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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1121 - 2013-05-18 03:35:00 UTC
CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1122 - 2013-05-18 03:44:53 UTC
Alexander the Great wrote:

4) High-end scanning which required a lot of investment in skills and implants will be accessible to almost everyone. .



the billions spent in implants (lg virtue) are crushed to 6 millon value ( 3 scannings mods at 2 million each ). you should also think about the people you screw over with it.

Spending time and isk/money for an alt , specialize them and getting then kicked is not the nice art. I think i will feel betrayed on the 4th July .
Winters Fortis
No GST Please
#1123 - 2013-05-18 03:57:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Winters Fortis
At this rate, exploration will be a profession available to 5-day old alts which can do the high end radars/mags 20% slower than a person with max skills within a few patches. Oh wait.

My hopes for the winter expansion
1. Carriers within a week of training.
2. Make botting for miners legit and put NPC buy orders for trit at 50 ISK/unit.
3. Remove NPC hostiles from all DED sites. When you warp in, you get to select two out of six deadspace modules from a dropdown list. You then solve a complicated maths equation such as 5 + 5 = ? to determine whether you get the module.
4. Make D-scan automated. When a ship shows up, you get an alert sound.
5. Make Gunnery V/Missile Launcher Operation V the only prerequisite for tech II battleship weapons. Remove half the bonuses from gunnery/missile launcher support skills and add them to Weapon Upgrades. Remove Advanced Weapon Upgrades and add the bonuses to Gunnery/Missile Launcher Operation.
6. Tech II Pirate Faction Strategic Modules which allow your shuttle to fit capital sized modules.
7. +10000 attribute implants.
8. Mining Supercapitals which create a specialized version of a jump bridge which sucks all asteroids within 5 stargate jumps into your cargohold, refined at 100% efficiency.
9. Jovian Motherships which can create cynos in high sec.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1124 - 2013-05-18 03:59:12 UTC
Alouette Bistrot wrote:


To the noobs training your toons, think twice about training edge case max skills, the benefits you see in level Vs are probably gonna be lost when CCP makes that aspect of the game easier to do. Max leadership booster alt is like half a year, max scanner is like 2 months. I'll probably only max combat skills from now on.


this advise should be make sticky.
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1125 - 2013-05-18 04:01:57 UTC
Winters Fortis wrote:

8. Mining Supercapitals which create a specialized version of a jump bridge which sucks all asteroids within 5 stargate jumps into your cargohold, refined at 100% efficiency.c.



this could be the t2 rorqual.
Henry Montclaire
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1126 - 2013-05-18 04:07:43 UTC
So, I especially have my ships set up with 14 probes, so that I can launch 7, and have another 7 ready to launch. It saves time, it allows me to decloak and reload probes when I like, and it's a system that works well.

Now, even though I don't have the skills to launch 8 probes, I launch 8 probes automatically, which leaves me with 6 probes in my cargo, and forcing me to hold off the reload for a while longer. I suppose I should just buy two more probes, but hey . . . I liked my seven probe sets . . .
X4me1eoH
AirGuard
LowSechnaya Sholupen
#1127 - 2013-05-18 08:27:39 UTC
Sorry bad english, google translate:
The new scanner interface. It is unclear why the buttons have shifted downward, but oh well get used to. Irritating to a couple of things. First of all there is no separation between the columns in the window reading signatures, and a small window we see something unreadable type: WTA-7unknown sWormh77%. Of course you can make out that this is the first fully nepomestivsheesya signature ID, and the second is that the type of aknoun, just again not vlezzhy, and that it is still wormholes, but the eye for this mishmash of letters, just does not cling. From the first Vzlyad brain perceives this conjoint design as one word and hangs for a few seconds decoding. Make a clear separation between columns. And yet, and to make the columns themselves can be scaled, some narrow, others extend generally return as it was.
Second. If you change the radius of the tubes by pulling the edge of the tube, the scanner radius remains unchanged until you press does not scan. This is inconvenient, it is not clear from the cork 4au I moved to 2 audio or 0.5 au.
Zilero
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1128 - 2013-05-18 09:36:39 UTC
Alouette Bistrot wrote:
I remember back when the mining ships were rebalanced, a few guys I knew that mined were super pissed about it because they had invested so much sp into their ships and now CCP was making it easier to get into barges and stuff. I'm not fully aware of the details since I don't mine, but two guys were pissed enough to unsub and quit eve.

I can see how CCP wants to make it easier for noobs to make that sweet mining cash but to him he felt like he threw away months of training for an edge. CCP took that edge away, lost those players, and in the end probably gained more new players by making mining easier to train into.

Now I'm seeing it happen with my characters, I have two perfect scanners, I need the edge to beat other scanners to wormholes during hole control maneuvers. I need deep space probes to quickly get relative sig strengths, more importantly I need to hope that I have these skills and that my opponents don't have them. This rebalancing is taking that edge away from me, not by nerfing my capabilities but by making lesser trained toons able to compete in this part of the game. When we go on siege ops in wormholes we bring scan alts, characters trained into being the best they can be because a lot rides on how fast you can resolve sigs.

Billions of ISK are won or lost based on the few seconds advantage the approximately 50 days of training gives a perfect scanning toon.

I, and many others, have invested the sp and time and cash money into getting that advantage. You call this an edge case, but to many players it is a standard part of play and it is being heavily diluted.

I'm not gonna quit, but I want CCP to know that you've pissed me off and I know I will get nothing for those months of wasted time, which if you think about it, is just extra revenue for you so I guess I'm happy for you and your companies bottom line.

I'm waiting for the offgrid boosters to be nerfed so I can feel like I lost those SP too.

To the noobs training your toons, think twice about training edge case max skills, the benefits you see in level Vs are probably gonna be lost when CCP makes that aspect of the game easier to do. Max leadership booster alt is like half a year, max scanner is like 2 months. I'll probably only max combat skills from now on.


With the new scanning modules it has already been nerfed. "unscannable" lokis / tengus are now WAY easier to scan down - and you no longer need an expensive implant clone.

There, you just lost SP.
Space Wanderer
#1129 - 2013-05-18 12:47:21 UTC
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.


I can confirm that. Posting a more detailed feedback post with details in a few minutes.
Seth Asthereun
Blank-Space
Northern Coalition.
#1130 - 2013-05-18 12:52:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Seth Asthereun
-when you enter a wh you still get the "warning leaving probes behind" message although it auto-recalls probes back

-when you probe down a sign and warp to it, you still get the signatur at 0,4 AU distance not probbed
Alexander the Great
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1131 - 2013-05-18 12:58:26 UTC
Winters Fortis wrote:
4. Make D-scan automated. When a ship shows up, you get an alert sound.

Actually I'd like to see something like this as a replacement of local chat.
Winters Fortis wrote:
Remove half the bonuses from gunnery/missile launcher support skills and add them to Weapon Upgrades.

Nice analogy. CCP, don't you see how stupid is the skill change you're making (which is "final")?
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#1132 - 2013-05-18 13:19:07 UTC
Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
CCP , please answer me what is happening with the lg virtue implants. In my opinion they will become worthless the day you release the new scanning mods.


With everyone and his dog being able to scan relatively quickly it will be even more important to get a slight edge over other explorers. Especialy when scanning lots of sigs and the dsp gone. So i think virtues might actualy become more popular after the patch.
Space Wanderer
#1133 - 2013-05-18 13:33:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Additional Feedback

With the help of a corpmate I did some more tests and there are a couple of additional issues that I want to point out.


Rangefinding T2 modules

I confirmed experimentally that, using the new modules, it is definitely possible to scan down the so-called "unscannable" ships without using virtue implants.

First of all I checked whether the cap on ships' signature size is still present (it is) and if it is unchanged (it is); so there is no chance for ships to become more "unscannable" than they could become before. After that I fitted a covop with various scan strength modules, including a cheap +6% implant. On the other hand I had a slot left for a point, and I used only a T2 launcher instead of a sisters launcher. Using 8 probes in a decent configuration (which of course is not the standard CCP configuration) I have been able to find it. Without using any virtue implant.

Now, I understand that it could be by design, but still it should be explicitly stated instead of being slipped through the cracks, like this. This certainly will kill the market for virtue implants. In any case what I do not really understand, is why the new modules are not active? It makes sense that people who want such advantages in scanning (do not forget the crazyness of the pinpointing modules) should stay uncloaked.


Predefined formations

While hunting for the above mentioned ship, I needed a specific probe formation to optimize the scan strength. And I realized that it now takes me at least THREE TIMES more than before to actually set the probes in that formation. This is simply crazy. I can understand that CCP put into the game some predefined formations for noobs, but why the **** have they removed even the simple "all probes in the same spot" formation which could be at least used to compose custom formations in a decently fast way? I reiterate, on the scanning interface CCP is dropping the ball hard. They are making the interface easier to use for newbies, but HARDER to use for advanced users. You must at least add an "all probes in the same spot" starting formation.


Seriously CCP, I can understand removing DSPs, I can understand changing game mechanics, I can understand inroducing new modules. For all of this there could be valid reasons. But willingly dismantle an already implemented interface and making it even harder to use for advanced users in order to accomodate the newbies? Do you even realize how silly that sounds? I reiterate that you are dropping the ball really hard here. This position of yours on the interface is utterly undefendable.
Space Wanderer
#1134 - 2013-05-18 13:36:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Johan Toralen wrote:
With everyone and his dog being able to scan relatively quickly it will be even more important to get a slight edge over other explorers.


That may apply only in empire, and anyway the virtues are not going to give you that edge, the pinpointing modules are going to flatten any edge that virtues could give you.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1135 - 2013-05-18 14:58:38 UTC
But by the same token wouldn't Virtues make it even easier? They'd still have some value, but obviously not at their current level if you don't need them for "unscannable" OGBs.
Johan Toralen
IIIJIIIITIIII
#1136 - 2013-05-18 16:18:01 UTC
Space Wanderer wrote:
That may apply only in empire, and anyway the virtues are not going to give you that edge, the pinpointing modules are going to flatten any edge that virtues could give you.


I'm getting where you're coming from in regard to scanning down ships. But question was simply wheter virtues will be worthless. And i don't think so. With the changes coming i think they will be attractive for PVE. Fitting the new modules on a combat fit might not be viable for finding combat sites. It's the imps that could make a difference competing with others for the sites. It's all about the speed.
Anita1
Meinungsfreiheit
#1137 - 2013-05-18 16:57:36 UTC
i dont want to launch 7 probes and now you made it worse and i need to launch 8 probes, really ccp, start reading our posts, make it optional
Jack Ogeko
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#1138 - 2013-05-18 17:00:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Ogeko
there are psychiatric hospitals more normal then this changes
Maggeridon Thoraz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1139 - 2013-05-18 17:39:39 UTC
Space Wanderer wrote:
Johan Toralen wrote:
With everyone and his dog being able to scan relatively quickly it will be even more important to get a slight edge over other explorers.


That may apply only in empire, and anyway the virtues are not going to give you that edge, the pinpointing modules are going to flatten any edge that virtues could give you.


confirming that.
3 pinpointing modules T2 get you so so much sigstrength , getting easy over 200... thats insane !!!
Space Wanderer
#1140 - 2013-05-18 18:42:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Space Wanderer
Durzel wrote:
But by the same token wouldn't Virtues make it even easier? They'd still have some value, but obviously not at their current level if you don't need them for "unscannable" OGBs.


Johan Toralen wrote:
With the changes coming i think they will be attractive for PVE. Fitting the new modules on a combat fit might not be viable for finding combat sites. It's the imps that could make a difference competing with others for the sites. It's all about the speed.


Maggeridon Thoraz wrote:
3 pinpointing modules T2 get you so so much sigstrength , getting easy over 200... thats insane !!!


(replying to all three at the same time)

Yes, I understood that you guys were talking about PVE, and my reply was targeted at that. So, let me clarify it.

First of all, I assume that both of you are talking about competition in empire (in lowsec and nullsec the situation is different, you are much more worried that the competion will simply blow you up than be faster than you... Big smile). But since people go for crazily expensive fits in empire (see lvl4s) what you say is not impossible. However, let's see what the actual benefits of virtue implants are.

What they do is to increase your scan strength by about 33% (if you use the complete set). And what use is scan strength? It certainly impacts the amount of sigs that you are able to scan to 100%, but if you are out exploring I assume you are already able to scan out all the sigs you are interested (and anyway, it's very easy to get a fit that would allow you to scan out even the 1% sigs). The other reason why it is important is because it reduces the amount of scan cycles needed to find the site (meaning that with a scan strength high enough you might be able to find a site at 1AU or 0.5AU instead than having to drop all the way to 0.25AU). So, an increase in scan strength might allow for such a transition. Which seems a good thing. However...

...with the new pinpointing modules you can easily scan a site at 8AU, drop the probes all the way to 0.25AU and STILL keep a fix on the signal. So, no matter your scan strength, you need only two scan cycles to find a site if you use the pinpoiinting modules.

Of course this is valid according to the current state of pinpointing modules. Things might change before realease, if this feedback is acted upon.

However Maggeridon, I am not sure where you get that 200 scan str. With 3 rangefinding modules (I assume you meant that, not the pinpointing modules, which do not affect scan str) and a covop, fully skilled, with also rigs in addition to 3 modules and sisters core probes I get at 160.