eve more attractive to any demographic. People who like internet spaceships will play internet spaceships.

THIS.

And also...

Dersen Lowery wrote:
And the danger of appealing "to women" is that women are individuals with wildly divergent tastes. Appealing to some perceived social norm (in an international game? good luck!) isn't going to work either, because women just might fire up an imaginary character in an imaginary universe to get the hell away from all that for a while, just as men often do.

THIS.

Eve is a niche game. Changing it so that it's no longer a niche game, and so that it fits some mythical notion of "what women want", is simply going to result in it no longer being Eve, and what's the point in that? Rather than worrying about what "women" want, perhaps the focus needs to be on what more could be done to connect with those women (and men!) who might enjoy Eve, and getting them to give it a go.

It's true that there's a lot of sexist crap floating around in the game - I've experienced some of that myself - and it's possible that puts some women off who might otherwise be interested in playing Eve (even though there are far more witty, funny, decent guys flying around New Eden than the sexist, misogynistic weirdos responsible for the crap). Those of us who enjoy Eve and the kind of gameplay it offers, though, tend to find our own ways of dealing with the crap so we can get on with enjoying this imaginary world we all inhabit. Because ultimately, as kes88 said : People who like internet spaceships will play internet spaceships. Regardless of gender.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#183 - 2013-06-05 21:13:52 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Glass ceiling, wow. Let's go ahead and drag rhetoric from the 60's back up in here. And you called me a dinosaur.


Drag rhetoric from the 60s? I lived back then.

Do you remember desegregation?

Do you remember it as "colored"?

Do you remember the E.R.A. movement?

I did.

I'm nearly 50, but this dinosaur doesn't sit back and say...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilx0VAwtjUE

Don't repeat history. You'll make the same mistakes.



No, I didn't live back then, but that hardly disqualifies me from discussing the topic. Also, you may want to notice that most of things you mentioned, are racial issues, not gender ones. Although I have no idea what Earned Run Average has to do with any of this.

Furthermore, the kind of bra-burning misandrist rhetoric that abounded back then is entirely out of place here. Also, what mistakes? Repeating history by doing what?

Anyway, my comment was made to highlight the irony of you calling me a dinosaur, then using a term that was dated before I was born. Weren't you the one telling me to get with the times? Anyway, moving on.

Malcanis, though he and I do not always agree, has a much more realistic set of numbers than yours.

500k to 5mil? Complete hyperbole.

500k to 530k? Legitimately achievable.

Now, this is the part I do take exception to. 51% of gamers are not female. I mentioned this before, but that statistic is completely trumped up. If you even pretend to play at real statistics, the number is closer to 10%. This is because you can't count Facebook and mobile "gaming" as actually being gamers (of which, btw, some 75-80% or so are female). Those people don't, and won't, play EVE in numbers of enough significance to make them a demographic worth targeting. That's like putting out an ad campaign aimed at Latvian immigrants to Canada.

Do those people buy and play a lot of games? Sure. Are they gamers? No, they're Facebook'ers. They're IPod'ers. If they even consider EVE, and most of them won't, they will all go back to their old staple games. Just like WoW players, another demographic that we should not be wasting our time on targeting.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Garresh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#184 - 2013-06-05 23:34:52 UTC
Ariel Dawn wrote:
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
YOu want more ladies in this game, then you men need to act more like men, and not teens.

"**** or GTFO" and" GIRL=Guy In Real Life" is off-putting.

I'd rather gender not even be an issue in EVE, but...it is.


Gender isn't an issue 99/100 times, it's pretty much almost always trolling or ribbing or etc. Guys spend plenty of time making fun of each other and questioning each others sexuality and being a woman is just something that gives them material for messing around with you, they're not actually out to get you. But these types of articles definitely write themselves, they're pretty much always the same.

When I hear get in the kitchen and make me a sandwich, my response is get in the garage and build me a spice rack first. Call them fat and insinuate that they live in their mother's basement and there you go.


Well said, but while many of us guys are just being dicks because that's how we communicate, there are some dudes who say that **** and mean it offensively. Obviously its gotta be judged on a case by case basis.

Honestly, as dumb as it sounds, I've never met a girl in eve in the 4 years I've been playing, but that's cause Ive flown solo for like 95% of that time, and spent the rest either with the Ninjas or in pub small gang PvP, which is notorious for being full of retards. Point is 4% sounds pretty accurate.

One more dumb point: the worst thing about the sexism seems, to me at least, to be the stereotyping. I'm gonna cite a different game, but I play dota with a bunch irl friends. One is a girl who plays a sick nasty mid and support. The instant she goes on voice chat she gets harassed.

And if she's playing duo with one of our little clan, people see the tags and instantly assume she's my girlfriend, or whoever else's girlfriend. Then they assume she's bad and only decent because we taught her. I see this **** in literally every game I play online. Girls are assumed to be someone's girlfriend and only decent because a MAN taught her. I feel like that **** is worse than the harassment because it effectively dehumanizes and negates any achievements of a competent player. But this problem is widespread. Its not just limited to eve, and its not going to be solved within eve unless people straight up call these ******* out on it and make them suffer.

Tldr; gank and harass any sexist ****** you meet.

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Lady Areola Fappington
#185 - 2013-06-05 23:59:43 UTC
Garresh wrote:

Well said, but while many of us guys are just being dicks because that's how we communicate, there are some dudes who say that **** and mean it offensively. Obviously its gotta be judged on a case by case basis.

Honestly, as dumb as it sounds, I've never met a girl in eve in the 4 years I've been playing, but that's cause Ive flown solo for like 95% of that time, and spent the rest either with the Ninjas or in pub small gang PvP, which is notorious for being full of retards. Point is 4% sounds pretty accurate.

One more dumb point: the worst thing about the sexism seems, to me at least, to be the stereotyping. I'm gonna cite a different game, but I play dota with a bunch irl friends. One is a girl who plays a sick nasty mid and support. The instant she goes on voice chat she gets harassed.

And if she's playing duo with one of our little clan, people see the tags and instantly assume she's my girlfriend, or whoever else's girlfriend. Then they assume she's bad and only decent because we taught her. I see this **** in literally every game I play online. Girls are assumed to be someone's girlfriend and only decent because a MAN taught her. I feel like that **** is worse than the harassment because it effectively dehumanizes and negates any achievements of a competent player. But this problem is widespread. Its not just limited to eve, and its not going to be solved within eve unless people straight up call these ******* out on it and make them suffer.

Tldr; gank and harass any sexist ****** you meet.


Right on the mark. The overt vocal sexism is annoying, but ignorable. It's the "Ohh, a girl! I gotta help them out. They're naturally inferior, obviously they need a man's help to get by in this man's game. Nevermind said girl has been playing EVE since beta..."


I've seen it plenty of times, though...Killboard a mile long, feminine voice on comms, and "Ohh who helped you with that?"

It really doesn't help that there's immature girls out there who take utter advantage of having sex organs on the inside to play the "poor little me" line to get stuff from men. Makes the rest of us look bad.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#186 - 2013-06-06 00:32:44 UTC
Quote:
It really doesn't help that there's immature girls out there who take utter advantage of having sex organs on the inside to play the "poor little me" line to get stuff from men. Makes the rest of us look bad.


I'd like to ask you more about that, actually.

What do you think the ratios are between competent female players and the "Grrl gamers" out there?

Seen not enough of the former myself, compared to the latter.

Also, League of Legends isn't a good example lol, they're dickheads to everyone there.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lady Areola Fappington
#187 - 2013-06-06 00:45:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lady Areola Fappington
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It really doesn't help that there's immature girls out there who take utter advantage of having sex organs on the inside to play the "poor little me" line to get stuff from men. Makes the rest of us look bad.


I'd like to ask you more about that, actually.

What do you think the ratios are between competent female players and the "Grrl gamers" out there?

Seen not enough of the former myself, compared to the latter.

Also, League of Legends isn't a good example lol, they're dickheads to everyone there.



I'd say it's hard to estimate, myself. THere are some out there who consider the mere mention of "I'm a woman" to be "Grrl gamer taking advantage lol drama!".

Along with that, we have the metagame in EVE, where some gals play the "poor little me" card specifically to take ISK away from marks.

Honestly, I think there are very few "Poor little me I'm a silly GRRL GAMUR help me out and buy me stuff look at my boobies teehee" types out there. It's just, they tend to be loud, annoying, and have a huge white-knight following.


To clarify...there are "Girl gamers", and there are gamers who are girls. The former, girls who just happen to play games. The latter, gamers who just happen to be girls.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Seniae 0n3
#188 - 2013-06-06 00:51:16 UTC
dunno ... guys tend to be loud and annoying about their assets too ... noone ever complains about that. Then again I doubt they get much isk for showing their assets.
Garresh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#189 - 2013-06-06 00:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Garresh
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Confuses League with DoTA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhTv2kSBMhc

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#190 - 2013-06-06 00:54:40 UTC
Quote:
I'd say it's hard to estimate, myself. THere are some out there who consider the mere mention of "I'm a woman" to be "Grrl gamer taking advantage lol drama!".


I'm not in that category, but the first time someone tells me to tone down my language (I am quite profane in game), the knives come out. That kind of crap doesn't fly with me, certainly not with corpmates. This a game for adults.

Quote:
Along with that, we have the metagame in EVE, where some gals play the "poor little me" card specifically to take ISK away from marks.

Honestly, I think there are very few "Poor little me I'm a silly GRRL GAMUR help me out and buy me stuff look at my boobies teehee" types out there. It's just, they tend to be loud, annoying, and have a huge white-knight following.


"poor little me" card, yeah, seen that in Jita. That's an old one, too.

So, you'd say it's much more the "vocal minority" syndrome ruining it for the rest? Could be. Haven't really made a study of it thus far, just speaking on experience. Anyone who actually identifies themself as a female, most of them do so for gain of some kind. Not so much in EVE, but freaking everywhere in WoW(presumably other games as well). My old guild banned any further female members besides the two we already had, because otherwise we were stepping in a new pile of drama every couple of days.

Lol @ the white knights, btw. I've found over the years that despite calling the people who dare to criticize a female neckbeard virgin nerds, it's actually the married guys who won't tolerate "tee hee" bullshit, and the basement virgins who vapidly defend their breasted subject of worship.

The worst ones are the YouTubers. though. That place is going to hell pretty quickly.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Eurydia Vespasian
Storm Hunters
#191 - 2013-06-06 00:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Eurydia Vespasian
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
Along with that, we have the metagame in EVE, where some gals play the "poor little me" card specifically to take ISK away from marks.


I may have engaged in this behavior once or twice. Practicing for future corporate heists. Oh crap...I posted this on my main. Drats!
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#192 - 2013-06-06 00:57:48 UTC
Garresh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Confuses League with DoTA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhTv2kSBMhc


Rofl. I apologize. I play both, with the same group of people, depending on whether we want to deal with LoL's dumbass match making system that week. (less BR's on DoTA2 is a major plus, btw)

They're fundamentally the same game however. Yes the nuances are different, but they are both clones of WC3's Defense of the Ancients. Which, btw, still best version of that to ever come out.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#193 - 2013-06-06 01:01:12 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It really doesn't help that there's immature girls out there who take utter advantage of having sex organs on the inside to play the "poor little me" line to get stuff from men. Makes the rest of us look bad.


I'd like to ask you more about that, actually.

What do you think the ratios are between competent female players and the "Grrl gamers" out there?

Seen not enough of the former myself, compared to the latter.

Also, League of Legends isn't a good example lol, they're dickheads to everyone there.


I have certainly played a girl in games to take advantage of the little nerds thinking whatever it is that they think when giving me stuff.

So I will never pass judgment on a real girl for doing the same thing.

How can you people, who play a game that's all about taking unfair advantage of other players, even entertain the thought that using your gender for gain is a bad or unfair thing? Some serious boobie envy goin' on here.

Mr Epeen Cool
Ruze
Next Stage Initiative
#194 - 2013-06-06 01:02:57 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
It's not something that traditionally appeals to women, there's a stigma attached as well as the fact that there's not much character customisation after the creation screen.

if you want more women to play this game, you need avatar interaction within stations and vanity items for them.

Sad but true :(


The simple truth. Walking in stations, incarna, station interaction, avatar interaction.

It's not that combat doesn't appeal to them. My wife is a perfect example against that argument. She does more ratting than mining. But she doesn't like that she can't customize her ship, or walk around and see anybody else in station. She can't decorate her room.

I'm into those kinds of additions, as well. In recent memory, Incarna was the one expansion I simply could not wait to experience. So while internet spaceships mean a lot, as long as Incarna goes no where ... that's probably that.

If you're driven to threaten others with harm or violence because of what they do in game, you can't separate fantasy from reality. That "griefer/thief" is probably more sane than you are. How screwed up is that?

Garresh
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#195 - 2013-06-06 01:06:54 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Garresh wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Confuses League with DoTA



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HhTv2kSBMhc


Rofl. I apologize. I play both, with the same group of people, depending on whether we want to deal with LoL's dumbass match making system that week. (less BR's on DoTA2 is a major plus, btw)

They're fundamentally the same game however. Yes the nuances are different, but they are both clones of WC3's Defense of the Ancients. Which, btw, still best version of that to ever come out.


Lol I'm not actually mad. It was just funny to me.

Also, who the hell posts in a thread about sexism and gender disparities with the name "Lady Areola Fappington"

This Space Intentionally Left Blank

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#196 - 2013-06-06 01:09:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Mr Epeen wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
It really doesn't help that there's immature girls out there who take utter advantage of having sex organs on the inside to play the "poor little me" line to get stuff from men. Makes the rest of us look bad.


I'd like to ask you more about that, actually.

What do you think the ratios are between competent female players and the "Grrl gamers" out there?

Seen not enough of the former myself, compared to the latter.

Also, League of Legends isn't a good example lol, they're dickheads to everyone there.


I have certainly played a girl in games to take advantage of the little nerds thinking whatever it is that they think when giving me stuff.

So I will never pass judgment on a real girl for doing the same thing.

How can you people, who play a game that's all about taking unfair advantage of other players, even entertain the thought that using your gender for gain is a bad or unfair thing? Some serious boobie envy goin' on here.

Mr Epeen Cool


I am not passing judgement on anything. I merely find the attitude of the typical "Grrl gamer" to be annoying enough to not associate with them.

I'm all for taking advantage, cutthroat capitalism is one of the foundations of the game. Seen plenty of people who pretend to be girls in local chat to scam players out of isk, and I laugh every time.

But, I chose who I associate with. And I won't associate with people who make their gender, sexuality, race, political orientation, etc, etc, an issue in game. We are here to fly ships, blow up ships, get blown up in ships, and sell crap to each other. I don't play drama games, and I don't tolerate people who do.

Which goes back to my original question about that. Is the number of competent female players comparable to the "Grrl gamers", or not? Which is larger?

Quote:
Also, who the hell posts in a thread about sexism and gender disparities with the name "Lady Areola Fappington"


Yeah... been wondering that myself. Fortunately I always attempt to take people at face value if it seems they want to have an intelligent discussion.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Lady Areola Fappington
#197 - 2013-06-06 01:17:34 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

"poor little me" card, yeah, seen that in Jita. That's an old one, too.

So, you'd say it's much more the "vocal minority" syndrome ruining it for the rest? Could be. Haven't really made a study of it thus far, just speaking on experience. Anyone who actually identifies themself as a female, most of them do so for gain of some kind. Not so much in EVE, but freaking everywhere in WoW(presumably other games as well). My old guild banned any further female members besides the two we already had, because otherwise we were stepping in a new pile of drama every couple of days.

Lol @ the white knights, btw. I've found over the years that despite calling the people who dare to criticize a female neckbeard virgin nerds, it's actually the married guys who won't tolerate "tee hee" bullshit, and the basement virgins who vapidly defend their breasted subject of worship.

The worst ones are the YouTubers. though. That place is going to hell pretty quickly.



I see what you're saying. I ID as a female, because..well, I am. To me, I see a difference between (corpchat) "Hey man, hows yer girlfriend doing" "it's boyfriend, I'm a girl" vs. (corpchat) "HEY ERRYBODY GIRL GAMER REPORTING IN!"

The banning all women is..honestly a little sad. It's the sexism I was referring to, that makes MMOGs no fun for ladies. There's two parts to all "girl drama", and from my side, it seems to end up being a bunch of desperate guys vying for affection. Sadly, gamer girls can be just as socially inept as male counterparts, and...drama.

You're totally correct on the stable relationship part, too. It's the "OMG I got a chance with this one!" socially inept single guys running into "WOW I'm finally a 10!" socially inept single girls. Those of us past that point just want to get our game on.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#198 - 2013-06-06 01:20:13 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:

Which goes back to my original question about that. Is the number of competent female players comparable to the "Grrl gamers", or not? Which is larger?



The only players that I've ever been sure were women were outstanding pirates that put most of the guys playing to shame.

But that's neither here nor there is it? It's not about gender. It's about ability. This forum is full of threads laughing at the incompetence of players. 96% (or whatever) of whom are men.

I'm sure that the percentage of bad female players is comparable to that of bad male players. Although why it's even being discussed as a gender thing is beyond me.

Mr Epeen Cool
Lady Areola Fappington
#199 - 2013-06-06 01:21:03 UTC
Garresh wrote:



Lol I'm not actually mad. It was just funny to me.

Also, who the hell posts in a thread about sexism and gender disparities with the name "Lady Areola Fappington"



C'mon man, simple things for simple minds! Even us chicks can giggle at sophomoric "lol boobies" humor. If it helps, you can call me Rebecca.

7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided. --Eve New Player Guide

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#200 - 2013-06-06 01:23:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Lady Areola Fappington wrote:
I see what you're saying. I ID as a female, because..well, I am. To me, I see a difference between (corpchat) "Hey man, hows yer girlfriend doing" "it's boyfriend, I'm a girl" vs. (corpchat) "HEY ERRYBODY GIRL GAMER REPORTING IN!"

The banning all women is..honestly a little sad. It's the sexism I was referring to, that makes MMOGs no fun for ladies. There's two parts to all "girl drama", and from my side, it seems to end up being a bunch of desperate guys vying for affection. Sadly, gamer girls can be just as socially inept as male counterparts, and...drama.

You're totally correct on the stable relationship part, too. It's the "OMG I got a chance with this one!" socially inept single guys running into "WOW I'm finally a 10!" socially inept single girls. Those of us past that point just want to get our game on.


No, I meant anyone who says outright "I'm a girl". As you mentioned, it tends to be in all caps. Not just getting into a new guild and someone says "Hey, Cheryl, how's the husband's leg doing after the sugery?".

Big difference between attitudes.

As for the banning. I still defend this. We had our core raiding group (and we were trying for server first, so this was quite painful) literally destroyed by a female who had been in guild for about 2 weeks. I won't get into the specifics, but after that if I teamspeak interviewed a girl, I just said they weren't what we were looking for. Because I didn't find any more like the two females we already had, who just wanted to play the damn game, not play the "tee hee" game. Sorry, but if you try to flutter your e-lashes at me to get into the guild, you've already lost.

Yeah, at this point I am about ready to advocate banning anyone under 21 from logging onto the web, lol. Solves all kinds of problems. :P

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.