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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#1161 - 2013-05-19 02:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
Daniel Plain wrote:
Roime wrote:
4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.

i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.


You'd die within 10 seconds (remember, NPC aggro switching Blink) but ye, you have a point. Also, gl to anyone killing serpentis overseer in 4/10 with anything below 600 dps (while tanking full spawn).

Basically, as folks have already said, this change is crap - guys with tengus in hisec will now switch to cerbs, ishtars or maybe drakes (can they enter?) and carry on their marry way. However why is no one thinking of frecking lowsec? We're pretty much f****d since cloakie tech3s at least gave you the option of travelling around and, you know... exploring... and with covops fits dps is far below anything allowing for fast farming. With this change and tech3's out of way its back to mwd+cloak days of isthar I guess, but why this change was needed and what good it will bring is beyond me. If they are trying to force 'cooperative game-play' on people they are totally doing it the wrong way.

Overall, I honestly don't know what's going on through heads of people in CCP. Odyssey is in my eyes a major letdown in terms of exploration content which they boasted about so much in announcements. I mean, look at what 'explo' content we got:
- an overhaul of existing scanning mechanics with tools being taken out (DSP, list of sigs in system) and more emphasis put on 'bling' (ye sure, it's fun to have sigs on overview, but having to rotate 360 all the time to get a feeling for those sigs is ANNOYING
- moving of gravs to anomalies making them infinately more dangerous in systems and constellations where area control is problematic
- a silly mingame (ok that one has potential in some future whcih may or may not come).


If their intention was to prevent cherry picking sites they could have made a change as simple as randomising signature strengts and voila, suddently everyone's got the same chance to be the first one to probe down a ded. And if you don't want high value drop plexes in hisec solution is even simpler - move em to lowsec.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1162 - 2013-05-19 02:52:54 UTC
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Roime wrote:
4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.

i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.


You'd die within 10 seconds (remember, NPC aggro switching Blink) but ye, you have a point. Also, gl to anyone killing serpentis overseer in 4/10 with anything below 600 dps (while tanking full spawn).


Done it in a Vexor with 3 Ogre II, I usually abandoned the drones to make it out though.

If they plan to change all exploration to be group then I will probably be un-subbing when that time comes, I am already done with Data and Relic sites because of the change, the last thing that I can do and enjoy doing is DED complexes and C1 and C2 wormholes if they change those to force a group play I will un-sub and end my EVE career.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#1163 - 2013-05-19 03:30:11 UTC
Zelfor wrote:
Wormhole resident here...

Scanning is an integral part of living in wormholes, and I applaud an efforts to take the pain out of scanning while retaining the element of skill and reasonable effort.

The changes thus far are mostly good, but as others have mentioned, there are a few issues that stand out as confounding our standard operating methods when scanning in wormholes.

First: 8 probes. It's been mentioned, we should be able to choose the number we want.
Why? Some of us use two sets of probes, in different ways, at the same time, to scan. Sometimes we only want to do a quick scan with a single probe, or just want to keep an eye out for signatures.

The bigger issue:

I don't really mind launching 8 probes at once all that much, that's what I do 95% of the time.
I would like the checkboxes beside the probes back to de/select probes so that I can manipulate multiple groups of probes at once.

I highly object to having the two default probe formations be the only ones available. They are useful for some people, however, a 3rd option of launching them all in the same exact spot would make it orders of magnitude easier for us to configure the probe formations that we commonly use... not the ones you've given us. With the current available formations, probes are all over the place, and require a lot of clicking and mouse movement to reconfigure, not to mention the annoyance of having some probes at different altitudes, which makes it far harder to configure a nice 2D scanning pattern, as many of us like to use.


WELCOME TO EVE ONLINE.

WHERE CCP DOESNT ACTUALLY PLAY THE GAME AND KNOW HOW PLAYERS PLAY.
DeLindsay
Galaxies Fall
#1164 - 2013-05-19 04:06:12 UTC  |  Edited by: DeLindsay
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Manssell wrote:


What really bugs me is that this drive to force team play is actually the most unsandboxy thing CCP has done since I've been playing the game. If someone can run a site solo, the so be it. Why is it CCP now thinks that they should be dictating through arbitrary game mechanics like ship restrictions how a player must do PVE and with whom?


Don't you know. CCP wants to change Eve to:
LF2M 4/10 DED, need logi and tank. Convo for fleet invite!

ROFL! If you can't solo a DeD 4 in a non-T3 ship then you should just gimme all ur stuff and quit Eve, your bad. I can solo a Highsec DeD 4 Like in Deltole (which is what they're referring to) in a damn AF, you can at least do it in a HaC/T1 BC.

The Operative: "There are a lot of innocent people being killed in the air right now".

Capt. Malcolm Reynolds: "You have no idea how true that is".
Voith
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1165 - 2013-05-19 04:41:02 UTC
Real ~~~Pros~~~ use T1 Cruisers to solo 4/10s.
Sarah Olson
Alpha United Industries Inc.
#1166 - 2013-05-19 04:44:25 UTC
Sylvia Nardieu wrote:
Daniel Plain wrote:
Roime wrote:
4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.

i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.


You'd die within 10 seconds (remember, NPC aggro switching Blink) but ye, you have a point. Also, gl to anyone killing serpentis overseer in 4/10 with anything below 600 dps (while tanking full spawn).


The Serpentis overseer in the 4/10 can be killed with far less dps than 600. I've done the site with a tech 2 fitted Retribution and killed the overseer with just over 200 dps without even hitting his weak resists. Its far from efficient but certainly doable and full room agro is no problem in an AF.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1167 - 2013-05-19 05:01:52 UTC
Hola there high sec "explorers" welcome to an MMO...
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1168 - 2013-05-19 05:49:50 UTC
Jenn aSide wrote:
welcome to an MMO...

MMORPG
There is 2 meanings for this
1st Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game
2ns Mostly Men Online Role Playing Girls

I will expand on the first one.
Why should I have to be in a fleet to play an MMO, there is plenty of room for solo in a MMO world and just because you do not meet another player does not mean there is not player interaction.
People who like to play the market are in an extreme style of PVP, and there player interaction is limited, yet they have to compete with thousands of other players at a time.
Explorers (High Sec or any where else) have to compete with other explorers, gate camps, roaming gangs and once the loot is obtained they then must compete again with other explorers and market PVPers to sell there loot on the market. They have to be able to do what they enjoy and hopefully not get caught. Player interaction is achieved this way though no direct meeting has occurred.
Some people do not like ship vs. ship PVP, is that wrong of them?
Is this game not a sand box, letting whoever build there own castle in there own way?
No one should be able to tell someone that how they play the game is "wrong", what they define as entertainment is completely up to them.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#1169 - 2013-05-19 05:54:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Daniel Plain wrote:
Roime wrote:
4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.

i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.


1 vexor, 3 sentries, rails, lock from the beacon, 1:15 in the final pocket for me for me, maybe 2 minutes for someone with drone interfacing iv, gallente cruiser iv, and sentry iv.

As soon as the phi overseer dies, so does half the room dps, so you can go loot after sniping it. You'll probably get damped and lose lock partway through fight, your sentries won't care. The first room doesn't even make you turn on the tank.

about all you'd do to a sensible noob with your covops is be able to steal the loots.
Unezka Turigahl
Det Som Engang Var
#1170 - 2013-05-19 06:06:49 UTC
- Just make it so you right click on probe launcher -> configure # of probes to be launched per click from 1-8. Everyone is happy.

- If you're really going to remove DSPs, make the sigs all start off in scan window with their base sig strengths. I don't want to pan my camera around searching for icons to click on.

Not happy about loss of DSP and blocking of T3s from 4/10s. I trained for both specifically to be more competitive in hisec 4/10s. Now instead of an all-in-one Loki, I will use a scanning alt along with a Sleipnir/Gila/Ishtar. You've removed annoyances in the probe launching part of things and added new annoyances that are much worse. To be competitive/efficient you multibox now. Or maybe use an armor tanked ship, so you can fit the new scanning modules and still tank. Or the Gnosis. Multiboxing will be best.

Multiboxing and panning the camera all around clicking on icons. Ugh. Clicks and wrist movements removed only to be replaced with new ones.

Really all probing needed was auto-launch and a way to snapshot your starting formation so you don't have to set up the same thing system after system.
marVLs
#1171 - 2013-05-19 06:31:28 UTC  |  Edited by: marVLs
Seriouslly wtf?!

CCP way: make ships perfect for scanning etc. then ban them from doing those sites....

Edit: Ok with looking at HACs and HDictors with new med slot scanning mods, this change is good. T3s will be OP if they wont be removed from those sites
JetCord
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1172 - 2013-05-19 07:46:29 UTC
tried the new probing mechanic last night and frankly a bit disappointed

Few things that i feel need to be addressed:

1. there is no custom probe formation

2. when getting down to 0.25 AU scan the red sphere thingie is gone and using pin point formation does not feel intuitive compare to the old probing mechanic of using the pyramid shapped method

3 single probe resizing in a pin poin formation feel awkward as now the use the XYZ axis on the box so i cannot know how much overlapping of the probes are

4. we are used to the visual of overlapping probe to help us probing - in pin point formation there is no such feed back

thanks

have not try the hacking part yet
Shilalasar
Dead Sky Inc.
#1173 - 2013-05-19 07:53:31 UTC
But if you can get an orca in you can just put your T3 into the hangar and switch once you are in the site Shocked
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#1174 - 2013-05-19 07:55:41 UTC
Tsubutai wrote:
Roime wrote:
4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.

That may be the intended message, but the actual message is "switch to a HAC/BC/pirate faction cruiser and keep on farming." The problem isn't the sites being accessible to T3s, it's the availability of easily farmed sites with drops of 500m+ in highsec. As long as the sites exist in their current form, they'll be farmed heavily by older/more experienced players. The removal of T3s just means that people who previously lost to tengus will instead lose to Cerberuses or Sleipnirs or whatever.


I obviously agree with you, this change isn't the final solution. But it's a step in the right direction and shows that CCP acknowledges the issues these farmers create and that T3s are overpowered in relation to the site design.

Hisec 4/10s should be moved to lowsec, 3/10s should be copied to lowsec.


Daniel Plain wrote:
i would really like to see a new player in a t1 cruiser do the serpentis 4/10. in fact, i would probably sacrifice a covops just to warp scramble him as soon as he has room aggro.


This is the way and mentality of the hisec bear. Killing noobs instead of helping them. gg

Phi outpost can be done with a meta 4 fit Vexor with no heavy or sentry drones. GSO in the same fit, for the Monastery you'll want sentries, but then you don't really need a tank. I didn't find the Angel 4/10 as a new player so can't comment on that.

.
JetCord
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1175 - 2013-05-19 07:59:03 UTC
Octoven wrote:
JetCord wrote:
New exploration modules
There are Tech I and Tech II variants.


Scan Acquisition Array

Duration Bonus = -10% TI, -20% TII

Scan Rangefinding Array

Scan Strength bonus = 10% TI, 20% TII

Scan Pinpointing Array

Maximum Scan deviation = -20% TI, -40% T II



i noticed that the skill requirement for T1 and T2 version for these modules are the same!

is this intended so that we go straight to T2 version instead of using the T1 version?


I imagine this was set so that those who do not have the skills for T2s yet can properly test both modules with low skills.


ok i accept that but what will be the requirement to use the T2 - so that i can train now and be able to use them whenever people manage to invent and build them Big smile
WingedDoom
Doomheim
#1176 - 2013-05-19 08:55:18 UTC
How about 4/10 in lowsec? They will have same restrictions?
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1177 - 2013-05-19 09:41:47 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
There is one thing that still is missing:
Being able to launch less then 8 probes!
This is VERY important!
In W-space yu can get back to k-space with only 4 probes.
If you lose some probes to the timer or had to jump to safety in an other wormhole and only have less then 8 you will get stuck , even if you have 4 probes left in your cargo hold.
I like the fact you launch them all at once(up to 8 probes) , maybe just change the way you launch to probes to this:
If the launcher has 8 or more probes, launch 8 probes. If less then 8 probes, launch all the probes in the launcher.
Even if you have a set of 4 cores and a set of 4 combats, you still can't get out with the current version on sisi

I rember back when i first started in w-space i was checking a crit hole. A corpie jumped in with seeing it was crit and closed the hole with my probes on the other side.
We had to scan our way out with only the 4 probes in my cargo i had left. We even barly escaped a groep of people in a c6.
It was quite the exciting w-space roam going from home->C5(the crit one)->c5->c6(exit collapsed by inhabitants, we berly escaped)->C5->C5->c4->c3-> somewhere in minimatar space 30 jumps from jita.


O by the way i still can't see any timers on the probes.
Can someone confirm probes don't have timers anymore?
Because scanning a w-hole with 50 sigs can take longer then the probes have timers... .

And there is still not possible to see if the scanner probes are selected in the scanner probe tab after the first scan.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#1178 - 2013-05-19 10:03:27 UTC
Roime wrote:
4/10s are T1 cruiser sites, so this change very welcome indeed. It's EVE telling you to leave hisec sites for the new players they were designed for.


It's a ham fisted approach, it has the vibe of the CCP Greyscale, but I might be wrong here. Probably are.

The farming problem only fully manifested itself once they over buffed the rewards almost hysterically. Looking at you Invuln.

They should have randomized the signatures, and moved the 4/10 to low-sec. These sites are almost perfect starter points for new low-sec dwellers, as they can be completed in a T1 battlecruiser or even a frig gang and don't require a long time to complete.

Locking the gates like this accomplishes nothing, since probing will be lol easy T3 is not a big loss. They were chosen mostly for the scan bonus anyway. Come Odyssey farmers will be in whatever ship is absolute best. No loot for noobs in Drakes. Not like this.
Psychotic Psychosis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1179 - 2013-05-19 10:14:51 UTC
I personally really like the new changes, there is absolutely no fun in dragging buggy arrows around with tons of brackets getting in the way constantly. I like that this new system is just CCP trying to drag people off watching a module cycle and to actually make them do something.

Just my two cents but i really like it.
Sylvia Nardieu
Super Serious Fight Club
#1180 - 2013-05-19 10:21:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Sylvia Nardieu
Sarah Olson wrote:

The Serpentis overseer in the 4/10 can be killed with far less dps than 600. I've done the site with a tech 2 fitted Retribution and killed the overseer with just over 200 dps without even hitting his weak resists. Its far from efficient but certainly doable and full room agro is no problem in an AF.

Well we must have met different overseers because the one I know would tank 200 dps of wrong damage type while picking his nose and laughing at you in most menacing manner. I've had that bugger rep tank 350 dps (cloaky) tengu shooting proper damage types and had to bring another guy into plex to kill it.

My issue with this change is the fact that they are fixing something which is a problem (cherry picking) by introducing pointles ship restrictions.Strategic cruisers are very versatile, yes, they (well, pretty much tengu) are top dogs in exploration but guess what - there will always be a top dog, so when there‘s enough whining about the next one will they restrict access to ded3/4s to gilas and ishtars? Again, cherry picking is the problem, tech 3s are not.
Furthermore, not everything happens in hisec and this change complicates life of lowsec exploration unnecessarily. I can effectively park my tengu in hangar and undock only cerb (put your pirate/tech 2 ship of preference here) if going on an explo roam and wanting to enter ded 3 and 4s. With cerb I have to forget about poking in whs I find so effectively, my options for exploration have been narrowed. All this because of what, hisec issues? Well, f#@$ that mate.

Also this change does nothing for balancing risk and reward since hisec crybabies still keep their 3s and 4s which in guristas space drop really worthwhile stuff (as someone noted, insanely worthwhile and quite imbalanced in value/effort/risk area).

Also,this discussion should move to a new thread.