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[s]Mars[/s] EVE needs Women!

First post First post First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#261 - 2013-06-06 06:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Eterne
Quote:
Hey ho... I'm just going to repeat/paraphrase something I said earlier - many of the guys playing Eve (and other online games) are witty and fun to be around, and don't give two hoots whether a player is male or female. Thank god for that.


Exactly. My motto is "play the damn game".

*removed inappropriate comments* - CCP Eterne

Quote:
Being asked to refrain from kitchen jokes, "**** or GTFO" or sammich comments, is just as acceptable form of censorship as your workmates asking you to not use the F word or C word in the office. Your stubbornness and refusal to adjust your attitude for the sake of group cohesion is where the drama comes from. This woman plus the people who support her were obviously trying to improve the environment. Perhaps some of your friends liked having women in the group more than they liked the freedom of being able to say "get your ***** ass in the kitchen and make me some pie!"


So, other people have to change how they behaved before you showed up, just because you demand it, right? But then, why is this in here?

Quote:
Your stubbornness and refusal to adjust your attitude for the sake of group cohesion is where the drama comes from.


Uh oh...

See, what all that means is, that if you are joining a group of people, let's say, ten of them.

You have a problem with how, let's say, 8 of them behave.

Are they the problem, or are you?

You are, because you came into a group and are asking 8 people to change how they behaved before you got there, just for your sake.

Is it not obvious yet how inherently seflish this is? [Edit: The assumption here is, I can, if I am the leader of this group, always get an 11th person who isn't going to come and start agitating. I can do that easily.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
#262 - 2013-06-06 06:47:36 UTC
I play because of my husband.. or at least that's how it started. He got me to play by telling me that his corporation needed me. I was the only one who was willing to spend every minute training industry. I learned to love the game.. even long after my husband stopped playing.

If you want women to play the players are going to have to court women. CCP can't change eve into "rainbow ponies" and expect to maintain their loyal player base. Like the RL military there will always be fewer women interested in combat... but there will be some that will put up with it for the fun to be had in association and cooperation with others.

  - remove the cloaked from local; free intel is the real problem, not  "afk" cloaking -

[IMG]http://i12.photobucket.com/albums/a208/DawnFrostbringer/consultsig.jpg[/IMG]

IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome
Shadow Cartel
#263 - 2013-06-06 07:04:32 UTC
A fair few girls play eve.


Does eve need more?
Wouldn't hurt but wouldn't help either.
It makes no difference if the next pilot is male or female.

From my perspective:
My ex gf played for approx 3 years - was hilarious watching the sad basement dwellers popping up everywhere once they found out there was a female playing.

She found it easier not to tell people she was a female and let them assume it's just another guy but eventually it gets out and the desperate, sad people in eve come out of the woodwork.

So next time you wonder why there are not more females playing eve.
Remember - You lot are mostly to blame.


My suggestion:
Leave the house if you want to meet a female.


Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#264 - 2013-06-06 07:09:07 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
At what point did I ever tell you I was a Republican? I'm not registered for any political party actually. Why such giant leaps in logic?


The "giant leaps in logic" is you're a bad troll.

Labeling. Posturing. And making assumptions that neither said or implied.

...Red herring...

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Count of MonteCylon
New Destiny Kingdom
#265 - 2013-06-06 07:36:30 UTC
We have all these different ship skins lying around unused. If you could customize your ship's color scheme and some of the other patterns or textures, every woman would be flying around high-sec playing this game to show their ships to each other.

Unfortunately, we have the resources for the "silver magnate" and so on loaded into our computers without anyone ever using any of the stuff. I think it's a little ridiculous that this much customization potential goes unused in an economic game.

For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. -- Ephesians 6:12

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#266 - 2013-06-06 08:22:45 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
At what point did I ever tell you I was a Republican? I'm not registered for any political party actually. Why such giant leaps in logic?


The "giant leaps in logic" is you're a bad troll.

Labeling. Posturing. And making assumptions that neither said or implied.

...Red herring...


I called what I felt best described you. Much as you have repeatedly called me both a dinosaur and a caveman. So we're both labeling. Next.

Posturing? O...k? How do you define that? Better yet, please quote an example of my "posturing"? Or were you just blowing smoke?

Ok, making assumptions. Again, an example please.

I welcome intelligent discussion. If I can find it. So please, give some examples, back up your statements, and we can have the discussion. If not, you will have demonstrated you have no interest in a discussion, merely in demonizing your opposition.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Tixam Quri
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#267 - 2013-06-06 08:27:01 UTC
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
It's not something that traditionally appeals to women, there's a stigma attached as well as the fact that there's not much character customisation after the creation screen.

if you want more women to play this game, you need avatar interaction within stations and vanity items for them.

Sad but true :(


I am a new player and have been trying to get my wife to play EVE...

We have been playing MMO's together for about 7 years... Even though she is a big sci-fi fan this is exactly the case for her.

We both tried EVE about a year ago and she got bored within the first 30 minutes....

I haven't given up yet though.

Jafit McJafitson- "try scamming people. it's like PvP, but with words. Their greed is your warp scrambler, your lies are your autocannons."

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#268 - 2013-06-06 08:33:37 UTC
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
We have all these different ship skins lying around unused. If you could customize your ship's color scheme and some of the other patterns or textures, every woman would be flying around high-sec playing this game to show their ships to each other.


The missing potential are drones: make them cute like pets. Idea

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#269 - 2013-06-06 08:34:20 UTC
Tixam Quri wrote:
Tsukino Stareine wrote:
It's not something that traditionally appeals to women, there's a stigma attached as well as the fact that there's not much character customisation after the creation screen.

if you want more women to play this game, you need avatar interaction within stations and vanity items for them.

Sad but true :(


I am a new player and have been trying to get my wife to play EVE...

We have been playing MMO's together for about 7 years... Even though she is a big sci-fi fan this is exactly the case for her.

We both tried EVE about a year ago and she got bored within the first 30 minutes....

I haven't given up yet though.


A suggestion, if I may? My wife and I have begun tag teaming the new exploration sites. One of us has the Relic Analyzer, one of us has the Data Analyzer. And we can grab the Loot Spew together to maximize our profits.

Another thing? Do not let her train logi skills early on. Normally these are great skills to learn, but it's a great way to make newbies lose interest, because it's boring as hell.

Then make her train up basic weapon skills, and find out which ones she likes dynamically the most. Then train her up in that, and the ships that go with it. Her characters race is irrelevant.

The gist of this is: Find the aspects of the game she finds fun, and work on those.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#270 - 2013-06-06 08:51:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
See, what all that means is, that if you are joining a group of people, let's say, ten of them.

You have a problem with how, let's say, 8 of them behave.

Are they the problem, or are you?

You are, because you came into a group and are asking 8 people to change how they behaved before you got there, just for your sake.


Let us look at a hypothetical example. there are 8 people in your group who like telling off-colour jokes including ones about large breasted men, or things to do with hot grits, or how funny dead babies are. Let us imagine for a moment that I lost a baby to a misdiagnosed food allergy and as a result I don't like baby jokes. The 8 whose behaviour I don't like are my problem. I will ask them to stop with the dead baby jokes, "hey guys, I lost a baby, so those baby jokes are really not cool, could you can them please?". If they tell me to get stuffed, I will leave. It is really that simple. You can't then go and generalise that I was "the problem". The problem is that there are people who tell baby jokes and someone who doesn't appreciate baby jokes. The solutions available include stopping the baby jokes, or losing the person who doesn't like those jokes. No, I am not saying you were actually telling dead baby jokes, this was only a hypothetical example.

What if I join your group of 10 and I have a problem with how you behave, and two of your friends say that they don't like it when you behave that way, but it never bothered them enough to speak up about it? As another hypothetical example, you might have a habit of using the C-word to describe people you don't like, and until I spoke up about it the other guys in your group just accepted that you have a potty mouth, and as the leader of the group they chose not to challenge your status. Am I the problem or are you?

What is the cutoff percentage for the number of people in your own group to speak up about an issue that I, the newcomer, raise, before the problem is the group and not me? Or is the problem always me because noone raised the issue until I spoke up?

Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#271 - 2013-06-06 09:04:49 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The gist of this is: Find the aspects of the game she finds fun, and work on those.


For some people, there is a sense of abandoned promise when we go through the steps of creating the character, then find that there is nothing to do with that character for the rest of the game! There is no interaction at the character level, so we can't even use EVE as a fancy IMVU. There is just our character standing or sitting in the captain's quarters.

As for logistics, I happen to find logistics quite rewarding. I also play healer style characters in fantasy RPGs, and I almost always resort to Sentinel class in Mass Effect because I suck at FPS. I am a logi in DUST too. But you are right about trying different things to see what people like. The catch is that some people want more from a sci-fi game than only flying around in spaceships.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#272 - 2013-06-06 09:14:40 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
The gist of this is: Find the aspects of the game she finds fun, and work on those.


For some people, there is a sense of abandoned promise when we go through the steps of creating the character, then find that there is nothing to do with that character for the rest of the game! There is no interaction at the character level, so we can't even use EVE as a fancy IMVU. There is just our character standing or sitting in the captain's quarters.

As for logistics, I happen to find logistics quite rewarding. I also play healer style characters in fantasy RPGs, and I almost always resort to Sentinel class in Mass Effect because I suck at FPS. I am a logi in DUST too. But you are right about trying different things to see what people like. The catch is that some people want more from a sci-fi game than only flying around in spaceships.


Responding to this first, because my reponse to your post above will be a wall of text.

#1, there is DUST. Luckily, it is free. If you want a more personal perspective, that is where I would point someone. DUST is also, despite some opinions, actually a lot of fun.

Idk, logi drives me crazy because short of a huge fleet pvp situation (which anyone with a T1 logi is NOT getting involved in too often), most of the time you can set orbit on the fleet anchor, set reps, and afk. Not in incursions, obviously, you have to rotate reps around, but again, that's not something newbies can get into with their available ships. Logi in DUST is really asking to get sniped though. Hopeless laser wielder myself.

But for those who can't/won't play DUST ( I know one guy who would love to, but can't, epilepsy), and don't like flying in spaceships... EVE is not for you. Sad answer, but it is what it is.

I like this game precisely because it is such a macrocosm of the setting. I love flying around in ships that cost more than entire planets' GDP. Capsuleers might as well be gods, even the shifty carebears among us. For the microcosm, there is DUST. If neither appeal to you... well, sadly there is a shortage of decent sci/fi style MMOs out there, for some reason, they tend to crash and burn pretty hard.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#273 - 2013-06-06 09:18:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The catch is that some people want more from a sci-fi game than only flying around in spaceships.


+9000

Space is vast, so vast we'll never see the end of it.

The least we can do is see what can fill it where we can.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#274 - 2013-06-06 09:19:18 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Quote:
I'd say it's hard to estimate, myself. THere are some out there who consider the mere mention of "I'm a woman" to be "Grrl gamer taking advantage lol drama!".


I'm not in that category, but the first time someone tells me to tone down my language (I am quite profane in game), the knives come out. That kind of crap doesn't fly with me, certainly not with corpmates. This a game for adults.


Today's adults? The same "adults" who never learned manners or etiquette?

In my day adults didn't cuss in mixed company. That was more than rude, that was uncouth. That was what trailer trash did.

Gentlemen did not cuss nor talk trash nor even politics among the ladies in my days. Gentlemen also were properly introduced to the ladies, otherwise they wouldn't talk with them.

So be careful about definitions about what is and isn't adult, even among adults. It depends when and where you were born and raised. Where I lived, upto the 70s, children were still taught to bow and curtsey. And you could tell who were trailer trash or not by how they addressed adults, "sir" or "ma'am".

And where i grew up, if a girl threw a punch at a guy, he was expected to throw one back, and if he held back, it was an insult and implication that the girl was weak, which was rude. generally between guys and girls there werent any "expected" behaviours, i grew up with mixed parties and sleepovers ight up until highschool when we all started moving away for college, heck, high school, i can remember some of the meanest mouths were from the girls, but of course this seems like it was more a communities attitude than a generational thing, as my and my friends behaviours between eachother has been remarked as "weird" in several ways by an anthropologist working at a local college, when talking about "societal norms".

but here i am 5am ranting, i apologize if the paragraph is illegible or if i pressed quote on the wrong post, 74 hours awake running inventory for a shoe store, 5 minutes left on break.
Nariya Kentaya
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#275 - 2013-06-06 09:29:28 UTC
Ace Uoweme wrote:
Count of MonteCylon wrote:
We have all these different ship skins lying around unused. If you could customize your ship's color scheme and some of the other patterns or textures, every woman would be flying around high-sec playing this game to show their ships to each other.


The missing potential are drones: make them cute like pets. Idea

Drones are already adorable, my Warrior IIs are named Jeffrey, Bob, Lucas, Sally, and Gizmo. I imagine when i log off Jeffrey gets into all sorts of trouble, Lucas being forced to babysit all of them, and Gizmo tricking everyone into going on a faroff worldwide advetnure.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#276 - 2013-06-06 09:31:55 UTC
I take what I said back, about the thread being useless because it fails to confront any of the perpetrators.
Seems we've got one right here.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#277 - 2013-06-06 09:32:49 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
And where i grew up, if a girl threw a punch at a guy, he was expected to throw one back, and if he held back, it was an insult and implication that the girl was weak, which was rude.


Guys here who hit the wife or girlfriend, can expect Bubba to show up at the door for a little 1 and 1 action. And Bubba could either be old skool with a baseball bat, or new skool with a Glock.

The rule being: don't mess with family.

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#278 - 2013-06-06 09:34:48 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
See, what all that means is, that if you are joining a group of people, let's say, ten of them.

You have a problem with how, let's say, 8 of them behave.

Are they the problem, or are you?

You are, because you came into a group and are asking 8 people to change how they behaved before you got there, just for your sake.


Let us look at a hypothetical example. there are 8 people in your group who like telling off-colour jokes including ones about large breasted men, or things to do with hot grits, or how funny dead babies are. Let us imagine for a moment that I lost a baby to a misdiagnosed food allergy and as a result I don't like baby jokes. The 8 whose behaviour I don't like are my problem. I will ask them to stop with the dead baby jokes, "hey guys, I lost a baby, so those baby jokes are really not cool, could you can them please?". If they tell me to get stuffed, I will leave. It is really that simple. You can't then go and generalise that I was "the problem". The problem is that there are people who tell baby jokes and someone who doesn't appreciate baby jokes. The solutions available include stopping the baby jokes, or losing the person who doesn't like those jokes. No, I am not saying you were actually telling dead baby jokes, this was only a hypothetical example.

What if I join your group of 10 and I have a problem with how you behave, and two of your friends say that they don't like it when you behave that way, but it never bothered them enough to speak up about it? As another hypothetical example, you might have a habit of using the C-word to describe people you don't like, and until I spoke up about it the other guys in your group just accepted that you have a potty mouth, and as the leader of the group they chose not to challenge your status. Am I the problem or are you?

What is the cutoff percentage for the number of people in your own group to speak up about an issue that I, the newcomer, raise, before the problem is the group and not me? Or is the problem always me because noone raised the issue until I spoke up?



Alright, wall of text incoming.

You are correct in several premises early on. Yes, if you dislike dead baby jokes (also WTF with the hot grits? Shocked That's a new one to me), then you are correct to remove yourself from the setting should they tell you to go get stuffed. Thing is, that isn't the choice that a lot of people make. It's those people that I do object to, and we both know full well that they do exist.

When someone, regardless of who or what they are, is the newcomer in a social setting, the onus is on you, like it or not. That is the reality of the situation. Ignoring reality for an ideology never works. You work with reality, not against it.

As the newcomer (I can't think of any examples where I won't get flamed, yeesh. Wait I know, let's go with cops) in a police precint, you will be viewed with, however welcoming the introductions might be, with suspicion. And rightly so, you are an unknown element. You may be, from the perspective of those attempting to judge the worth of a new member, a problem, a discipline case, a troublemaker, a slacker, etc, etc. You could be any one of a number of things that threatens their cohesion as a police unit.

So, once again, like it or not, you have to earn their respect and their acceptance. For some people, it might come slower than others. But at some point, subconsciously the group decides that you are "in". This might be part of a public acceptance, like in a fraternity or sorority, or it might just be one day the rest of the squad invites you to go out for a drink with them.

So you can either play their game, and work your way into their group. Or you can leave, and go join Internal Affairs or something. (this represents telling them all to get stuffed in return, and looking for a different corp). Both are your decision.

It all revolves around what you are capable of tolerating. Are dead baby jokes where you totally draw the line? You only have two choices. Get over it, or find somewhere where they don't tell dead baby jokes. Or eat... hot grits? Anyway, moving on.

I'm the kind of person that is pretty difficult to genuinely offend. I don't see anything anyone says on the internet as something to get offended over. I believe very strongly that no adult ever died of hurt feelings. So my tolerance is pretty high.

But when people with low tolerance make the conscious choice that the onus isn't on them, that it's on the group they are trying to join... that causes drama. Idk about you, but were I a corp leader, no one person is worth significant corp drama. It's much easier and more economical to just sever that at the root, and find another player who won't cause friction. That's just human nature, get rid of the problem, and move on with your life. I can't blame anyone who ever kicked a female from their corp if drama started, that was their decision as leaders. If people don't like it, they can vote with their feet and leave. But as the leader, that person would have every right to make the decision.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#279 - 2013-06-06 09:36:28 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
The catch is that some people want more from a sci-fi game than only flying around in spaceships.


+ to this.

Shall I tell you a super sekrit?

I don't like sci-fi games.....there....I said it!

So, why you might ask do I play Eve?

Because, Eve is not really a sci-fi game. Because Eve lets me do anything I want, the fact that if I undock I am in a ship is secondary.

Added to that, space in eve looks awesome..the warp tunnels are amazing, and omg the jump gate animation!

But mostly, what I do in eve has very little to do with sci-fi, or ships, apart from the fact that the products happen to be ships.

Seeing as we are allegedly such a bunch of social misfits, eve requires a surprising amount of social interaction.

"It's not what you know, its who you know" is very true in eve.....the guy who lets you through that gate camp cos you saved his behind last month, the guy who remembers the hours you spent helping when he was a newbie, the one who remembers you going out of your way to help when they got lost that one time in w-space...the person who remembers that you stole their stuff, and recognises your name as you hop in with a freighter.

Hell, even "Hey, I have seen your posts on the forums, you are a serious troll!" can pay off at the right time

Information is key in eve too...and to get the best information requires social interaction, whether of the nefarious kind or not.

Finally, despite all the grumpy people on the forums (Hai thar! *waves*) Eve has the most awesome people in it, regardless of corp or alliance tag. Choose your friends (and your chat channels) wisely and you will run into people who are amazing fun to be round, with the added bonus of getting to blow ships out of the sky with them! Choose badly and you end up in some sort of weekend trip from the zoo...although, that can be its own kind of fun.
Ace Uoweme
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#280 - 2013-06-06 09:42:46 UTC
Nariya Kentaya wrote:
Drones are already adorable, my Warrior IIs are named Jeffrey, Bob, Lucas, Sally, and Gizmo. I imagine when i log off Jeffrey gets into all sorts of trouble, Lucas being forced to babysit all of them, and Gizmo tricking everyone into going on a faroff worldwide advetnure.


This is adorable...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5gMQi8emxc

He dances with you.

He tweets.

He flies with you on your flying mount.

He even packs a mean punch...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHtk9iFts3Y

_"In a world of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." _ ~George Orwell